SailNet Community banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, first post here.

I am trying to figure out if now a days, in the market, there is any VHF hand held radio with AIS (B) transceiver integrated?
I have not been able to find one, as what I am looking is small device that can offer the 2 systems combined. I first thought in a AIS class B as tracking device and in case of distress, but the are that I have to apply this, there is no rescue system at all, and the VHF antennas don't cover most of the coast, meaning that the radio will be used among fishermen to help each other in case of emergency, and well, if we can add AIS, then with the right software is possible to track them and get some other information that can benefit for fisheries management for the fishermen community.

So..do you know any VHF handheld radio with AIS?
Cheers and thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,374 Posts
I don't know if what you are looking for exists, but intuition would suggest it would take quite a bit of power to transmit AIS continuously and a handheld might not have the juice. Receiving may be a different story, but your post say transceiver, not receiver.

Also, not sure what you are proposing that would be better than a simple "handheld" EPIRB.

I do like the DeLorme satellite communicator, if you're suggesting a satellite method of communicating real time. Not everyone has one, so the distressed could only contact the shore.
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
3,506 Posts
Dude, Your in Kenya..rescue services are not there, your FCKD....
 

·
Old as Dirt!
Joined
·
3,486 Posts
Hi all, first post here.

I am trying to figure out if now a days, in the market, there is any VHF hand held radio with AIS (B) transceiver integrated?
I have not been able to find one, as what I am looking is small device that can offer the 2 systems combined. I first thought in a AIS class B as tracking device and in case of distress, but the are that I have to apply this, there is no rescue system at all, and the VHF antennas don't cover most of the coast, meaning that the radio will be used among fishermen to help each other in case of emergency, and well, if we can add AIS, then with the right software is possible to track them and get some other information that can benefit for fisheries management for the fishermen community.

So..do you know any VHF handheld radio with AIS?
Cheers and thanks
An AIS integrated handhld vhf does not yet exist by something like the AISLink PMOB device might satisfy your needs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waterrat

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
Hi all, first post here.

I am trying to figure out if now a days, in the market, there is any VHF hand held radio with AIS (B) transceiver integrated?
I have not been able to find one, as what I am looking is small device that can offer the 2 systems combined. I first thought in a AIS class B as tracking device and in case of distress, but the are that I have to apply this, there is no rescue system at all, and the VHF antennas don't cover most of the coast, meaning that the radio will be used among fishermen to help each other in case of emergency, and well, if we can add AIS, then with the right software is possible to track them and get some other information that can benefit for fisheries management for the fishermen community.

So..do you know any VHF handheld radio with AIS?
Cheers and thanks
Welcome to the Forum. From your post it appears you would like to pass out hand held VHF with AIS class B to the local fishing fleet for a better level of safety. It sounds like a great idea but I don't know the answer to your question. I am guessing someone will come along and help you with a better answer.
 

·
██▓▓▒▒░&
Joined
·
13,645 Posts
Minne-
Surprisingly AIS B doesn't take a lot of power. Typically one data burst, less than one second (after it synchronizes with the other local devices) every ten minutes. So basically it is running at the standby/receive power drain most of the time.

But even then, most handhelds would be hard pressed to put in a real eight hour day. Everyone wants cheap and small and pretty, and batteries aren't any of that.

I'd think that since AIS is meant to track vessels, mainly large or commercial vessels, and commercial vessels will always be required to have a fixed installation, that there's simply been no market demand for a handheld with AIS built into it. Also too easy to drop, lose, have stolen, and then of course the vessel is left with none.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,007 Posts
does not seen that a portable AIS transmitter would be good idea. The signal is to identify and locate a ship/boat. lets say you anchor your ship in the fog then you leave the ship with the transceiver to go ashore in the shore boat. every one else thinks you just moved the ship to the shore and some one runs into the ship at anchor. AIS is not meant for an emergency. it can be an additional aid but should not be relied on in an emergency.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,394 Posts
Would a handheld DSC VHF radio be a solution for rehung nearby boats in an emergency? Check Defender.com Search Results: Dsc handheld for some options in this regard.

If the OP wants nearby vessels to locate him in an emergency, DSC would do it for far less than AIS. On the other hand, AIS might be useful if you were a pirate in the OP's area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,061 Posts
I agree with fallard that dsc handhelds with gps which are readily available would seem to suit your purpose if everyone's radios programmed with mmsi numbers an "all call" would quickly alert all members of the group and provide a position of the caller.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,374 Posts
I have a Standard Horizon handheld with GPS and DSC. I'm told that once you press that red DSC button, with the GPS running too, the battery life is measured in minutes. I pack the ditchbag with batteries. I've come to think it's not much worth pressing, rather my DeLorme and EPIRB are the go to.

Why a handheld and not installed? Theft? Cost?
 

·
Mermaid Hunter
Joined
·
5,689 Posts
I have a Standard Horizon handheld with GPS and DSC. I'm told that once you press that red DSC button, with the GPS running too, the battery life is measured in minutes. I pack the ditchbag with batteries. I've come to think it's not much worth pressing, rather my DeLorme and EPIRB are the go to.
Rant on.

Your first priority for communications in a life raft is an EPIRB (PLB instead if you must). There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will get you help on-site faster when at sea (outside VHF and cell range).

Your second priority for communications in a life raft is VHF. Whether the first SAR resource to show up is fixed wing aircraft, a helicopter, a military or Coast Guard or AMVER ship, or a target of opportunity vessel a VHF allows you to pass status information of your people and to participate in on-scene planning and coordination.

Your third priority for communication in a life raft is a way to keep your VHF charged. Whether you use replaceable batteries or a small solar panel keeping the VHF charged is a major plus.

The value of a satellite device like the DeLorme InReach or a satellite phone is entirely for the morale of those aboard the raft. "Calling in" for help with such a device has many more steps, more manual steps, and more opportunities for error. It takes longer to get AMVER alerted, it takes longer to get SAR deployed, and many of the location technologies won't help the searchers.

Rant off.

In-shore within range of USCG Rescue 21 (which is impressive), VHF-DSC is the way to go, and a fixed radio installation properly connected to a GPS position information source and with a properly recorded and up to date MMSI will result in fast response and again using GMDSS communications (i.e. VHF) makes the rescue faster and more effective and includes you in the planning and coordination.

Your sat phone is not the right answer offshore. Your cell phone is not the right answer inshore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,374 Posts
.....The value of a satellite device like the DeLorme InReach or a satellite phone is entirely for the morale of those aboard the raft.....
Sigh.......

We've been through this before. This statement is simply not true. I'm surprised you stick with it so vehemently.

Yes, EPIRB is #1. VHF is important for on-site rescue coordination. However, a communicator, such as a DeLorme or Sat phone can be used to more quickly validate the EPIRB signal and notify SAR of the exact emergency. There is a big difference in response assets and urgency between a disabled vessel and a heart attack. The EPIRB doesn't distinguish. The DeLorme SOS feature is not a full on substitute for the EPIRB, but their team is far more likely to add timely, actionable info to the USCG before their Pan Pan broadcast to vessels in the vicinity works.

I have all three. The DeLorme is not just a morale booster. I presume we'll continue to disagree. :|
 
  • Like
Reactions: eherlihy

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,479 Posts
I think we might be focusing a bit too much on the safety part of the post. The OP mentioned conservation and co ordination in his post. Click on his profile and occupation is listed as Fisheries Officer. Fisheries Officers are in the business of finding poachers and illegal fisherman/practices and conservation. No better tool for finding and tracking boats than AIS.

I'm guessing the plan is to encourage or even mandate some fishermen to carry AIS for fisheries management, with improved search and rescue capabilities being a side benefit and tool to sell the local fishermen on the idea?

The problem of course, is, who turns on their AIS when poaching or dragging ground nets over coral reefs.

I can think of other tools to track vessels, but they are expensive, probably too expensive for a lot of Kenyan Fishermen.
 

·
Mermaid Hunter
Joined
·
5,689 Posts
We've been through this before. This statement is simply not true. I'm surprised you stick with it so vehemently.
Yes Steve we do disagree.

I will admit freely that my adamance is based on the people who think their consumer device is an acceptable substitute for an EPIRB. It simply isn't. I know you know that.

When official SAR launches they bring their 'A' game. Just because AMVER is first on scene doesn't mean other resources aren't marshaled and on their way.

Unless your sat phone is on the EPIRB registration as a valid device and the duty officer calls you (which I admit would be very reassuring) it isn't validation. Will they take your call? Yes. Will it be noted? Yes. Will someone continue stepping through the validation process? You bet.

Offshore SAR responds the same to a sinking or a heart attack. It would certainly help the responders to know ahead of arrival on scene but not because they are going to bring different equipment or people. The EPIRB doesn't have to distinguish because the responders don't distinguish.

If you do have an EPIRB (as I know you do) and if you trigger it first in an emergency as you should by the time your sat phone call or satellite appliance (e.g. InReach) data splices into the response it is way downstream in time and playing catch up. They are already coming to get you.

I am not saying that consumer satellite devices have no value. I am saying that their value is a distant fourth at best relative to EPIRB, VHF, and charging.

Lets go visit an RCC together and you'll see.

Now inshore if you call in on VHF there is indeed a difference in urgency between out of fuel (take your name and number and have a commercial tower call you), a heart attack (usually civil response with more medical capability), and a sinking (everybody with a flashing light shows up). I'd point out that when @T37Chef was pulling people from the water you needed a program to sort out all the local, state, and Federal agencies who showed up.

Fuel is a common problem. Heck, I've had that problem. On one delivery I used more fuel than planned and was headed from Florida to the Chesapeake on a Moody 38. I've probably told this story before. Fuel consumption (rate) seemed higher than expected as well as hours. I called in early (and this is were a satellite device would have been nice) and they set up a watch schedule (USCG wanted hourly and I talked them into every four hours at change of watch). My big concern was running out of fuel at the last minute in the channel next to the US Naval Amphibious Base in Little Creek VA. I was later told the USCG made their own assessment and started calling people in as a low-cost, low-risk exercise - a training opportunity. Anyway there is a much longer story. My point is that early contact is something that a satellite device (or HF/SSB for that matter) can do better than an EPIRB. In that scenario the RCC would likely push the "validated" button right away if you trigger the EPIRB.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Wow!

Well, first of all, thank you very much to each one for taking your time, your experience and your energy here! A lot of info for me to process, not being exactly on my field, but we have to adapt to the upcoming challenges.
So, yes, Fisheries officer. So, from that you get an idea.
Thanks for the link to the Kenyan authority new boat, thought that one is for the lakes. And seeing all your comments and help, I guess it is legitimate to tell you that it is not kenya, but Somalia to get into the context.
You want to give something to a fishermen ( or sailor) that will help them in case of emergency, but when I mean help, it is that they will get any kind of support in a emegency. At the moment, I can assure you 100% ( I would say more than 100%) than there is no authority, system, private company or whatever as rescue system. No matter what you press, you won't trigger any reaction. So there is no sense to have any EPIRB ( from my point of view) or any other device that will send a satellite signal, as no one on the EEZ of Somalia will never come to help you ( we are talking of 3300 KM of coast line..not bad right?). It is has been only recently that AIS terrestrial antennas have been deployed in very small areas, so you only get around 30nm radius coverage around the antenna.
I don't know how to quote, but just a few posts before Arcb said:
" I'm guessing the plan is to encourage or even mandate some fishermen to carry AIS for fisheries management, with improved search and rescue capabilities being a side benefit and tool to sell the local fishermen on the idea?

The problem of course, is, who turns on their AIS when poaching or dragging ground nets over coral reefs."

You got the point right in the middle! but the small fishermen won't turn off the AIS device for illegal fishing..no one controls the illegal fishing, I can tell you, or no one is worried for a small 8m hull boat. The ones that they do are the IUU vessels, with "fishing licenses" that they get into the EEZ. Why the turn this off? because of the pirates? or because they are trawling just 2nm from the shore? Piracy is not any more as strong as it used to be thanks to these guys European Union Naval Force Operation Atalanta ( I need 10 posts to include links....just google EUNAVFOR.
So, me, I go more for the second option...
Same here with the link: "stop illegal fishing grecko 1" google it

SO then coming back to the topic. Some companies produce this guy( helvete of links!: EMTRAK AIS I100) That for what we want it is pretty useful ( no wiring, easy to be installed, no need instructions or to learn a lot of things), but as I said, if you press the distress no one will come to help you. That's why I thought in small VHF hand held radio DSC with AIS integrated just to have one single gadget ( so fishermen can communicate among them as more or less they are using the same fishing grounds, so like a community network), but seeing your comments, so far the market doesn't offer this product, and another issue could be the battery life, though the AIS signal you can configure to emit every 1 min, 10...30...you choose pretty much. Most of the suppliers mention 5 days of battery life ( depending on configuration) but for our purpose...I think we don't really need to set up a really short interval. So, having one of these AIS and VHF radio hand held, once that I guess that it could be easy to track where they have been fishing, fishing patterns, and if they have a problem , they press the distress button, that it has been configured previously to send a SMS with "EMERGENCY, LAT XXX LONG XXX" to the cell phone that you have selected ( other fishermen ) so, you trigger a system that it will go to people that you have maybe 1nm,2nm ...4nm around you? How do you see this? PLUS you have the radio. The next step would be to encourage those fishermen with these devices to report fuel consumption, catches...and a long etc that for now it looks like the everest.
Any suggestion here that you think can improve my idea?

Once more, thanks to all of you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,374 Posts
Yes Steve we do disagree.

......I am not saying that consumer satellite devices have no value. I am saying that their value is a distant fourth at best relative to EPIRB, VHF, and charging......

.......if you call in on VHF there is indeed a difference in urgency between out of fuel (take your name and number and have a commercial tower call you), a heart attack.......

.....My point is that early contact is something that a satellite device (or HF/SSB for that matter) can do better than an EPIRB. In that scenario the RCC would likely push the "validated" button right away if you trigger the EPIRB.
Seems you actually do agree that Sat communication is more than "entirely for the morale of those aboard". I don't think we're that far apart.

As for "offshore", I agree that anything outside helo range has essentially only one response. 99% of sailors must sail within helo range (100-150nm) and, I'm certain that if you called the local coast guard number and said that EPIRB signal, in the middle of the Gulf of Maine, was yours and your crew had a life threatening injury, a helo would launch before they finished calling the contact list and your home marina. Having spoken to our local USCG commander (at a safety at sea seminar), he indicated that the helo launches (or heads to sea) based on information. He was encouraging everyone to contact them anytime, all the time, because they wanted the info to be able to make a decision for the skipper. They were more concerned for those that don't contact them with whatever means they had. You could also call your local tow company and have them broadcast on ch16 for you. Much quicker. While we may dispute how distant that fourth place might be, you do seem to agree after all. :wink:
 

·
Mermaid Hunter
Joined
·
5,689 Posts
Seems you actually do agree that Sat communication is more than "entirely for the morale of those aboard". I don't think we're that far apart.
In a life raft it is for morale. Inside Rescue 21 coverage satellite devices take a back seat to VHF. Beyond that they take a back seat to HF/SSB.

That's all different than an early pre-emergency contact. I'd still list effectiveness as 1. VHF (in range) 2. HF/SSB 3. satellite devices, especially SMS-only devices like the InReach. Add DSC and the distance between 1 and 2 from 3 gets bigger. Put a life-raft in the mix and charging pushes satellite (recognizing that EPIRB is a satellite device albeit designed and built and operated to life safety standards) to 4th.

Regardless, you have to run with what you have. Contact with USCG or analogous official SAR *before* a scenario becomes an emergency is good management. If that means SMS home to contact officials who text you back than so be it. That it can work doesn't mean there aren't much better solutions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,374 Posts
In a life raft it is for morale. Inside Rescue 21 coverage satellite devices take a back seat to VHF. Beyond that they take a back seat to HF/SSB.....
Pretty sure the helo can out fly Rescue 21 coverage. Do you believe you are as equally likely to get a helo and just as quickly, if you press only an EPIRB 90 miles offshore, as opposed to a Sat communicator identifying a life threatening emergency?
 

·
Mermaid Hunter
Joined
·
5,689 Posts
Pretty sure the helo can out fly Rescue 21 coverage. Do you believe you are as equally likely to get a helo and just as quickly, if you press only an EPIRB 90 miles offshore, as opposed to a Sat communicator identifying a life threatening emergency?
That isn't what I said.

If you are inside Rescue 21 VHF coverage use DSC-VHF.

Beyond that use the EPIRB. Every EPIRB is treated as life threatening. The USCG will launch fixed wing if it will get to you faster, depending on where you are, while the helo is spooling up.

When I get back from the Heaven delivery I'll get you footnotes.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top