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first sailed january 2008
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So basically my standing rigging job it done very poorly.

They are here now fixing it....I don't know what to say.

The forestay is too short and the backstay too long. So the mast rackes forward their solution is to put an extender plate under the harken furler drum and hacksaw the backstay and put a non swaged fitting. Like a Norseman

Is this acceptable? I just had new sail made and they were measured with the old rigging.

Also I don't know how to handle these things but they didn't do a good job. They out a new gooseneck on and used too short of rivets so my first sail the boom flys off. It scratched the hatch and bent my boom kicker. It also put strain on the mainsheet traveller when the boom was shock loading it and there is a bit of cracking above the bolt where the mainsheet was at the time.

They also didn't reattach my mast wires of which there are a lot. Are they supposed to?

An lastly they had a plate made to hold in the cars for the mainsail which didn't fit so I got one elsewhere. What am I supposed to ask for?
 

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Solution my a**! Do not accept it. Make them take it off and remake the stays! Forestay length is critical. You will forever be doing "work-arounds" because things are not correct.

Charge them for the damage to the boat because the boom came off.

If you hired them to unstep your mast and restep it, they are responsible for everything involved which includes electrical. If you took it apart, they are not rersponsible for it unless that was agreed upon that they put everything back together.
 

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So basically my standing rigging job it done very poorly.

They are here now fixing it....I don't know what to say.

The forestay is too short and the backstay too long. So the mast rackes forward their solution is to put an extender plate under the harken furler drum and hacksaw the backstay and put a non swaged fitting. Like a Norseman

Is this acceptable? I just had new sail made and they were measured with the old rigging.

Also I don't know how to handle these things but they didn't do a good job. They out a new gooseneck on and used too short of rivets so my first sail the boom flys off. It scratched the hatch and bent my boom kicker. It also put strain on the mainsheet traveller when the boom was shock loading it and there is a bit of cracking above the bolt where the mainsheet was at the time.

They also didn't reattach my mast wires of which there are a lot. Are they supposed to?

An lastly they had a plate made to hold in the cars for the mainsail which didn't fit so I got one elsewhere. What am I supposed to ask for?
As an absolute minimum they must fix the rigging so that your sail will fit and be of use.
They should repair or replace the damage done when the boom let go.
They should repair or replace the boom and the boom kicker.
Start photographing and writing every step in this process, you may be going to small claims court.
I would not let them do any other work on the boat except to remedy their errors.
John
 

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a lot of this issues can be resolved by you knowing more and what you want for your boat

for example someone familiar with rigging wouldnt accept a too short forestay and a too long backstay

DIY...learn or do not pay for that work...or get it done properly no matter how long it takes

for example do you know how much rake and tune your rig should have? if you do, then you can tell the rigger more specifics, so he can make better measurements...

now having said that...its hard to see what all went wrong without being there

why did you need work on the gooseneck?

why did you get custom sails instead of say stock bristol sails at any of the numerous budget sailmakers, like rolly tasker, quantum, etc...

here is quite a snappy question but are you on ac45s or something? whats all this about using the old rigging for your new sails?

if your old rigging was stock and GOOD then that means you are safe...you just need to FIX your NEW crappy done rigging...

also if you have the old rigging, why isnt that used for the new rigging measurements?

right?

I can see where a really good sailmaker would take TUNING measurements of your rig and fit your sail to that...

but I dont see where the actual old rigging measurements themselves can be hekpful any way

its the tune and measurements taken while in tune of the rig and sail that can be of advantage

but there are many on here much better riggers and sailmakers even that can add to this thought...

hope it works out
 
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first sailed january 2008
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I hired them to step and unstep the mast. I'm not sure how I like this extender bar.

I had a bigger gooseneck put on because the old one looked weak.

Sail are a better fit because they measured for my boat, they look great, I got a higher weight cloth and they're made here.

I'm not sure what you mean by ac45 or old rigging.

Standing rigging doesn't last forever.
 

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north I wanst trying to be mean...

but your posts are confusing

I recomend google images for many things

for example I know profurl and others USE tangs under the drums...

not all furlers use this...

soooooooo go to google images and type in karken mark 3 furler installation

get ideas.

now do you see that we can get confused when you say your rigger did a bad job and then in another post you say I hired them to unstep and restep the mast

so does that mean rigging too?

I saw you started a thread on the doyle sails, they are great...but then you start this post where you are worried about them fitting your new "bad" riggging

getting new rigging is a good move, but getting crap rigging, done bad even if new is worse than old stuff.

also Im very confused by your last sentence, what do you mean you dont know what OLD RIGGING means?

its obvious that means the rigging previously on the boat before you got these "riggers" to do the job

or no?

did it not come with rigging?

pics of profurl "extender" plates

http://scream.darusha.ca/index.php/fixing-our-profurl-roller-furling/

scroll down this boat for sale add and you can see a perfect pic of the tangs on each side of the turnbuckle
http://www.nichenet.com/spartina/

in this pic you can see some very crude basic stay extender tangs I had made down here for my aft lower stays


hope you dont mind the pic

cheers
 

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Don't want to sound too obvious but is it possible that they installed the head and backstay backwards? That would explain why one is "too long" and the other "too short" by the same amount?
I asked this in his other tread "furler". He answered no, they did not. Seeing would be believing though. I think we may be dealing with some dyslexia or other communication problem.
John
 

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first sailed january 2008
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
They didn't install them backwards. I'm sorry I was confusing everyone. I was in a hurry. Ill try to be clear. And Christian, I didn't think you were being rude.

Doyle made the sails. They aren't involved in this rigging project. I only mentioned them, because when they came and measured and made my sails, they measured for a furler that was properly installed, with one toggle, and it is pretty close to the deck.

The rigging co. Installed a toggle that looks like the one in the above photo. It raises the furling drum about eight inches higher than it should be. So I worry that this will leave a gap between my deck and sail. With my old rigging the sails were perfect this new rigging was supposed to be just like the old, but newer and one size thicker.

Many things got broken and damaged. I only mentioned the unstepping the mast to clarify that I didn't do it myself and that was part of their job. I know some people take down their own mast and bring the wires into the rigger. I hired them from start to finish.

They cut my mast wires and didn't label them correctly so now they are coming back tomorrow to try to reinstall them. I talked to an electrician and hopefully nothing got damaged with them rewiring things wrong. The electrician said led light are very sensitive and it's very possible that something's got damaged.
 

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They didn't install them backwards. I'm sorry I was confusing everyone. I was in a hurry. Ill try to be clear. And Christian, I didn't think you were being rude.

Doyle made the sails. They aren't involved in this rigging project. I only mentioned them, because when they came and measured and made my sails, they measured for a furler that was properly installed, with one toggle, and it is pretty close to the deck.

The rigging co. Installed a toggle that looks like the one in the above photo. It raises the furling drum about eight inches higher than it should be. So I worry that this will leave a gap between my deck and sail. With my old rigging the sails were perfect this new rigging was supposed to be just like the old, but newer and one size thicker.

Many things got broken and damaged. I only mentioned the unstepping the mast to clarify that I didn't do it myself and that was part of their job. I know some people take down their own mast and bring the wires into the rigger. I hired them from start to finish.

They cut my mast wires and didn't label them correctly so now they are coming back tomorrow to try to reinstall them. I talked to an electrician and hopefully nothing got damaged with them rewiring things wrong. The electrician said led light are very sensitive and it's very possible that something's got damaged.
8 inches ... Thats way off. I'd be surprised if the headsail still fits on the foil.

Hopefully you have not paid them yet.
 

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So basically my standing rigging job it done very poorly.

They are here now fixing it....I don't know what to say.

The forestay is too short and the backstay too long. So the mast rackes forward their solution is to put an extender plate under the harken furler drum and hacksaw the backstay and put a non swaged fitting. Like a Norseman

Is this acceptable? I just had new sail made and they were measured with the old rigging.

Also I don't know how to handle these things but they didn't do a good job. They out a new gooseneck on and used too short of rivets so my first sail the boom flys off. It scratched the hatch and bent my boom kicker. It also put strain on the mainsheet traveller when the boom was shock loading it and there is a bit of cracking above the bolt where the mainsheet was at the time.

They also didn't reattach my mast wires of which there are a lot. Are they supposed to?

An lastly they had a plate made to hold in the cars for the mainsail which didn't fit so I got one elsewhere. What am I supposed to ask for?
It all depends on what the arrangement with the rigger was..

If the old standing rig has got correct measurements the normal procedure is to copy the old wires with a small reduction to allow for stretch in new wire.
They should be able to reproduce the rig accurately.

If you asked the rigger to fix existing problems he should have made the necessary measurements before pulling the mast.

Adding a link plate below the furler is normal practice if you need to rise the furler drum for an anchor - so this is acceptable solution for strength.
The sail should still fit as the hoist of the sail will be unchanged, I assume you have adjustable genoa cars.
But if this was a new furler installation you have now lost some inches of your possible max hoist.

Using a swageless fitting is also OK with regards to strength
So both these fixes are OK but it depends on the the outset as described in the start of my post.

If the crack in the traveller is a result of a bad job - the should replace free of charge.

If reconnecting the electric cables is part of the job depends on your arrangement/agreement with the rigger.

From your description it might seem that have met some amateur riggers.
Stuff to check.
The furler drum must be able to articulate in both directions - minimum a toggle between the chain plate and the furler
like in this picture.


That you have a halyard retainer in place to prevent halyard wrap
 

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I dont see the huge issue with having the furler high up...it allows for rollers, or other hardware to be installed under, like a nice bow roller, chainplate combo piece.

(KNUTERIKT hit the nail on the head btw the reason I referenced the OLD RIGGING was if that was intact all you had to do(riggers) was copy the old rigging, places like riggingonly.com tell you to send them the old stuff and you get the new stuff a tad bit shorter compesnating for stretch like he says...)

in fact some prefer it as sweeping waves in bad seas wont slap the sail and cause more damage, also because some boats have pulpits that are way inboard and youll be chafing the heck out of the foot of the sail.

8 inches is a lot but not catastrophic

thats why storm sails are set a few feet off the deck.

my big ussue here is the "riggers" you hired arent really helping much and they are charging you for it...

1.you need your forestay length fixed so your rake is correct(have you the numbers and or correct rake for that) have you measured how OFF7SHORT you are?

2.you need to cut and reswage and or make a new backstay(norseman is fine, most these days prefer hayn hi mod cause its even simpler to use)

did you see the pic of the extender tangs I had made, this is simple...raise it a bit use a toggle and recut backstay...MAKE SURE RAKE IS GOOD before they start cutting and extending...

there are quite a few tuning rigs here...your bristol will have a very upright rake, BUT its deceiving looking at the mast from the deck cause of your sheer...so you must weight something off the halyard(a big wrench) to make sure you are pretty much straight up.1-2 inches I bet is max for your boat.

thats about it...

it doesnt matter how you do this.... but there is no way around all this hooplah.

cheers

ps. can you post pics? I have a very cheap camera and it makes descirbing things and issues so easy...
 

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My mast was re-rigged this season, after the mast install the riggers did not redo the mast electrical connections, I did not expect them to.

As to the plate under the furler, assuming you are talking a few inches I would not think that an issue, my vessel came with a 14" extension under the Harken, I assume to provide room for plow anchor stock raising on the the bow roller, plus better visibility. My prior CS-36T had the same setup.

The back stay needs to be done right, but the other issues you may be stuck with, the choice of rigger being a done deal.
 

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8 inches is a lot but not catastrophic
This is a small boat with a roughly 33' forestay. Raising the foot by 8" is a pretty major change. It also limits the effective sail size, and may not even work well with his current sail since it was cut when the original forestay was installed.

On a CS 36T (which you mentioned) the forestay is over 51', and a 8" spacer under the furler would be like a 5" space under the furler on Scott's Bristol.

I personally wouldn't want any unnecessary spacer under there. One downside of furlers is that they limit effective sail luff length, and there is no reason to make it worse than it already is.
 

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This is a small boat with a roughly 33' forestay. Raising the foot by 8" is a pretty major change. It also limits the effective sail size, and may not even work well with his current sail since it was cut when the original forestay was installed.

On a CS 36T (which you mentioned) the forestay is over 51', and a 8" spacer under the furler would be like a 5" space under the furler on Scott's Bristol.

I personally wouldn't want any unnecessary spacer under there. One downside of furlers is that they limit effective sail luff length, and there is no reason to make it worse than it already is.
I havent mentioned anything about a cs36t

I said 8 inches is A LOT but NOT catastrophic:D
 

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This is a small boat with a roughly 33' forestay. Raising the foot by 8" is a pretty major change. It also limits the effective sail size, and may not even work well with his current sail since it was cut when the original forestay was installed.

On a CS 36T (which you mentioned) the forestay is over 51', and a 8" spacer under the furler would be like a 5" space under the furler on Scott's Bristol.

I personally wouldn't want any unnecessary spacer under there. One downside of furlers is that they limit effective sail luff length, and there is no reason to make it worse than it already is.
THIS is why I have been asking ad neauseum is WTF happened to the old rigging? if new sails were made to those specs why is this so difficult????

cut the new wires to old spec. DONE

was the old stuff thrown away? Im just not getting what the complication is here

I really dont:confused:

sorry for the mini rant
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
They have a reputation up here as being one of the best. I don't know.... There's more that happened than I described. I just don't want to complain so I am focusing on what need stove fixed.

I think it's the hayn piece. He pulled the backstay piece out of a hayn package. This second guy is better and trying to fix things to some degree. He admits it was there fault for being in a hurry. I'm going to have to address the damages once they get the wiring fixed. Don't know how to broach that subject.

It's not letting me post pictures today.
 

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cool hey good luck man...it seems more and more these days that quality work and workers are non existant...

I guess this is a mini lesson learned

I just did this on my boat...took my wires down measured a bunch of times, pin to pin got my wires from rigging only, used some noremans and bobs your uncle

its so simple...

dont worry about sounding like you are complaining...your in the right to do so...
 
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