[flyingwelshman]

This happened on the weekend. We weren't racing or anything, just a fun sail. I'm just curious about what kind of courtesy one should expect.

So I'm beating about as close as I can get (I'm the green boat). On the tack I'm on I should just be able to leave the red buoy to starboard. I can't leave it to port as this would put me on the shoal.

The approaching vessel rounds the marker and sails towards me on a very broad reach - practically a run. She is a Nonsuch and has her sail eased as far out as it will go.

If the Nonsuch veers a few degrees to her starboard I can maintain my heading and get past the marker. We're only talking a few degrees and the Nonsuch has plenty of searoom on her starboard side. If the Nonsuch holds her course, I will be forced to bear off and tack to get around the marker.

Even though the Nonsuch was the stand-on vessel - due to it being on a starboard tack - should her skipper have given way to allow me to pass the buoy without tacking? This would not cause him any inconvenience and would definitely assist me.

Was I expecting too much for the other skipper to have that much situational awareness?

As it turned out the Nonsuch stood on and we waved as we passed; we performed a couple of extra tacks - no harm: no foul.

No animosity - just a question.

What do you think?

 

[JohnRPollard]

Was I expecting too much for the other skipper to have that much situational awareness?

Probably.

They likely didn't analyze beyond establishing that they were stand-on and you were give-way. Some folks even feel the best thing to do is to hold course so that the give-way can make a plan based on a reasonable expectation of where the stand-on will be.

They were technically fine but, sure, it would have been nice if they could have given you a little space since you were pressing hard to make a windward mark.

 

[zz4gta]

Don't expect anything. Ever. It would be nice if the other boat headed up to let you in, but I wouldn't expect it. Honestly, I don't try to anticipate (assume) what another boat is going to do. This can get you into trouble.

edit: john beat me to it.

 

[n0w0rries]

I would have beat to quarters, ran out the starboard battery, and presented my broadside!

On a serious note, it's unfortunate that common sense and common courtesy are not so common.

 

[ericread]

Probably.

Some folks even feel the best thing to do is to hold course so that the give-way can make a plan based on a reasonable expectation of where the stand-on will be.

QUOTE]

I agree. In my US Sailing classes it has been drummed into me to hold course as the stand-on vessel. Once I start changing tack, the give-way vessel no longer knows my intentions. By the same token, as the stand-on vessel I really don't know your intentions. Are you waiting for me to pass so that you can tack to port? Or are you heading straight to get around the red buoy? Add a few more boats in the area and it starts to get a bit messy...

 

[flyingwelshman]

I would have beat to quarters, ran out the starboard battery, and presented my broadside!

On a serious note, it's unfortunate that common sense and common courtesy are not so common.

I don't think that the Nonsuch skipper was being discourteous. I think he wasn't aware of how his course impacted mine.

He was absolutely quite correct in maintaining his heading as he was clearly the stand-on vessel.

I just wonder, as a relatively new sailor, would someone expect me, under the same circumstances, to have enough awareness to adjust my course in order to allow a disadvantaged boat a break?

BTW - if I had run out the starboard battery and let fly with a muzzle-load of grape, the people on Present Island would be a bit put out. (look at the diagram)

 

[imagine2frolic]

Discourteous is being pleasant. It might really hurt to give a few degress, and all it takes is some observation. If the Nonsuch was smart enough to know the rules. He should've been courteous enough not to pinch you. That's what a gentleman, or lady would do. Definately the Nonsuch was neither..........i2f

 

[Cruisingdad]

You are assuming he even knew he was the stand-on or that he had any clue you were having to deal with his lack of attention.

I am very sensitive about how I impact other boats. I make sure that if I am passing or being passed, I give a lot of leeway. I find that many sailors do not know the rules of the road and simply are oblivious to what is around them. I find this charachter trait just short of completely prevalent in motor boaters, especially craft 45 feet and under.

My best guess is that he meant no harm and simply was doing his best to keep going straight. I probably would not have said anything either - him being a sailboat. But a motor boat on the other hand... I have no problem calling a spade a spade and doing so on CH 16 while mentioning the name of his boat. It never does any good, though. Most never learned how to turn on their VHF, if they even knew they had one.

- CD

 

[US27inKS]

You could have tacked in front of him (assuming you had room) and made him the give way vessel. Then after he passed you could have tacked back over to port and had an easier angle past the mark.

 

[flyingwelshman]

You could have tacked in front of him (assuming you had room) and made him the give way vessel. Then after he passed you could have tacked back over to port and had an easier angle past the mark.

I considered that but I didn't want to cut him off, and I still thought I might make it past the mark.
As Maxwell Smart said, "Missed it by that much!"

 

[Cruisingdad]

By the way, did he see you? The Nonsuch has a huge sail forward (obviously) which may have blocked his view forward. I have always thougth that was one of the huge negatives of a Nonsuch when running.

Just a thought.

- CD

 

[flyingwelshman]

By the way, did he see you? The Nonsuch has a huge sail forward (obviously) which may have blocked his view forward. I have always thougth that was one of the huge negatives of a Nonsuch when running.

Just a thought.

- CD

Its entirely possible that he didn't see me. 500 square feet of dacron tends to obstruct the view.

 

[imagine2frolic]

If you know you have a blind spot like the Nonsuch. You make sure you can see under, or around it! I would think you being limited in movement, because of the shoal, and marker was enough to make you the stand on vessel. Just like the freighter coming into harbors with channels to follow.......i2f

 

[Cruisingdad]

If you know you have a blind spoti2f

Blind SPOT? How about Blind Mile!!!!!

Hey Welchman, just thank the Good Lord that you were not in a Catamaran, trying to go upwind - or your options really would have been limited!! (HEHE... snicker... just for you I2F)

- CD

 

[imagine2frolic]

CD,

If I find you somewhere in S. Florida this winter. I am going to have to teach you some upwind sailing....I known where there's an abandonded Santana 22!.....i2f

 

[Cruisingdad]

CD,

If I find you somewhere in S. Florida this winter. I am going to have to teach you some upwind sailing....I known where there's an abandonded Santana 22!.....i2f

HEHE! You probably would, too! Truth is that when we live aboard, we really need a good reasons to sail to weather. I have little interest in things banging all around down there! I have no problems cranking up the engine. It is quieter then the kids and wife screaming at me about things getting broken down below!

Only a live aboard would understand, as I bet you do (smile).

Brian

 

[imagine2frolic]

HEHE! You probably would, too! Truth is that when we live aboard, we really need a good reasons to sail to weather. I have little interest in things banging all around down there! I have no problems cranking up the engine. It is quieter then the kids and wife screaming at me about things getting broken down below!

Only a live aboard would understand, as I bet you do (smile).

Brian

OKAY, OKAY, I agree to agree:laugher :laugher .......i2f

 

[KurtV]

If the Nonsuch veers a few degrees to her starboard I can maintain my heading and get past the marker. We're only talking a few degrees and the Nonsuch has plenty of searoom on her starboard side. If the Nonsuch holds her course, I will be forced to bear off and tack to get around the marker.

Even though the Nonsuch was the stand-on vessel - due to it being on a starboard tack - should her skipper have given way to allow me to pass the buoy without tacking? This would not cause him any inconvenience and would definitely assist me.
Not only should the stand-on vessel not have given way, she's forbidden from doing so by the rules. The stand-on vessel must maintain course and speed.

Was I expecting too much for the other skipper to have that much situational awareness?
What makes you think she didn't have situational awareness? She was following the rules.
As it turned out the Nonsuch stood on and we waved as we passed; we performed a couple of extra tacks - no harm: no foul.

What do you think?

If you want the stand-on vessel to act in some way that's not in accordance with the rules, you need to ask her to. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for you to ask given the situation you describe, but is is unreasonable to expect another vessel to not only read the situation for you but to also read your mind.

Pick up the radio and talk. If there's not time to do that, follow the rules. Kudos to you for that and for knowing the rule in the first place. Way too many don't.

 

[bobmcgov]

You could have tacked in front of him (assuming you had room) and made him the give way vessel. Then after he passed you could have tacked back over to port and had an easier angle past the mark.

This.

You don't have a right to your lay line, nor to maintain a course based on convenience. By beating in tight to a marker with shoaling to leeward, you were painting yourself into a potential corner -- potential realized when another vessel entered the picture. What if the Nonesuch altered course and headed up -- and then you realized you weren't going to lay the marker after all and had to tack? Now the two boats are on converging courses, the burden has suddenly shifted, and the chances are good both skippers will take evasive action simultaneously -- potentially worsening the situation.

Courtesy is a fine thing, and if the Nonesuch skipper had made a broad, obvious gesture on rounding the buoy -- heading WELL wide of it and waiting to bear off, indicating you may have the inside line -- everyone would have been happy. But he was under no obligation, legal or social, to do so: and maybe if he had gone wide, he would have had to jibe once passing you to recover his heading. HE has to change tacks to spare you the trouble? No.

I don't understand why throwing in a tack is such a hellfire nuisance anyhow. We're not sailing tea clippers, here. Don't ever take up inland lake sailing if you are allergic to tacking. We do it forty or fifty times a day. In my not-very-authoritative opinion, as soon as you saw the Nonesuch round the buoy, you should have tacked onto starboard, making you the new stand on vessel, causing courses to diverge at right angles (minimizing time in the collision zone), and giving yourself greater room (and therefore more options) for passing the shoal. Do it early so everyone understands their obligations. It's what I would have done, but then I'm a sissy about boats getting close to me.

 

[US27inKS]

but then I'm a sissy about boats getting close to me.

Racing will fix that. Last weekend I shook hands with the committee boat crew while crossing the finish line.

When I'm out on the lake and I see someone I want to talk to, I just pull right up next to them and have a chat, or I'll buzz their transom by a couple of feet. Sometimes it's my friend who teaches sailing. It makes the students nervous at first, but when they see that neither Kathy nor myself are the least bit concerned, they settle down.