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Master Mariner
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A lot of people are asking, and thinking of when the world will get "back" to normal.
But wait just a minute. Should we really go back to the way things were?

What could be more important than making sure we are prepared for the next pandemic, which we all know will come?
Many metropolitan areas have the lowest air pollution rates in decades. Those in lockdown are able to be introspective, as they may never have before, many finding an inner strength they never knew they had. Families are spending time together and getting to really know each other.

There will be no need to rush to keep up with the Joneses or impulse buying to stimulate the economy.

So, do we really want to go back to the way things were? Back to normal? Were things really that good when things were normal? We have an opportunity here that the human race never has never had before. Perhaps we could call it a reboot.

We could choose to demand public transport so we won't see thousands of gas guzzling SUVs with only one person in them, commuting to work every day. A new, New Deal. We could choose to be kinder and more accepting of our fellow humans and see that EVERYBODY has healthcare, a place to live and food to eat. We'll still have all we need, just perhaps a little bit less of what we want.
We are going to be bombarded by the advertising moguls to buy, buy, buy and get the economy going by spending our money on things we don't need. Will a bigger flat screen TV really improve our lives? Or will a newer, fancier SUV make our lives better, especially if we have an efficient public transport system in every community? Wouldn't it be nice if those who suffered most in this pandemic are helped out by those of us who got by OK?
We humans have this incredible opportunity to fix so many things that went off the rails before this pandemic hit. What about it, care to change the world?
 

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Hunter 386
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We could choose to demand public transport so we won't see thousands of gas guzzling SUVs with only one person in them, commuting to work every day.
To cherrypick one issue, this one has been a source of puzzlement for me for a long time. Coming from a smaller car-oriented city the discussion around public transit has always centered around profit: profitable routes, unprofitable routes, routes that service rush hour and business people but disappear at any other time of day. Fares keep climbing and service keeps dropping.

I went to New York City years ago. Transit there was cheaper, more efficient by an order of magnitude and didn't need me to memorize a massive tome of times and routes to get from point A to point B. Of course they have to move millions of people in order to avoid chaos, but I think smaller centers could have learned a thing or two.

But now, during the covid emergency, public transit is free. I can only hope that when it's all done and dusted that the powers that be realize that it's a public service, does nothing but good, and really, really can never be expected to be profitable or even revenue neutral. "Free" sounds like a recipe for success to me.

And as you pointed out, there are some many other lessons we might learn.
 

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Senior Member
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Course that same mass transit led to spreading this virus more quickly.

I agree however with what you said
 

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Captain Obvious
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I think so capta, but in a s strange way. Since you and I are both Americans, I can say it plainly; The U.S is the embodiment of selfish, destructive and short sighted ideas of people who just cannot accept the future. They aren't introspective, they are clouded and corrupted into something like fascism. Look at Ammon Bundy. This disease is hitting us hard and its one more thing on top of many other problems we have created for ourselves. As the U.S loses its place as leader a lot of its terrible ideas will become less relevant. I am a long suffering very left leaning progressive, I was studying renewable energy and environmentally sustainable architecture since I was an architecture student at Pratt more than 30 years ago. I imagined a bright future not all this stupidity and darkness. I couldn't have imagined President Trump and his followers, **** them all. I never imagined things would go down this nightmare road. I have about 2 years to go until my pension kicks in and I really am thinking of joining you expats. GTFO. Canada seems decent for summers and the Caribbean for winter. I don't need these problems, I don't want my kids growing up with these problems, and I think they are going to continue.
 

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Master Mariner
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Discussion Starter #5
To cherrypick one issue, this one has been a source of puzzlement for me for a long time. Coming from a smaller car-oriented city the discussion around public transit has always centered around profit: profitable routes, unprofitable routes, routes that service rush hour and business people but disappear at any other time of day. Fares keep climbing and service keeps dropping.

I went to New York City years ago. Transit there was cheaper, more efficient by an order of magnitude and didn't need me to memorize a massive tome of times and routes to get from point A to point B. Of course they have to move millions of people in order to avoid chaos, but I think smaller centers could have learned a thing or two.

But now, during the covid emergency, public transit is free. I can only hope that when it's all done and dusted that the powers that be realize that it's a public service, does nothing but good, and really, really can never be expected to be profitable or even revenue neutral. "Free" sounds like a recipe for success to me.

And as you pointed out, there are some many other lessons we might learn.
Wouldn't cleaner air be worth the cost to the public? It could certainly reduce chronic respiratory problems and therefore a load on healthcare?
Just a thought.
 

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Master Mariner
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Discussion Starter #7
I think so capta, but in a s strange way. Since you and I are both Americans, I can say it plainly; The U.S is the embodiment of selfish, destructive and short sighted ideas of people who just cannot accept the future. This is hitting us hard and its one more thing on top of many other problems we have created for ourselves. As the U.S loses its place as leader a lot of its terrible ideas will become less relevant. I am a long suffering very left leaning progressive, I was studying renewable energy and environmentally sustainable architecture since I was an architecture student at Pratt more than 30 years ago. I imagined a bright future not all this stupidity and darkness. I couldn't have imagined President Trump and his followers, **** them all. I never imagined things would go down this nightmare road. I have about 2 years to go until my pension kicks in and I really am thinking of joining you expats. GTFO. Canada seems decent for summers and the Caribbean for winter. I don't need these problems, I don't want my kids growing up with these problems, and I think they are going to continue.
Obviously we agree.
I just wanted to throw it out there and maybe it will catch on and folks all over he world will see the light. Well, maybe some. Well, maybe a few. I know it is a forlorn hope, but.....it could happen?
 

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Senior Member
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A lot of people are asking, and thinking of when the world will get "back" to normal.
But wait just a minute. Should we really go back to the way things were?

What could be more important than making sure we are prepared for the next pandemic, which we all know will come?
Many metropolitan areas have the lowest air pollution rates in decades. Those in lockdown are able to be introspective, as they may never have before, many finding an inner strength they never knew they had. Families are spending time together and getting to really know each other.

There will be no need to rush to keep up with the Joneses or impulse buying to stimulate the economy.

So, do we really want to go back to the way things were? Back to normal? Were things really that good when things were normal? We have an opportunity here that the human race never has never had before. Perhaps we could call it a reboot.

We could choose to demand public transport so we won't see thousands of gas guzzling SUVs with only one person in them, commuting to work every day. A new, New Deal. We could choose to be kinder and more accepting of our fellow humans and see that EVERYBODY has healthcare, a place to live and food to eat. We'll still have all we need, just perhaps a little bit less of what we want.
We are going to be bombarded by the advertising moguls to buy, buy, buy and get the economy going by spending our money on things we don't need. Will a bigger flat screen TV really improve our lives? Or will a newer, fancier SUV make our lives better, especially if we have an efficient public transport system in every community? Wouldn't it be nice if those who suffered most in this pandemic are helped out by those of us who got by OK?
We humans have this incredible opportunity to fix so many things that went off the rails before this pandemic hit. What about it, care to change the world?
I hope you are right.
I am very much a positive person. It will take some perceived sacrifices from individuals to more thinking about their neighbors.

For some it will require a huge paradigm shift

Look on here at the posts.

You have some still maintaining they should have the right to use their boats. They refuse to equate that the stay in place most are practicing is saving lives. They describe some of us who support this as hysterical, they describe us with pitchforks and barricades.

I only see this from the rich and fortunate. Rarely is this attitude displayed by the people most affect by the virus. Most of us are in the middle, we really see the suffering and want to help it. You see the marvelous people helping each other, taking care of their neighbors, working in the health care field, supply chain, supermarkets, cashiers. Remember how many of these are without jobs.

Instead they are focused on its not fair for the govt to prevent them from traveling where they want and using their boats. No one begrudges anyone who has worked hard and long to by a boat for pleasure. Surely I am in that group. But I’m in the middle. My world doesn’t end if I can’t, especially if it’s to help all my neighbors, especially when it is only temporary.

Capt, how does this change. You see it seep into this small microcosm of mostly well to do sailors. Few of us live on the poverty line. Do we owe it to our neighbors to think of them?

Health care....I hope this changes even the hardest of opinions.

Look I’m no socialist. In the 60s and 70s very liberal I was considered. I wanted equal rights for women, minorities, helping people not as well off. Certainly not so liberal today thoughts. I have gravitated to become a moderate...liberal on social issues, conservative on the military and controls.

So how do we take an issue which broke us into liberal and not.....health care for all, and move it into the best for everyone area. Maybe this will be the reboot for this issue. How can anyone not want all Americans to have care when they got this.

I’m an optimist. And a realist....and a pragmatist.
 
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This pandemic is a golden opportunity to NOT go back to "the way we were" but to go forward with a NEW normal.

America has ENORMOUS problems because of its flawed constitution which is almost impossible to correct/amend. The notion of States' rights has fractured America... We might want to consider two nations... a red one and a blue one... each nation needs to be "self sustaining".... good luck Red...

Red and Blue should support those who want to move to the other... populations move all the time. Move the libertarians and right wingers to Red and the liberals to Blue. It's a big project, but doable if there is a will.

Oh I foirgot... a third nation... Gold... no multimillionaires and billionaires Blue for sure.. they can have a chunk of real estate and use their money for whatever. How about Nantucket?

++++

We hopefully have learned some lessons from Covid 19... things like what a good health care delivery system would look like. That low wage workers and the service are what's holding up society. That trickle down has made this a nation of poor people with food uncertainty... abominable health outcomes... a decrepit infrastructure which is lagging behind the rest of the world...

Time for a 2nd American revolution.
 

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Captain Obvious
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Capta, you wrote:

"Those in lockdown are able to be introspective, as they may never have before, many finding an inner strength they never knew they had. Families are spending time together and getting to really know each other.There will be no need to rush to keep up with the Joneses or impulse buying to stimulate the economy."


You really think this confinement created an epiphany? Is there any evidence that this epiphany has occurred? I haven't heard about it.
 

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IMO Things will change but, not the way you think. People will start to abandon cities like New York as there mass transportation systems and density are now considered incubators of disease when Pandemics like COVID-19 hit.

Corporations will have discovered that remote work solutions like Zoom are efficient and allow them to abandon the high cost and expenses of office space. Office buildings will shrink.

People will embrace the idea of working from home and forgo the idea of getting on commuter railroads and buses. Mass transportation will lose it's allure.

Likewise remote education will have tremendous benefits for teachers, students and taxpayers. The idea of transporting millions of students to and fro buildings everyday is an archaic way to educate them.
Remote teaching avoids the dangers of diseases being introduced into class rooms.
Students who do become sick will not be missing classes since they are being taught remotely.
No more snow days too.
Unruly students will no longer disrupt classrooms and the students will be more attentive knowing there is a parent hovering nearby.
Parents and administrators can also observe teachers on a daily basis and how well they teach.
Taxpayers will no longer have to pay for massive school buildings and the enormous tax burden will become much less of a burden.

Tele medicine will also become the norm too. Doctors will be able to observe patients and decide whether they actually need see a patient in person or send them to another specialists or medical facility. Much more efficient and convenient for both patient and doctors. Medical costs will be cheaper too. More people will have access to it too.

It will be a game changer. People will still have to work but, not have travel far from their homes like they currently do.
 

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Captain Obvious
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In all of human history, has a disease determined where people chose to live?

You really think NYC is going to be abandoned?
 

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I imagined a bright future not all this stupidity and darkness. I couldn't have imagined President Trump and his followers, **** them all.
Spoken like a true American? What happened to accepting the outcome of an election as the American way and working with the opposition to move forward?

Trashing half of the population seems to be a two-way street these days: that’s where the stupidity and darkness is to be found.
 

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Spoken like a true American? What happened to accepting the outcome of an election as the American way and working with the opposition to move forward?

Trashing half of the population seems to be a two-way street these days: that’s where the stupidity and darkness is to be found.
More than half the population I could do without.
 

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Master Mariner
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Discussion Starter #17
Likewise remote education will have tremendous benefits for teachers, students and taxpayers. The idea of transporting millions of students to and fro buildings everyday is an archaic way to educate them.
Remote teaching avoids the dangers of diseases being introduced into class rooms.
Students who do become sick will not be missing classes since they are being taught remotely.
No more snow days too.
Unruly students will no longer disrupt classrooms and the students will be more attentive knowing there is a parent hovering nearby.
Parents and administrators can also observe teachers on a daily basis and how well they teach.
Taxpayers will no longer have to pay for massive school buildings and the enormous tax burden will become much less of a burden. .
I see all the above as negatives in every way except economic, but even at that, the government would need to supply every student with whatever learning machine was in use and the connection to use it.
Without the social interaction with other students, children will become isolated grow up to be antisocial. Sports (other than video game type sports) would disappear and entertainment and activities outside the home would too. I don't see how people, adults and children, would get the exercise needed in a society that rarely left their abode.
Without the small sicknesses passed between students in the schools, they will grow up with much fewer immunities.
Snow days are fun.
As for attentive parents, have you tried this new, new math they are getting? The old 'new' math was bad but this is just nutso crazy.
I sincerely believe what you are suggesting would be the end of society as we know it in a generation or two, and not for the better.
 

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Old soul
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I've been quick to see the possible negative outcomes of all this authoritarian activity we're seeing everywhere, but there are many positives lessons we could learn as we get back to a new normal. Hopefully some of these will become the long-term "lessons learned."

One big one for me is how quickly all developed nations have moved to install some sort of Guaranteed Basic Income. Direct transfers of wealth to individuals (not only business, as we saw in the last big crisis: the Great Recession) is now both acceptable and desirable.

Ex: Spain is moving to establish permanent basic income in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic

We've also learning how essential public services like healthcare systems are to everyone. Hopefully this will lead to a strengthening of these systems, as opposed to the continual pressure most have faced to cut and squeeze.

And, we're learning to value the people that our societies traditionally treat like crap. The front line workers in stores, healthcare facilities, essential public services, delivery people, and the like. These are often some of the the lowest paid jobs, yet in this time of crisis we are all learning how essential they are to all of us.

I have hope that we'll learn some of these more positive lessons once the dust settles on this public health crisis.
 

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Oh, I accepted the outcome.

What I don't accept is the morality and values that continue to support orange Mussolini as anything worthy of respect. He is frankly despicable and is as distressing as the pandemic.
Disparaging the opposition because you don’t like Trump (or Pelosi, or McConnell or Schumer, etc ) with name calling (applies to either side) is hardly the basis for an adult discussion, let alone a platform for claiming the moral high ground.

The pejoratives (eg. “orange Mussolini”, “sleepy Joe”, “basket of deplorable”, etc.) flying around the American political scene are not helpful. Let’s hope that this plague passes and we don’t get back to that kind of normal.
 
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