You hit the nail on the head - expectations! Those I have surveyed fall roughly into 2 camps. Those utilizing their first flapper valve feel that this unit is far superior to their experience with no flapper. Those who have the smaller diameter speed-only transducer with flapper are amazed that this design allows so much water in. Since I fall in the second camp my expectations have been challenged. I hope you got the chance to view my video. What would you think about sharing one of your thru-hull?
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Airmar / Raymarine DST800 Transducer Issue
We have an Airmar DST800 triducer fitted to our XP38 supplied by Raymarine and installed by a professional marine electronics company of good standing.
The original installation was done when the boat was launched in 2012.
We had a failure of the automatic flap (which prevents water ingress when removing the transducer) after about 2 months and the installer hauled out the boat and replaced the faulty unit at their cost.
During 2013 we again had the flap fail.
In March 2014 we replaced the transducer and through hull with another DST800 during our annual haul out at our own cost, again it was installed by the same company.
After the second use the flap again failed...
From discussions I've had with the installer they don't believe they have done anything wrong, so hence I need to have the discussion with Raymarine. While I'm sure they will come to the party and replace the faulty unit I doubt they will cover any haul out or installation costs which obviously sucks big time!
So I am interested in finding out if other people have had issues with the Airmar DST800 tri-ducer, specifically in regards to the flap failing.
Also what are peoples opinion regarding installation / haul out costs? Should I push Raymarine into covering these..
Information I have from Raymarine is that Airmar made adjustments to the design in 2010 as they had issues with flap failures, I suspect they may not have sorted the issue.
The original installation was done when the boat was launched in 2012.
We had a failure of the automatic flap (which prevents water ingress when removing the transducer) after about 2 months and the installer hauled out the boat and replaced the faulty unit at their cost.
During 2013 we again had the flap fail.
In March 2014 we replaced the transducer and through hull with another DST800 during our annual haul out at our own cost, again it was installed by the same company.
After the second use the flap again failed...
From discussions I've had with the installer they don't believe they have done anything wrong, so hence I need to have the discussion with Raymarine. While I'm sure they will come to the party and replace the faulty unit I doubt they will cover any haul out or installation costs which obviously sucks big time!
So I am interested in finding out if other people have had issues with the Airmar DST800 tri-ducer, specifically in regards to the flap failing.
Also what are peoples opinion regarding installation / haul out costs? Should I push Raymarine into covering these..
Information I have from Raymarine is that Airmar made adjustments to the design in 2010 as they had issues with flap failures, I suspect they may not have sorted the issue.
21 - 40 of 45 Posts
Classic30,
One of the approaches I am considering is using GPS SOG data as you do. Has not knowing indicated boat speed or current conditions impacted you any in what you do?
One of the approaches I am considering is using GPS SOG data as you do. Has not knowing indicated boat speed or current conditions impacted you any in what you do?
Unfortunately, the video on SA does not work for me. Do not have the necessary permission.
Be happy to send it to you directly if you're interested. Just PM me.
Btw, what I ended up doing is varnishing all the wooden surfaces that are exposed to the salt water that sprays while changing the sensor. Purely cosmetic as teak isn't really going to mind.
I never would have thought that there are boat owners out there who regularly remove a transducer while their boat is in the water. have the same DST800. It has been in salt water for over four years. The only time it has tasted oxygen is the last haul/bottom job two years ago. It has never failed to work. Call me crazy but it seems like each time you open a hole in the bottom of your boat there is a potential for something very bad to happen. I would think the only reason you should remove it while the boat is in the water is if it stops working. You can clean any gunk or replace the paddle wheel. I am in the insurance claims business and this sounds suspiciously like the beginning of a loss report.
"I thought I'd make a video of how high the gusher is when I remove my speed transducer and..." Water cooler stories for weeks.
The flapper is a gimmick. I would never even think to trust it.
"I thought I'd make a video of how high the gusher is when I remove my speed transducer and..." Water cooler stories for weeks.
The flapper is a gimmick. I would never even think to trust it.
The height of the geyser will depend on how far under water the fitting is. I pull mine to haul and launch (sling straps are bad for the wheel) and there's a gush, but I either clap my hand on it or fit the other (plug/transducer) quickly, but it's only about 1.4' below waterline. If it was a deeper hull, there'd be more pressure. Still just a moments work to sponge out the gush.
Previous boat did not have a flap, but was even shallower, so water just sort of flowed out.
Just make sure you fit SOMETHING back in the hole as quickly as possible, flap or no flap.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Previous boat did not have a flap, but was even shallower, so water just sort of flowed out.
Just make sure you fit SOMETHING back in the hole as quickly as possible, flap or no flap.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
WW, the sailing I do is on a large open "lake" (for want of a better description) with well-known (and relatively small) tidal runs. I guess I've not used boat-speed for so long now (a couple of years perhaps?) that I've got used to not having it. It would certainly be useful in some of our races, but then I'd be tracking the lifts/knocks by watching the speed indicator all the time, when I can get the same info quicker by watching the sails and the way the boat is tracking through the water. If, from the GPS track, I think there's a current pushing me sideways, a quick tack confirms it and tells me roughly how much...Classic30,
One of the approaches I am considering is using GPS SOG data as you do. Has not knowing indicated boat speed or current conditions impacted you any in what you do?
So to answer your question, IMHO indicated boat-speed is a "nice to have", especially if you have wind-speed instrumentation (on my boat I don't) - but GPS SOG is good enough for me. At the end of the day, whether they be anchorages or racing marks, I'm still sailing from Point A to Point B and those are fixed points on the surface of the earth, not arbitrary points on the water.
Im going sailing on Sunday weather permitting so will video the removal of the blanking plug to compare.
My issue isn't so much the quantum of water, more so it's the fact we have installed 3 of these and on all 3 the flap has fallen off shortly after relaunch. So either our installer is an idiot (I doubt that), or the product is defective.
Raymarine have not been very helpful to date. I emailed their warranty manager here in Australia about the latest failure on 12th of May, he indicated they needed to seek advise from the UK. I followed up on the 12th of June and have not had any response.
My issue isn't so much the quantum of water, more so it's the fact we have installed 3 of these and on all 3 the flap has fallen off shortly after relaunch. So either our installer is an idiot (I doubt that), or the product is defective.
Raymarine have not been very helpful to date. I emailed their warranty manager here in Australia about the latest failure on 12th of May, he indicated they needed to seek advise from the UK. I followed up on the 12th of June and have not had any response.
My understanding is that Airmar is responsible for warranties on their equipment. My replacement thru-hull came from them (of course it performed no differently), so I would suspect that yours would too. My installer told me that the only way to prevent valve detachments is to lubricate the transducer and plug o-ring thoroughly and frequently. Something about dry o-rings gripping the flapper and pulling it loose from its hinge pin.
Hope you have a great sail on Sunday.
Hope you have a great sail on Sunday.
Wopalx, get a chance to pull the plug?Im going sailing on Sunday weather permitting so will video the removal of the blanking plug to compare.
How bout you, WG, get a chance to pull the ducer?Just saw the video, thanks.
I'll pull my DST800 sender this weekend and check out the flow for comparison.
I'll pop my cork tomorrow. If you don't hear back, you'll know it did not go well
No the weather was ****. Will do it this weekend, as I really need to put the screws on Raymarine for a fix.Wopalx, get a chance to pull the plug?
I was out for a sail yesterday so took a quick video of the water flow when changing the balancing plug for the transducer.
You can see clearly (through the water flow) that there is no flap or anything slowing the flow of water.
http://http://s789.photobucket.com/user/wopalx/library/Transducer
You can see clearly (through the water flow) that there is no flap or anything slowing the flow of water.
http://http://s789.photobucket.com/user/wopalx/library/Transducer
I expect you were using one hand for the video. Ignoring that you are taking too long.I was out for a sail yesterday so took a quick video of the water flow when changing the balancing plug for the transducer.
Have the plug going in ready to go in one hand with the arrow aligned. Use the other hand to unscrew the plug in place. With one plug in each hand you should be able to switch in two or three seconds. Fast lets in much less water than enters in 15 seconds.
Yes normally it takes me significantly less time. I was however wanting to show the water flow.I expect you were using one hand for the video. Ignoring that you are taking too long.
Have the plug going in ready to go in one hand with the arrow aligned. Use the other hand to unscrew the plug in place. With one plug in each hand you should be able to switch in two or three seconds. Fast lets in much less water than enters in 15 seconds.
From the amount of water coming in in that video, it does seem to me that you've lost the flapper.
For completeness, here's a link to the installation manual for this beastie - I assume you guys are following it to the letter? http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/pdfs/Raymarine/st800-p120_install.pdf
Of particular importance here:
I found out the hard way with my DST transducer that if the plug wasn't properly lubricated when you pushed it in the first time, due to the extremely close tolerances, pulling it out pulled the flapper out also.. but after doing that once and learning from my mistakes, I've been smearing Vaseline on the plug every couple of times I use it, in accordance with the instructions. I really haven't had a problem since.
For completeness, here's a link to the installation manual for this beastie - I assume you guys are following it to the letter? http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/pdfs/Raymarine/st800-p120_install.pdf
Of particular importance here:
1. On the blanking plug, inspect the O-rings (replace if necessary) and lubricate them with the silicone lubricant supplied or petroleum jelly (Vaseline®)
I found out the hard way with my DST transducer that if the plug wasn't properly lubricated when you pushed it in the first time, due to the extremely close tolerances, pulling it out pulled the flapper out also.. but after doing that once and learning from my mistakes, I've been smearing Vaseline on the plug every couple of times I use it, in accordance with the instructions. I really haven't had a problem since.
It was installed according to the instructions by a Raymarine agent so I can only assume they did it correctly.
There is heaps of lubricant on the transducer and the blanking plug so I doubt it's a lack of lubricant causing the issue.
I know from Raymarine that Airmar had some issues and altered the design a couple of years ago, below is what Raymarine sent me prior to us having the new one installed;
"Regarding the DST800 snap ring, the the ring design was revised as a result of NCR712, reducing the ring gap from 0.56 to 0.112112 in on Airmar ECO 09E0197 with an effectivity date of 02/18/2010. Airmar has implemented the change on all affected products and has purged all of the "old" snap ring stock. If you can provide the serial number(s) or date code of the affected units I will confirm the mfg date and whether these units were assembled with the old or new snap ring version.
As you may recall, the risk of the original valve becoming dislodged requires the ring to be positioned with the gap positioned directly over the valve hinge. Assembly instructions include the orientation of the snap ring with ring gap 180 deg from the valve hinge. An incorrectly positioned ring could occur during assembly, or during post-delivery handling. The ring can be rotated by hand from the "as assembled" orientation (180 deg from the valve hinge) during installation or subsequent handling. Please note, that with the snap ring gap located over the valve hinge (incorrect placement or subsequent manual rotation), the valve body remains securely retained within the housing, but includes a higher risk of failure due to the size of the snap ring gap and valve hinge. "
There is heaps of lubricant on the transducer and the blanking plug so I doubt it's a lack of lubricant causing the issue.
I know from Raymarine that Airmar had some issues and altered the design a couple of years ago, below is what Raymarine sent me prior to us having the new one installed;
"Regarding the DST800 snap ring, the the ring design was revised as a result of NCR712, reducing the ring gap from 0.56 to 0.112112 in on Airmar ECO 09E0197 with an effectivity date of 02/18/2010. Airmar has implemented the change on all affected products and has purged all of the "old" snap ring stock. If you can provide the serial number(s) or date code of the affected units I will confirm the mfg date and whether these units were assembled with the old or new snap ring version.
As you may recall, the risk of the original valve becoming dislodged requires the ring to be positioned with the gap positioned directly over the valve hinge. Assembly instructions include the orientation of the snap ring with ring gap 180 deg from the valve hinge. An incorrectly positioned ring could occur during assembly, or during post-delivery handling. The ring can be rotated by hand from the "as assembled" orientation (180 deg from the valve hinge) during installation or subsequent handling. Please note, that with the snap ring gap located over the valve hinge (incorrect placement or subsequent manual rotation), the valve body remains securely retained within the housing, but includes a higher risk of failure due to the size of the snap ring gap and valve hinge. "
I pulled my DST800 transducer today. Far less water ingress than seen in your video. I was surprised to see how well the flapper worked. Minor geyser 2-3 inches high.
21 - 40 of 45 Posts
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