[georgefmys]

Two cents from the other side

Read this whole thread just now. You are 100% in the right-but not in the drivers seat.The yard guy quoted is not the problem solver-the yard owner is.Unless 'buff out' guy is yard owner,consider a polite,diplomatic and flexible approach with the guy who signs the checks.Suggest meeting him/her at the yard.If this person looks at damage while standing next to you,well...what else needs to be said? Before pics are ok..but assumption is they have not denied that their crew caused damage.Did you bring to their attention right away?When you talk ,not write,to the boss --let him know you are his ally in fixing what is after all just a dumb mistake (WE ALL MAKE THEM) Then show you mean it by letting him outline a plan that allows yard to meet your reasonable requirements without too much pain for them.You were not planning a new paint job-but they cannot give you a five year old one.Offer more than a token amount in compensation payable on completion-if it makes you feel better look at it like great deal on new paint job.DO NOT rub their nose in it you want someone there hopefully the boss in your corner because most people want to help if you ask the right way.

 

[jason3317]

Read this whole thread just now. You are 100% in the right-but not in the drivers seat.The yard guy quoted is not the problem solver-the yard owner is.Unless 'buff out' guy is yard owner,consider a polite,diplomatic and flexible approach with the guy who signs the checks.Suggest meeting him/her at the yard.If this person looks at damage while standing next to you,well...what else needs to be said? Before pics are ok..but assumption is they have not denied that their crew caused damage.Did you bring to their attention right away?When you talk ,not write,to the boss --let him know you are his ally in fixing what is after all just a dumb mistake (WE ALL MAKE THEM) Then show you mean it by letting him outline a plan that allows yard to meet your reasonable requirements without too much pain for them.You were not planning a new paint job-but they cannot give you a five year old one.Offer more than a token amount in compensation payable on completion-if it makes you feel better look at it like great deal on new paint job.DO NOT rub their nose in it you want someone there hopefully the boss in your corner because most people want to help if you ask the right way.

Thanks for your reply, George. I did read it twice...

Let's be very clear. I am not rubbing noses, I am trying to get the yard that inexcusably damaged my vessel to acknowlege and remedy the problem. I've clearly asked them to outline their plan, but I've specified my expectations as well.

The ONLY reason I was not planning a paint job was because I had a *first class* Awlgrip job done 2 years ago. Now, through no fault of my own, I am the market for another multi-thousand dollar Awlgrip job

The person I spoke with who suggested that buffing would remediate the problem is the owner of the yard. We were standing 2 feet from the boat. It was after this conversation that I decided a more formal approach outlining my expectations is/was necessary. It is still my desire to resolve privately and in a friendly manner because I believe an honest mistake was made.

I don't agree with your point on compensation.

 

[sailingfool]

...
SF - under what circumstances did you have to file this claim, what caused the damage?

I've heard stories where lightning strikes have completely renders a boat's electronic fried....they were replaced with current equipment with only the deductible out of pocket.
...

Jason,
The circumstance was that a yard damaged the finish on my boat, however the yard denied they were responsible...their guilt was not as crystal clear as your circumstance, but they came around after I hired a lawyer and we got a court date.

My take from discussions with my insurance company (BoatUS/CNA) was the a paint job would always be depreciated, I would assume electronics would be an example of something that would not be depreciated...although the net of my experience with getting compensation for my hull damage is to never assume anything relative to how marine insurance works...or doesn't work.

 

[hellosailor]

Depreciation terms are only one of many reasons why you can never compare two insurance quotes without a thorough reading of the actual policy. And, checking each renewal quote to make sure they don't try to take it away from you as a silent rate increase.

 

[nk235]

Oh man reading this thread confirms one of my biggest fears....incompetent people and then the frustration of having to deal with a problem that is really black and white but makes you loose your mind trying to get justice.

Since I searched for ever to find a "gem" when looking for my boat and I also spend just as much time taking care of her as I do sailing her - also it is not like a new model of a car which can easily be replaced, as much of the work is custom and involved years of changes and modifications to really make it one of a kind.

All of that can go down the drain from having Harry and Marve, twiddle dee and twiddle dumb lift operators doing something like this, or worse drop your boat, or something else. THAN rather than apologize and go above and beyond to fix it, you have to argue with the yard for anything to be done!

And forget insurance - I mean after paying thousands of dollars to proactively insure your most prized possesion by shelling out money every year for the chance that something may happen -then when something does happen, why should the insurance company do their job and pay? No they will just offer a fraction of the cost (because it is depreciated) and after your deductable and time it took to file the claim, plus time spent on the phone with the adjuster/agent, yard, etc. it is worthless and you still owe are left with the hassle.

I honestly feel for ya as I would loose it in a heartbeat if this ever happened to me. I just can't stand incompetent people but they just seem to be more abundant day by day....I honestly wish you the best of luck

 

[TSOJOURNER]

Last year when I purchased my boat in Anacortes it was being stored at the Skyline Marina I am still disputing with the yard there about a dent that was a result of some improper strap locations. At first all I got was our employees are professionals and they know where the straps go. Then when I brought up to them hey my appointment was for eleven am and I showed up at 930 ish to get things prepared to put my new baby on a trailer and I was amazed to find my boat just hanging in the travel lift with the straps not in the locations of what I had in my binder that came with the boat. Whenever the accounts receivable lady calls I ask her to speak with the manager and always get told he will call me back. When I have tried to call the Marina to be proactive I never get to talk to anyone that can make decisions. I feel your pain in dealing with a travel lift situation that was not totally up to par. Maybe it was sending them a quote for the estimated repairs in my gel coat that got them to quit calling not to sure......

 

[jason3317]

Follow up - the letter got the yard's attention

I didn't get a call from the yard. I had to call them. It seems my letter identifying my concern about the hull damage finally got someone's attention.

I went up to check on the boat yesterday after the snow storm. Imagine my surprise when I noticed the yard had buffed the Awlgrip. This REALLY pissed me off, why you ask? I didn't authorize the work. What I did want was a phone call or other response to my communication - but who has the time to pick up the phone these days...quick, get out there and buff out the scratches before the insurance adjuster gets there.

I won't go into the details of the phone call I made today. Suffice to say, the president of the company is being pissy. He is upset about my formal letter to get his attention. I asked him about the buffing and if it was finished (he said it was). So, I am posting a new picture showing the results. They are less than spectacular and not acceptable.

Bottom line, the yard told me to file with BoatUS and have someone else paint it. It sounds like they aren't willing to put anymore resources into this problem.

And what bothers me the most, is that they have yet to apologize for the damage. Just excuse after excuse.

Not sure where I am going from here.....

Let me know what you all think of the 'after pic' (second photo)

 

[US27inKS]

I thought Awlgrip was similar to Perfection in that it doesn't take kindly to being buffed. You get a short term shine, but as soon as the wax wears off a bit, it looks like hell.

Maine Sail knows all about this stuff, but this is what I've heard.

 

[jason3317]

I thought Awlgrip was similar to Perfection in that it doesn't take kindly to being buffed. You get a short term shine, but as soon as the wax wears off a bit, it looks like hell.

Maine Sail knows all about this stuff, but this is what I've heard.

Yes, I've been told the same. I've also been told that it *is* possible with the right materials. a very professional touch and a bit of luck. The person that told me this is a person I trust in the marine business and does a fair bit of Awlgrip. I worry about losing the shine...but I also don't know a way to prove otherwise than to wait and see.

But, as the pics show, even after buffing, there is still very obvious damage.

MaineSail....you're on the clock. Whatcha think?

 

[scottyt]

i have not posted in this thread till now but i have read the whole thing. first that came out a lot better than i ever thought it would.

my options if me
get a chunk of cash money from the marina, live with it now until it starts going to crap, use cash to repaint.

second go to your insurance to get it repainted now but inform them its the yards fault. they will paint it and go after the yard for the money.

i would think the yard wont offer you 2 grand to go away, so the second option is what you might have to do.

luckly you have done all the proper stuff including sending the letter to the yard

 

[JT1019]

Why bother calling your personal insurance claim department when you can call the claim department of the yards liability carrier? If you call your insurance company two things are going to happen; you will get paid a fraction of the cost for a repaint and the insurance company will utilize right of first recovery and subrogate the claim thus resulting in another claim.

Personally I would recommend you inform the yard that you will be contacting the insurance company of the yard to submit a claim under general liability for the damage done to your boat. Should they want to protect themselves from a guaranteed premium increase they can at this time opt to repaint your boat with nothing claimed to the insurance company. This would be a good time to express that if you submit a formal you will also be asking for any and all expenses associated with this mess and you will also look to be compensated for mental anguish.

If you run into issues or have questions, PM me. I do this for a living….

 

[sailingfool]

There's a reason auto body repairers usually paint to a seam - it's almost impossible to feather in a glossy paint finish.

Call your insurance company and find out what they will pay you ((cost of new paint - %depreciation/year*age of paint job) less your deductible). File a claim with your insurer.

If what delta will come out of your pocket hurts too much (remember a new paint job is always worth something...), hire a lawyer and initiate a lawsuit against the yard. After a few letters back and forth, they will offer you a settlement, demand an amount at least equal to your delta.

Get your insurance company's check and hold it. Accept the settlement and cash the yard insurance check.

Cash your own insurance check, and attach a letter to the claim release explaining you have also received a payment from the yard, as a result of your own lawsuit to collect the uninsured difference. Between the two checks you should cover your full cost.

This process is time consuming and a little nerve-wracking, but I have done it myself.

 

[KeelHaulin]

Forget going to your insurance; go after THEIR insurance. In addition; you need to document all of the lay days that the boat is in the yard as a result of this dispute; keep good records and get some more convincing pictures of their "repair".

On a finish that is 2 years old, which could last 20 years if properly maintained, I would accept no more than 10% depreciation. They can't really depreciate it much since the boat was in beautiful condition prior to their crummy haul-out job.

If their insurance refuses to pay then contact both your insurance for assistance recovering from their insurance (but be emphatic that you do not want the claim to go against your policy); or file with small claims court.

I don't know what to tell you about getting your boat back at this point; if you pay the yard fee and have them put the boat back in the water they will want you to sign-off on their "repair". If they scratched it while pulling it out; you can bet that they will do the same putting it back in, so don't let them re-paint it.

Personally I would send a certified letter asking the yard to provide insurance information; and if they don't you will pursue legal action (small claims court; which you would easily win).

 

[JT1019]

Sailingfool.....You are forgetting that right of first recovery goes to the insurance company. If you were to litigate against the yard the insurance company would place a lean on the recovery for whatever they paid out in indemnity. Chances are you would get nothing.

 

[ChicagoNewport27]

Wow.

My yard doesn't use any kind of pads or sheathing on their lift straps, either. Maybe I've just been lucky so far, but so far I'ver gotten no damage to my finish from the lift.

More Pictures, here.

 

[sailingfool]

Sailingfool.....You are forgetting that right of first recovery goes to the insurance company. .... Chances are you would get nothing.

Actually I didn't forget that fact, what I did was to ignore it, as I assumed my insurer wouldn't bother going after the yard for a $3000 claim.

I'm not telling you what I WOULD do, I'm telling you what I DID, in a similar situation, to get full compensation for a depreciated painted hull by collecting from two parties for the same damage.

In the letter accompanying my release back to my insurance company I described the yard's payment as compensating me for my legal costs and the part of the new paint job not covered by their payment. Truth is I got both checks were for the same damage, but it provided a veil allowing my insurer to ignore that fact.

PS - small claims may be $1-2000, not much help for an Awlgrip job.

 

[KeelHaulin]

PS - small claims may be $1-2000, not much help for an Awlgrip job.

Here in California the limit is something like 15k. But yes; good reminder as it does depend on which state you are in.

 

[jasper]

This got me wondering ??? Awlgrip ?? If a boat has an Awlgrip
finish, and the finish is getting old .. What is the procedure to
refinish the surface of the Awlgrip paintjob? Is is less expensive
to refinish an Awlgrip job? Must the paint color be the same?

thanks

 

[hellosailor]

Oooh, you called Awlgrip "paint", that's a no-no. They'll put you on the ban list and refuse to sell you products, while their marketing ninjas come around to unpaint your boat.

They prefer to call it a "coating". See their web site for the procedures, probably a solvent or prep wash, a light scuffing, and then recoating with the new product.

But never, ever, do they get involved with paint.(G)

 

[jason3317]

A couple of quick updates:

1. The Awlgrip factory rep is driving out Monday to take a look at the paint. I had a good conversation with him last week. Basically, Awlgrip's position is that any buffing repairs immediately void the warranty of the paint and will require polishing with Awlcare at least 2-3x per year.

2. I can't remember if I mentioned before, but the yard did indeed buff the damaged areas last week. Without my permission. So, in my mind, they have minimized the acute damage, but exposed me to tremendous downside and significantly increases my maintenance expenditures.

I'll update again after I meet with the Awlgrip dude.