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Discussion Starter #1
I've been wondering about keeping a boat anchored for several months, and not paying a marina. Is it possible? I guess it depends on the circumstances, and that's what the rest of this is about.

I've heard that certain places, such as populated places like California have time restrictions on anchoring. I understand that, but as far as I know most other places don't.

If you're not in an anchorage, you're supposed to have an anchor light. That can be done with a battery and solar panel, so that's no problem.

Then there's the weather. My assumption is that if the boat can be sailed in rough waters, that it can also be anchored in the same conditions with a proper anchor setup. Is there any chance that this could work in larger unprotected waters? It's amazing how small anchors are compared to the sizes of boats that they are used on. Making a bigger or better one would not be hard at all. Waves must get worse as the water gets shallower, but a long line isn't very expensive and a homemade mooring isn't hard to make.

Here in the Illinois river or Peoria Lake as they call part of it, there are some very wide areas that are far from the channel. I've seen a few pontoon boats beached in front of some people's houses, but nothing anchored out. Why don't people do it?

If I bought some $300 piece of junk boat, couldn't I keep it anchored, and if something happened, it really wouldn't be much of a loss.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
How long have you been here? Have you read anything on this forum?
Yes ... there is a strong attitude against anyone trying to do things a different way to cut costs. Everyone is expected to have safety equipment which is only considered necessary in 1st world countries where it can be afforded, and everyone is expected to have a proper marina or mooring and be insured, even though it is not required by law.

Someone may expect YOU to remove it when it washes up on their front lawn.
If it is properly secured that would never happen. What could happen is it would sink. If the mast was down and it sank in deep water, it would just join the many other pieces of junk on the sea floor. Nobody would ever know that anything happened. People spend more time being upset about about some harmless non oil polluting wreck than they did about Deepwater Horizon.
 

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Dirt Free
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This is the kind of thinking that give cruisers a bad name, suggest you take up another hobby.
 

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Why would you want to stay so long in one place? A boat is to GO with.
 

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So long as it is legal to anchor long term where you choose, yes you can do so. Should your boat sink you are legally required to have it floated and hauled out. As well as pay the fines for any damage done, and the environmental fines for any pollution or sewage that is released. Should it wash ashore you are responsible for removal and any damage that occurs, including any cost for environmental fines.
 

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If we ignore for the moment, whether it's legal, responsible, reasonable or desirable, let's just look at the practicality.

It's amazing how small anchors are compared to the sizes of boats that they are used on. Making a bigger or better one would not be hard at all. Waves must get worse as the water gets shallower, but a long line isn't very expensive and a homemade mooring isn't hard to make.
I can only assume that you don't know much about anchors or moorings. BTW, it's unclear which you are proposing - If it's really a mooring, how are you going to set it in place?

If it is properly secured that would never happen.
Really? I can only assume that you don't know much about anchors or moorings.

What could happen is it would sink. If the mast was down and it sank in deep water, it would just join the many other pieces of junk on the sea floor. Nobody would ever know that anything happened.
You can see the contradiction between water shallow enough to anchor and deep enough to sink without a trace, right?

Could you do it? Maybe.
Is it safe or practical? Under the scenario you describe, those two are probably mutually exclusive.
 

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Why would you want to stay so long in one place? A boat is to GO with.
Because he's a BUM. He's not looking to "go" anywhere, he's looking to anchor his POS $300 "home" somewhere, so that he can beat the cost of land-based rent and taxes.

As I often say, I am a huge advocate of saving abandoned sailboats that are still in useful condition, often to the point that a lot of people think I take things too far. Then, someone like this guy comes along and completely exceeds even my tolerance for buying junk boats and acting (or proposing) totally irresponsible behavior.

I love the line "that would never happen".
Steel, just because the boat is "out of sight", doesn't mean that it's not an environmental hazard down at the bottom of the river. It also doesn't mean that you are not legally responsible for cleaning up your trash.

People like this: CNN Hero are cleaning up after people like you.

You asked why people don't do this-
Because it's impractical, unsafe, and irresponsible. Does that answer your question?

Get a clue, mate or take up golf.
 

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I anchor a lot, almost always when I cruise and sometimes I anchor in settled weather on relatively unprotected waters. It can be done on one condition: To set sail immediately out of there at the first sign of stronger weather coming, no matter the hour of the day or the night.

It is not obviously what you are talking about. Even on protected waters there are not many places where a boat can be safely on anchor all year around, no matter the weather.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
boatpoker,
It would be funny if you were also participating in the Why is Sailing Dying Why are no New Young People Getting in to Sailing thread.

manatee,
Well I'm not alone, look at nearly every boat at the local marina.

or sewage that is released.
Even if I anchor my boat next to the big water outlet with the big sign that says "COMBINED SEWER OVERFLOW", and it sinks there? This is ridiculous.

The funny thing is, a while back on this forum there was a thread about an abandoned boat somewhere in the north east US. The anchor rode was chafing and the owner could not be found. People on this forum were telling him to do the right thing and take the boat out at night and sink it. If pollution from a sunken fiberglass boat is so bad, then why suggest doing it?

Geoff54,
Two things at once:
1)Why don't people anchor in the lake areas of the Illinois river where it is fairly protected.
2) Out of curiosity is it possible to do deep water moorings in unprotected waters?

As far as the lake goes, I guess it is possible with a proper anchor. As for deep water mooring, I'm curious as to what would happen.

How to get a mooring out there? Get a big barrel on deck and fill it with concrete little by little, with a big hook or chain at the top and some rebar to hold it togehter. Then push it over the side when it is finished. The deck may need to have wooden supports under the barrel. Could also get a big barrel with a hatch on the top and fill it with concrete as it floats in the water. Then float it out to the location and sink it. Stainless steel chains would go inside the concrete.

The attachment to the mooring on the boat can be reinforced.

Because he's a BUM. He's not looking to "go" anywhere, he's looking to anchor his POS $300 "home" somewhere, so that he can beat the cost of land-based rent and taxes.
fascist! Why did you send me a friend request after all this? Were you trying to use the ignore feature instead?

PCP,
Of course no anchoring in the ice. Out of curiosity, if you had a strong mooring and a strong 200 meter long line to it out in water that is 30m deep, could you handle a storm? Or should I say: What would be required?

How about some technical numbers as to why thinks can't be done a certain way. "Impractical" doesn't tell me much. "The mooring would need to be able to hold half of the displacement of the boat" would.
 

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Sorry but most of you post makes no sense.
Try not to endanger anyone else if you attempt this.
Let us know how it works out for you.
 

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Yes steel, the friend request was accidental. I was replying from my phone.

I love how you call me a fascist, but didn't deny any of my statements.
You're a navigational hazard, to be avoided at all costs.
I love how you justify polluting, by claiming that you'll anchor near a sewage outflow.

"Hey, the municipal government is doing it, so it must be ok!"
 

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boatpoker,
It would be funny if you were also participating in the Why is Sailing Dying Why are no New Young People Getting in to Sailing thread.

manatee,
Well I'm not alone, look at nearly every boat at the local marina.


Even if I anchor my boat next to the big water outlet with the big sign that says "COMBINED SEWER OVERFLOW", and it sinks there? This is ridiculous.

The funny thing is, a while back on this forum there was a thread about an abandoned boat somewhere in the north east US. The anchor rode was chafing and the owner could not be found. People on this forum were telling him to do the right thing and take the boat out at night and sink it. If pollution from a sunken fiberglass boat is so bad, then why suggest doing it?

Geoff54,
Two things at once:
1)Why don't people anchor in the lake areas of the Illinois river where it is fairly protected.
2) Out of curiosity is it possible to do deep water moorings in unprotected waters?

As far as the lake goes, I guess it is possible with a proper anchor. As for deep water mooring, I'm curious as to what would happen.

How to get a mooring out there? Get a big barrel on deck and fill it with concrete little by little, with a big hook or chain at the top and some rebar to hold it togehter. Then push it over the side when it is finished. The deck may need to have wooden supports under the barrel. Could also get a big barrel with a hatch on the top and fill it with concrete as it floats in the water. Then float it out to the location and sink it. Stainless steel chains would go inside the concrete.

The attachment to the mooring on the boat can be reinforced.


fascist! Why did you send me a friend request after all this? Were you trying to use the ignore feature instead?

PCP,
Of course no anchoring in the ice. Out of curiosity, if you had a strong mooring and a strong 200 meter long line to it out in water that is 30m deep, could you handle a storm? Or should I say: What would be required?

How about some technical numbers as to why thinks can't be done a certain way. "Impractical" doesn't tell me much. "The mooring would need to be able to hold half of the displacement of the boat" would.
I'd respond if I could figure out what you are saying :confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for finding that. I had completely forgotten about it.

Anyway, lots of people today seem to have a problem separating the hypothetical from the real thing.

There seems to be an unusual amount of attack over this issue. Is there a hidden reason behind this, like marinas losing thousands of dollars?

The fascist comment refers to a political and social system that I am completely opposed to. If someone is a fascist, we will really never agree on anything. People who think like this often are very well versed in the law, and frequently end up using circular reasoning over common law and morality issues by judging the law by the law.

I saw that thread about my day really sucked. It's a shame he didn't act faster to save the boat. If he had put a hole in the side for a water pump, a large pump on another boat next to it would probably be enough to overcome the water leaking in through the hatch boards etc., and the boat could have been refloated as the tide came in.


Now out of curiosity, is it possible to anchor or moor a boat in unprotected waters? I know that question results in a lot of ifs, like how strong the mooring is, how long the line going to the sea floor is, how big the boat is, what kind of boat it is, how big of a storm could come, and how deep the water is.

So for instance, a small surfaced submarine with fully sealed ballast tanks that had a very strong mooring could be left out in any storm and never sink. That's about a seaworthy as you can get (as long as nobody is on it). Now of course a boat couldn't handle as much.

Say there was a 30' steel hulled and well sealed boat out in 100' of water depth. The mooring and 700' of chain can handle 5000 pounds of working load. The chain is directly attached to the hull and will not break. Would it survive a hurricane?

This is just a hypothetical question. I hope there won't be more name calling and personal attackers over it. It is just information. It doesn't hurt anyone. Of course, people who are pro gun control etc. often think otherwise about the sharing of information.

It's okay if nobody wants to answer. But are more personal attacks over it really necessary?
 

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This is just a hypothetical question...It's okay if nobody wants to answer.
steel - If you are asking for an engineering judgment then the parameters aren't well enough defined to provide an answer to your question.

Is the question truly hypothetical? Are you contemplating testing the scenario when you get a better defined answer? Or are you evaluating the potential for doing something similar as a means of shelter on the cheap?

In one of your posts you suggested using seven hundred feet of chain on a large deep mooring made of concrete with SS chain embedded for attachment. To hold a $300 5000 pound boat. Would you really spend close to $3000 for a chain to hold a $300 boat? And $12 a foot for the SS chain? And $50 for the concrete? And $200 or so for the shackles and swivels?

And you do know that a 55 gal drum of concrete weighs about 800 pounds…you gonna just roll it over the side? Gonna mix that concrete in a mixing pan on the foredeck and shovel it into the barrel? You gonna take down the lifelines roll it off or not have any lifelines?

And how would you get your potable water? And what would you use for heating? And for stove fuel? How would you handle your waste - holding tank/pump out or bucket over the side? Ready to pay that $1500 fine?

Gonna use solar/batteries for electricity? Gonna have refrigeration? The $300 boat gonna come with all that or are you gonna have to design and buy and install systems?

Would this $300 boat be mobile…have propulsion?

Gonna have a dink? Oar or engine powered? How do you get ashore when ice is on the lake but it's too thin to walk on and too thick to row through? Dinks with icebreaker bows are expensive.
 

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Steel,

To answer your question, it is possible to anchor pretty much anything pretty much anywhere. But the size and cost of the mooring may far exceed the value of the boat.

Assuming a typical 30' sailboat in the 15,000lbs range...
In a wind of 100mph (the minimum acceptable for hurricane anchorages)
Assuming concrete cubes

You would have a wind load of 7000lbs. In an unprotected anchorage you would need to double this to account for wave action (this is a guess, but seems reasonable). So we need 14,000lbs of holding power.

Concrete blocks have been tested, and a 2000lbs concrete cube has about 800lbs of holding power. So to meet our 14,000lbs holding power, we would need about 35,000lbs of concrete. Concrete runs about 145lbs/foot^2, so we need a 242cubic foot block, so a solid block that is 6.25'x6.25'x6.25 should work.


(1) numbers based on tests preformed (1995 and 2007) by BoatU.S. Foundation For Safety, MIT, Cruising World Magazine and Sarasota Sailing Squadron
 

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Thanks for finding that. I had completely forgotten about it.

Anyway, lots of people today seem to have a problem separating the hypothetical from the real thing.

There seems to be an unusual amount of attack over this issue. Is there a hidden reason behind this, like marinas losing thousands of dollars?

(snip)

The fascist comment (snip)

It's okay if nobody wants to answer. But are more personal attacks over it really necessary?
The reason for the strong feelings, is because people usually don't ask questions like this without a serious intent to attempt to carry it out.

You were able to judge from a single response, that I am a fascist? Seems like you were pretty quick to jump on the "personal attack" bandwagon. Responsible sailors and boat owners are tired of being penalized for actions of the few, irresponsible, "floating homeless" like "Wandering Star".

At any rate, it seems that Fryewe and Stumble was able to answer your question in the most factual manner as to why this is fiscally unsound plan, and extremely difficult from an engineering standpoint.

Don't worry, we'll be here to remind you of what a bad idea this is, 3 year from now when you ask again. :rolleyes:
 
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