I think you would be surprised at how weak many of the skegs are that hold rudders in place. Some of them are just for show. There is no general problem with spade rudders while cruising. Of course, the rudder must be constructed well and in good shape, but that is no different than any rudder configuration.

I guess you could carry a backup rudder, but that takes a lot of space, and you still need to get the boat in a position to swap it in. Better would be to have a way to steer the boat without a rudder if needed. However, loss of rudder is not a common failure. Funny, we have a friend who carries a backup rudder, and this is on a catamaran with two rudders!

IMO, I'd actively seek a boat with a spade rudder over a full-keel or skeg, but that is because the boats that spade rudders are typically attached to are my type of cruising boat, and the others are not.

Mark

 

I would not rule out a well constructed spade rudder. It would be nice, if the shaft tube extended above the water line, in the very unlikely event you broke it off. Stuff does happen to rudders, but just as likely to steering linkage, so rudder type isn't always the issue. Our autopilot steers independent of the helm linkage.

This is also a great vid on steering your boat, with a drogue.

 

This is also a great vid on steering your boat, with a drogue.

Thanks, now I have one more thing to play with and learn about when I get back on the water. I'm a big believer in practice and preparedness.

 

My spade rudder is 19 years old and has no damage etc. It is pretty easy to keep it this way by not running it into things

 

Well, the spade rudder on our 25 foot Hunter did break off. BUT that was kinda my fault for grounding her too many times. I haven't ruled out spade rudders. I would want the shaft solid, and as mentioned before the tube to extend about the water line. Barring a solid shaft and it was an older boat and we had an extended trip coming up and she was on the hard I would reinforce the shaft by adding an internal sleeve that extended well into the rudder.

 

My Spade is 35 years young and never had an issue. It's been to Bermuda, Maine, Florida etc. Don't hit stuff is a good philosophy. I have replaced the quadrants and the cables etc over the years. The Rudder itself has held up.

 

I've hit a whale, a tree, a 5 mile long fishing net and a container, just to mention just a few things that are out there, and I wouldn't be comfortable on a boat with a spade rudder offshore. I prefer a full skeg or keel hung.

 

Did you hit those with your rudder or your keel? We've hit a couple of things like a log and a manatee, and they just hit the keel and either rolled away from the boat or rolled deeper past the rudder. Keels do a good job of protecting rudders, although I guess that is highly dependent on the particular design and implementation.

Mark

 

The spade rudder on my boat is 34 years old. I maintain it, and have never had a problem with it. Maintaining it consists of draining (siphoning, actually) the water that collects in the rudder post, a stainless steel tube, every fall after haul out.

We will start on the great lakes and hopefully one day explore Eastern Canada and the Caribbean.

What you plan to do would be considered by many to be coastal cruising.

Here is a video that was made by the GM of my old marina on how HE could steer his boat with a Galerider drogue;

I understand that he actually drove his boat through Newport Harbor with the drogue as his only steering control.

 

For offshore use (as described by op), I certainly prefer keel-hung, transom hung, or skeg hung. Loss of steering is the number one cause of ship abandonment at sea. With these type of designs you have a better chance of keeping your rudder, IMHO (I also prefer internal ballast over bolted keels for similar reasons, but I am conservative in this regard). I know of many sailors who are fine with spade rudders for passagemaking as well - you really have to decide your own comfort level.

 

I always wonder about the "offshore" thing as to why people think that is MORE dangerous than close to shore/coast. To me "offshore" is safe water!!!!!! Near shore has shoals/boats/rocks/floating crap/short steep waves/changing wind directions and all kinds of dangers.

Everyone has to decide for themselves if the extra 0.01% chance of boat loss due to the rudder being a spade rudder is worth the 100% time loss of better handling and control it provides.

 

To me "offshore" is safe water!

I think with true "blue water" offshore, actually crossing oceans and even attempting circumnavigation

the danger factor isn't so much in from being far from land

but in travelling over a greater portion of our planet, that you would be encountering a much greater variety of hazards, and a higher percentage them of them unexpected and novel to you.

As opposed to the more familiar well traveled coastlines where so many other sailors can give you preventative tips.

I've hit a whale, a tree, a 5 mile long fishing net and a container, just to mention just a few things that are out there, and I wouldn't be comfortable on a boat with a spade rudder offshore. I prefer a full skeg or keel hung.

Besides the above, coral reefs are apparently another good reason for a more protective design.

 

Totally agree with you - the worst conditions I have ever experienced were near shore. However, I would much prefer to lose a rudder near shore where I can contact coast guard if need be, instead of 1000 miles offshore. As for the "better handling and control" of a spade rudder - offshore is not the same as racing with constant tacks and jibes - you are typically on the same tack and wind direction for weeks at a time - keel hung or skeg hung rudders provide better tracking in this situation, whereas a spade rudder can become more "squirrelly" with it's quicker response - makes it harder on autopilots and crew as it needs more attention.

 

makes it harder on autopilots and crew as it needs more attention.

I would say this could be true for a windvane (I don't know), but not for an electronic autopilot. A spade rudder does not load up like an unbalanced rudder, and a boat quicker to react to steering is much safer in heavy following seas.

Autopilots will always work best (and with least electrical consumption and forces on the system) with the lightest and most responsive steering.

I would like to see data that support the number one cause of abandoning ships at sea are steering issues, as well as how much of those are because of spade rudders themselves. I could believe the steering issue part in general, but that includes so many other things besides the design of the rudder blade - most of which are shared with skeg, keel, and free rudder designs.

Mark

 

"A spade rudder does not load up like an unbalanced rudder, and a boat quicker to react to steering is much safer in heavy following seas."

Running in big following seas is probably the worst situation in which I would want a spade rudder. I ran in a strong gale (F9) for 12 hours last year in 12-15' breaking seas with a fast period in a modified full-keel 30' boat and can attest to the virtues of the design in such a situation. When I finally got to a point where I could make safe harbor the winds had died down to the mid 20's, but the seas were still large and fast, although no longer cresting. I had to time the waves to make the entrance, and the long keel kept me on track into the harbor. The next morning I saw this spade-ruddered boat who had tried the same entrance that night and not been able to do it.

 

"A spade rudder does not load up like an unbalanced rudder, and a boat quicker to react to steering is much safer in heavy following seas."

Running in big following seas is probably the worst situation in which I would want a spade rudder. I ran in a strong gale (F9) for 12 hours last year in 12-15' breaking seas with a fast period in a modified full-keel 30' boat and can attest to the virtues of the design in such a situation.

Have you done so with a good spade rudder design? Again, a lighter helm and quicker response is better for an autopilot, and performs better under autopilot. By extension, it is the same for hand steering. Broaching is a problem for boats that don't respond fast enough running in heavy seas - either because the rudder can't turn the boat well, or because it is so loaded up it overcomes the effort to turn it. Both of those situations are least with a balanced spade rudder (leaving out the rest of the boat design, of course).

Mark

 

I am becoming convinced the OP is going to analyze this boat selection to death, finally buy something, and after living with a short time, learn that all the things he agonized about are not really that important. And there are lots of things he never considered that will be on his list for the next boat.

 

Heck .......... backspaced and deleted it all because decided wasn't important to “win”

 

I am sure personal preference plays a factor. I am partial to balanced or semi balanced rudder. Takes less steering input/strength/mechanical advantage to steer, which results in not only easier handling but probably less strain on the steering system as well.

 

I do remember reading Bob Perry writing about this at one point - he said that with following seas, spade rudders have "bending forces" exerted on them, whereas skeg rudders have "twisting forces" exerted on them - he then went on to say that "bending forces" were much stronger forces. I'll see if I can find the quote.....

 

Mark, I don't want to argue with you, just relaying my experiences that I have firsthand knowledge of. Both boats had gone through during the same night - I never said the spade rudder caused other boat to crash, please re-read what I wrote. For all I know he was a bad skipper. Editing was for misspellings and to add the photo. Please chill and be respectful - I'm just sharing what I learned from an actual experience.

 

Both boats had gone through during the same night - I never said the spade rudder caused other boat to crash, please re-read what I wrote.

I did read what you wrote, which is why I responded. You stated that you got through the entrance because of your keel, but that the spade rudder boat couldn't make it and came to grief. Why would you make that distinction if you didn't mean to imply it? Why would it even be in a post about spade rudders?

No sails, no running rigging, no winches, no cleats, no hatches, no deck hardware, and broken into small pieces - that boat got pretty stripped and broken up in just the supposed couple of hours since it came to grief...

Mark

 

I'm new to big boat sailing and looking for a bluewater, family cruiser. We will start on the great lakes and hopefully one day explore Eastern Canada and the Caribbean.

A skeg mounted rudder seems like a smart way to go as it will be more durable, less prone to tangling or serious failure. However avoiding spade rudders eliminates a lot of boats that would otherwise work for us. I'm wondering what peoples experiences and opinions are about spade rudders. Do they get damaged that often? What about just carrying a backup emergency rudder?

Thanks.

Spade vs skeg rudders is one of those subjects, like best anchors and full keel vs fin keel, that is always divisive. They both have their place, and they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Boats are all about compromises.

What you are talking about doing is not really "bluewater cruising", you are talking about coastal cruising. That means you will likely be doing a lot more tight maneuvering and backing up in marinas and anchorages than the typical bluewater cruiser might. Don't discount the benefits of a spade rudder and the extra maneuverability they offer. There is a reason they are so popular, and so common on modern designs. I am sitting in an anchorage right now and looking around I would guess maybe 80% of the boats I can see have spade rudders and fin keels.

I don't know what the statistics are regarding rudder failures, but I would guess they are fairly rare. Certainly I have heard of rudders breaking off due to corroded rudder posts or compromised structure, but skeg or keel hung rudders arent immune to failures either. If you are that concerned you can always devise an emergency steering device, but odds are you will never need it.

Don't let that one design feature distract you. There are many thousands of boats with spade rudders cruising waters all over the world.

Find the boat that suits your needs right now, not the one you think you may want years down the road. I guarantee you once you get out there your priorities will change and evolve.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

 

Mark, I see you desperately want someone to argue with. I do hope your life gets happier than it obviously is now. Peace

 

The easiest decision I have made yet in all this analysis (like Elijah, also seeking first boat) is that my 'spare rudder' will be a windvane autopilot.

 

Not all fill that need, so research carefully for one that does.

Mark

 

There is a difference between argument and debate. The OP asked for opinions and experiences, and deserves reasoned ones. You have resorted to ad hominem, not debate.

Mark

 

Like Shock said you can find “truths” on which ever side you have an opinion on. It’s an age old debate.

having sailed both,it’s the captain who controls the boat. No one should be “ careening wildly while surfing waves”.That story represents an out of control captain no an out of control boat

 

Like Shock said you can find "truths" on which ever side you have an opinion on. It's an age old debate.

having sailed both,it's the captain who controls the boat. No one should be " careening wildly while surfing waves".That story represents an out of control captain no an out of control boat

Hmm, I'm not so sure that the captain or the boat was technically 'out of control'.

The point he was making was that under the right conditions, the directional stability of a full keel with attached rudder can be quite an advantage. My point in posting the anecdote was simply that it coincided with Lazerbrains mentioning sailing downwind with a strong following sea.

I've also read that for cruising the extra directional stability of the full keel setup can put a bit less strain, and energy usage on the autohelm.

For the record, I'm probably not going for a full keel at this point, as most novice accidents (they say) are statistically in negotiating marinas. For now I'll probably go with a long-ish keel, and full skeg hung rudder, sort of a happy medium it seems. When I start out on the North Sea and doing distance cruising in earnest (most likely a good year or two away), I'll seriously consider switching over.

 

I was waiting to see if someone was going to win this debate but i don't think so. well the wind is up so I guess I will take my transom hung rudder out for a sail and see if it stays on the boat. Oh thats right I have two rudders so no big deal if I lose one.

 

Oh thats right I have two rudders so no big deal if I lose one.

You have dual transom hung rudders? Or do you mean you have a spare rudder around?

One benefit of a catamaran is always having a spare rudder in place ready for use.

That's only half tongue in cheek. We were on a downwind passage once with 35-40kt winds and 10-12' seas surfing right along at 8-10kts all day and night under autopilot. The autopilot directly drives one rudder, and the rudders are not connected by a solid bar. It wasn't until the end of the passage as we entered a bay and I turned off the AP that I found out the steering system was completely disconnected and we had no steering. The cable had jumped the quadrant.

The boat was steered on only one rudder the whole time under autopilot, and we didn't even notice because the boat handling didn't change. I guess the other rudder just streamed along because it would have been noticeable if it stalled.

Mark

 

It is 2020! Isn't it about time sailors at least started thinking like it is 2000 instead of the 1970s? Maybe if people stopped reading “how to” and “what kind of boat” boats written in the 70s & 80s they could experience more “modern” ideas and less 70s fear ones.

 

It is 2020! Isn't it about time sailors at least started thinking like it is 2000 instead of the 1970s? Maybe if people stopped reading "how to" and "what kind of boat" boats written in the 70s & 80s they could experience more "modern" ideas and less 70s fear ones.

You've hit upon something we were just discussing the past couple of days. It seems like a lot of new cruisers are still reading those 70's and 80's era books and slavishly following examples and information that is way out of date (if it ever was good advice). For sure, some of it is basic stuff always true, but much is now hogwash. But it seems there isn't much new stuff written, and Youtube has taken over. One might think that would fill the void, but from all appearances, most of youtube are people who just got into cruising and are spouting facts and dogma from the start. Probably in the past, one must have had to prove themselves to get a book published, but that certainly isn't true for spewing videos on the internet.

There are people in brand new catamarans reading these ancient books and soaking labels off cans and putting them in their bilges, searching for pots of bitumen, putting baggywrinkle on their rigging, worm parcel and serving lines, and all sorts of crazy old days stuff.

Then there are the old die-hard boat design bits of wisdom like discussed here. You can recognize them because they all start with "I'd NEVER have...".

This is getting dangerously close to circling around to a Smackdaddy blue water boat debate!

Mark

 

I have never read any of those old “how to sail/cruise/what boat to buy” books. I am still trying to unlearn so much of the expert wisdom I learned on internet forums. I came to the forums with no sailing experience at all. I have now been on this and the other forum long enough to see newbies show up with “the questions” and progress to expert status.

This thread is a perfect example of the old school book fear

 

I have never read any of those old "how to sail/cruise/what boat to buy" books. I am still trying to unlearn so much of the expert wisdom I learned on internet forums. I came to the forums with no sailing experience at all. I have now been on this and the other forum long enough to see newbies show up with "the questions" and progress to expert status.

This thread is a perfect example of the old school book fear

Well first off I haven't read any books about sailing, everything I've learned has been from chatting with people, and reading blogs of experienced circumnavigators.

And I've actually learned a lot on the forums from helpful people.
I learned that I don't necessarily need a full keel boat, not right now.
I learned that its better to buy a well maintained boat that someone has put investments into than to buy a junker and fix it up.
I learned that marinas are a major challenge for novice sailors, and a good handling smaller boat may be better to learn on.
And I got steered away from the Moody's and toward the Contests, and I'm pretty confident that I'll find a good first boat that will be a good fit for me.
In the meantime I'm sailing rental boats on the inland waters, and enjoying it.
So my dream is going just fine, thank you very much!

 

Dreamed my way from never sailing to full time cruiser. How is your dream working out?

You want to know how to budget wreck your dream? Waste money and time
buying, maintaining, and selling “starter” boats.