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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ouch...

A good opportunity for us, perhaps, to divert the conversation to someone else's screwup... :)

Coast Guard, Wayfarer Marine respond to sailboat aground off Lasell Island | PenBay Pilot

I'm guessing there will be a serious reduction in her $2.4 million asking price....ARCHANGEL is a Hylas 70, I saw her in Hampton a couple of years ago prior to the start of the Caribbean 1500, where she was the "flagship" of that year's fleet...

David Walters Yachts

I can't imagine being aboard a boat of that size, and having the rig come down, that would have to be a terrifying experience... Amazing no one was seriously hurt, or worse...

I'd love to see how that area is displayed on electronic charts of the area, how it compares with my paper, whether there is any discrepancy... Nigel Calder addresses the issues that arise in the conversion of existing charts to digital in HOW TO READ A NAUTICAL CHART, and actually uses the ledge at the entrance to Camden harbor, just off Wayfarer, as an example of how the cartography of an area of such detail can be altered on an e-chart... If anyone could post a pic of how the detail of the area around E Goose Rock shows electronically, it might be interesting...

How accurate are our charts? - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003

Sounds like he was headed for Pulpit Harbor perhaps? I'm guessing since it is a charter yacht, they'd probably been thru that passage numerous times before... I'm gonna hazard a guess that a degree of 'complacency' might have played a role in this one, perhaps a somewhat casual reliance on waypoints used previously thru a rather tight passage for a boat of that size, a possibility that would be even further increased by the absolutely perfect weather and sailing conditions at the time... The tide may have just begun to ebb out of Penobscot Bay around that time, which could have played a role in setting them down on that ledge, presuming they were on a course to just clear the southern tip of Lasell Island...

At any rate, whenever a very experienced professional captain puts a multi-million dollar yacht on the rocks in a heavily trafficked, well charted area, on a perfect summer afternoon, it should serve as a cautionary reminder that the sort of electronic 'piloting' most of us are doing today certainly isn't foolproof... :)

I'd really be curious to see what the keel looks like... Wouldn't at all be surprised, if some rep from Hylas is already at Wayfarer, with a 150 X 10 foot 'curtain' at the ready... :)

Just glad nobody was hurt, boats can always be fixed...

 

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Ouch...

A good opportunity for us, perhaps, to divert the conversation to someone else's screwup... :)

Coast Guard, Wayfarer Marine respond to sailboat aground off Lasell Island | PenBay Pilot

I'm guessing there will be a serious reduction in her $2.4 million asking price....ARCHANGEL is a Hylas 70, I saw her in Hampton a couple of years ago prior to the start of the Caribbean 1500, where she was the "flagship" of that year's fleet...

David Walters Yachts

I can't imagine being aboard a boat of that size, and having the rig come down, that would have to be a terrifying experience... Amazing no one was seriously hurt, or worse...

I'd love to see how that area is displayed on electronic charts of the area, how it compares with my paper, whether there is any discrepancy... Nigel Calder addresses the issues that arise in the conversion of existing charts to digital in HOW TO READ A NAUTICAL CHART, and actually uses the ledge at the entrance to Camden harbor, just off Wayfarer, as an example of how the cartography of an area of such detail can be altered on an e-chart... If anyone could post a pic of how the detail of the area around E Goose Rock shows electronically, it might be interesting...

How accurate are our charts? - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003

Sounds like he was headed for Pulpit Harbor perhaps? I'm guessing since it is a charter yacht, they'd probably been thru that passage numerous times before... I'm gonna hazard a guess that a degree of 'complacency' might have played a role in this one, perhaps a somewhat casual reliance on waypoints used previously thru a rather tight passage for a boat of that size, a possibility that would be even further increased by the absolutely perfect weather and sailing conditions at the time... The tide may have just begun to ebb out of Penobscot Bay around that time, which could have played a role in setting them down on that ledge, presuming they were on a course to just clear the southern tip of Lasell Island...

At any rate, whenever a very experienced professional captain puts a multi-million dollar yacht on the rocks in a heavily trafficked, well charted area, on a perfect summer afternoon, it should serve as a cautionary reminder that the sort of electronic 'piloting' most of us are doing today certainly isn't foolproof... :)

I'd really be curious to see what the keel looks like... Wouldn't at all be surprised, if some rep from Hylas is already at Wayfarer, with a 150 X 10 foot 'curtain' at the ready... :)

Just glad nobody was hurt, boats can always be fixed...

I am a bit surprised that a pro capt would do that too. See, if he had kept his draft at 6 feet like I have been saying, they would have been fine (snicker).

Hey Jon, I understand going from 6-7 kts down to zero would put a lot of stress on the rigging, but I am a bit surprised it demasted the boat. Is that unusual? Does that surprise you?

Brian
 

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I have read a few articles on how our reliance on electronic charts and plotters had increased the groundings, accidents, and sinkings. Once, when paper charts were the norm and you had to take physical readings, you never really knew exactly where you were. You had to fudge it a bit and give known hazards (and some suspected ones) a wide berth.

With the "accuracy" of electronic charts and GPS, many sailors and powerboaters are cutting it a lot closer, thinking that what they see on the chart is really there and that the GPS is telling them exactly where they are on that chart.

This does not take into consideration shifting bars, mismarked hazards, and even other boats that may have sunk there.

I have spent too much time with a paper charts to cut it close, I prefer a good wide safety area around my boat
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Here it is from Garmin Mapsource.

BTW, I have sailed through there many times and always stay close to Lasell I.

Thanks, Tim... no discrepancies that I can see, looks virtually the same as my paper chart of the area...

Hey Jon, I understand going from 6-7 kts down to zero would put a lot of stress on the rigging, but I am a bit surprised it demasted the boat. Is that unusual? Does that surprise you?

Brian
Yes, the dismasting surprised me, as well...

Only thing I can figure, is that the grounding exerted such a violent upwards pressure on the keel-stepped mast, and forced it to buckle... The rig on that boat is carbon fiber, which being somewhat 'brittle' (for lack of a better word), might have been less forgiving than, say, aluminum to such a violent shock... it may actually speak to the integrity and overall strength of the chainplates and shrouds on that boat, that a massive compressive force was put on the mast from the keel, but the standing rigging allowed no movement to help absorb the shock... On the other hand, perhaps the impact did cause a failure of a chainplate, and subsequent loss of the rig... That's the only thing I can think of, at the moment... I suspect we might have a better idea if we'd actually witnessed the grounding occur, but I'm guessing it all started with a dramatic movement upwards of the keel, even a deflection of the bottom by an inch or so might be more than sufficient to cause a failure somewhere else in such a "highly strung" rig...

Be interesting to see what Jeff H or Bob P might surmise...
 

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It looks as if the starboard shroud(s) parted. It's not unusual for the rig to come down in a real dead-stop. There's an awful lot of inertia in the weight of all that structure if it all of a sudden puts strain on one wire/plate/fitting.

Does anyone think it's a copyright violation to post screen shots of nav software? I was going to post a shot of C-Max/Jeppesen charts but though twice about whether they may object.

I've done a lot of sea kayaking around this area. It's the kingdom of ROCKS!:)
 
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It looks as if the starboard shroud(s) parted. It's not unusual for the rig to come down in a real dead-stop. There's an awful lot of inertia in the weight of all that structure if it all of a sudden puts strain on one wire/plate/fitting.

Does anyone think it's a copyright violation to post screen shots of nav software? I was going to post a shot of C-Max/Jeppesen charts but though twice about whether they may object.

I've done a lot of sea kayaking around this area. It's the kingdom of ROCKS!:)
Really? I have seen (and been on a few) hard groundings and never seen a rig come down or worry about it.

Maybe Hylas is experimenting with the B&R rig? (hehe, just a joke, duck and run).

Jon, I am not convinced a single chain plate would bring down that rig unless they had multiple shourds/stays on it... and even then...??? Wouldn't they have to have at least two failures or more? Again, assuming they are not using the B&R rig, am I wrong? I really don't know.

I like your compression theory the best.

Brian
 

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You're probably right. Looking at the picture again, it looks as if the shrouds may actually still be attached. Wasn't there another recent thread in which a fiber mast let go?
 

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Ouch...

At any rate, whenever a very experienced professional captain puts a multi-million dollar yacht on the rocks in a heavily trafficked, well charted area, on a perfect summer afternoon, it should serve as a cautionary reminder that the sort of electronic 'piloting' most of us are doing today certainly isn't foolproof... :)

I'd really be curious to see what the keel looks like... Wouldn't at all be surprised, if some rep from Hylas is already at Wayfarer, with a 150 X 10 foot 'curtain' at the ready... :)

Just glad nobody was hurt, boats can always be fixed...

Hey Jon! I know you like like to find the fault in "electronic piloting", but I don't think that's the demon here.

I hit that rock 13 years ago with a paper chart in my lap. :) I wasn't the first, and Archangel won't be the last.

That is actually a wide(1/4 mile plus) and well traveled passage used regularly by local schooner traffic under sail as well as a good portion of the heavy pleasure boat traffic that cuts a near straight Easterly line from Camen Maine to Pulpit Harbor.

The rock he(we) hit is about 4' under at HW. It's well charted but as we know, if you become a little lazy piloting, rocks get hit.

Down on the docks I heard some talk, "They should put a marker on that rock". I heard that after my episode when I had to run my boat a half mile to Lasell Is and up on the beach to save it.

A marker might help, but with the heavy boat traffic, somebody will hit that rock, now and then. I never will again. :)

Archangel must be built like a tank because despite having to haul off that rock, she's floating fine in Camden right now.

 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Really? I have seen (and been on a few) hard groundings and never seen a rig come down or worry about it.

Maybe Hylas is experimenting with the B&R rig? (hehe, just a joke, duck and run).

Jon, I am not convinced a single chain plate would bring down that rig unless they had multiple shourds/stays on it... and even then...??? Wouldn't they have to have at least two failures or more? Again, assuming they are not using the B&R rig, am I wrong? I really don't know.

I like your compression theory the best.

Brian
Well, I think it's worth noting that it was an in-mast furling rig, affording "infinite push-button reefing abilities..." As Tom's pic shows, it sheared off right above the boom...

In other words, right about where that slot cut in the back of the mast section begins, and continues to the top of the rig.... :)

I suspect the folks at GMT are not happy about this one, at all...

GMT Composites Carbon Fiber Mast Chosen for Hylas 70 | GMT Composites
 

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[snip]

The rock he(we) hit is about 4' under at HW. It's well charted but as we know, if you become a little lazy piloting, rocks get hit.
Tom:

Active Captain has a warning posted for this rock (I think it is this rock) that says the following:

"Give this marked rock extra clearance to the North because of a submerged ledge. Several boats have reportedly gone aground just north of the charted rocks. Also, beware the ebb current can set you southward of your intended course."

At least according to this, it sounds as though perhaps the rock is a little farther north than the chart shows (although I'm a bit suspicious that perhaps that is just a convenient excuse for getting caught by the ebb tide).

Thoughts?

Shame about the boat. Looks like a beauty.
 

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Well, I think it's worth noting that it was an in-mast furling rig, affording "infinite push-button reefing abilities..." As Tom's pic shows, it sheared off right above the boom...

In other words, right about where that slot cut in the back of the mast section begins, and continues to the top of the rig.... :)

I suspect the folks at GMT are not happy about this one, at all...

GMT Composites Carbon Fiber Mast Chosen for Hylas 70 | GMT Composites
Good point Jon. I suspect the inmast caused this accident. WIth the inmast, people are more prone to use their mainsails. Had he been smart, and bought a traditional slab rig, he would have been motoring instead and this accident would have been avoided.

Sorry Jon, couldn't resist...

Brian
 

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Tom:

Active Captain has a warning posted for this rock (I think it is this rock) that says the following:

"Give this marked rock extra clearance to the North because of a submerged ledge. Several boats have reportedly gone aground just north of the charted rocks. Also, beware the ebb current can set you southward of your intended course."

At least according to this, it sounds as though perhaps the rock is a little farther north than the chart shows (although I'm a bit suspicious that perhaps that is just a convenient excuse for getting caught by the ebb tide).

Thoughts?

Shame about the boat. Looks like a beauty.
Wow! We're discussing this same grounding on the CSBB cruisers forum.

This rock has sunk some boats, including mine.

Just a few minutes ago, poster Larry posted that hazzard addition to AC. I'm new to AC and just downloaded it on my Bluechart App. I just checked and it's not on mine because I suppose I have to reload-the download or sign in again. But you must have the new AC software?

Being a local that uses that passage often, I don't think it's an inaccuracy of the charts(I will paste your post over on the CSBB, thanks). I would bet Archangel had no intention of cutting that rock closely and intended to traverse generally through the middle.

At low tide, you're likely to just run it visually staying about an 1/8th of a mile off Lasell Island to the North, and the "obstruction that covers", which is THEN, clearly visible, 1/8th nm.,to the south.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Good point Jon. I suspect the inmast caused this accident. WIth the inmast, people are more prone to use their mainsails. Had he been smart, and bought a traditional slab rig, he would have been motoring instead and this accident would have been avoided.

Sorry Jon, couldn't resist...

Brian
LOL! Purely coincidental, no doubt, that the mast appeared to have failed pretty much precisely at the point where the largest cutout in the mast section is placed... :)

It will be interesting to see what they decide to go with for the new rig... Right now, I'd put at least even money on the possibility of a furling boom, instead...



I must say, however, that boat wears her dinghy on its davits quite nicely... :)

 

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LOL! Purely coincidental, no doubt, that the mast appeared to have failed pretty much precisely at the point where the largest cutout in the mast section is placed... :)

It will be interesting to see what they decide to go with for the new rig... Right now, I'd put at least even money on the possibility of a furling boom, instead...



I must say, however, that boat wears her dinghy on its davits quite nicely... :)

I would definitely go with inboom over inmast. Just was not an option when I bought the boat. Short of cost, not sure I see any benefit of inmast over inboom.

B
 
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