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In all of human history, has a disease determined where people chose to live?

You really think NYC is going to be abandoned?
No not totally but, the bloom is off the rose. I was listening to a business reporter in Lexington Kentucky the other night mentioning that he is noticing that many of the younger generation are now moving back to the area after leaving for cities like New York. I worked there for twenty years and I now notice what a hard, noisy and dirty place it is to live. I pretty much just transit through on my way to somewhere else these days. I avoided the Subways even before this Pandemic. Those who need to take mass transportation after things open up are going to be even more stressed everyday. Wondering what new virus or microbe are they breathing in everyday.
 

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People live in NYC for many reasons and work is only one of them... cultural activities is a huge pull.
Many of which most locals can't afford. Not everyone can afford $600 tickets to see Hamilton. It's mostly tourist going to Broadway shows these er.. those days. :) It will be interesting to see how being the Virus hot spot of the world will affect New York's tourist industry. But, it could take a very big hit for years to come as people make risk reward decisions about there travel plans.
 

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Captain Obvious
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Right. 23,500 Americans are dead. Thousands more dying. 800 a day dead in NYC. 17 Million Americans suddenly unemployed.


My heavens I hope we don't hear impolite language. That's the problem. Manners,


****ing ********.
 

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Quite honestly, I don't see much changing.

It will be sometime until things get back to "normal." Under the best scenario we are probably 18 months from a vaccine to Covid-19. Realistically, it may take a lot longer. Hopefully, in the meantime, we will develop some successful treatment options to tie us over until then.

When the stay-at-home orders are lifted, my family and I will enjoy our outdoor activities (including sailing), but I have no desire, in the short term, to be in either larger indoor or outdoor venues until Covid-19 is clearly a thing of the past.

Maybe I'm an odd duck, but I like my "gas-guzzling" pickup and I like to use public transportations (train and commuter bus) whenever I can. I drive an 8-year-old Dodge Ram with a 5.7 liter Hemi engine (16 m.p.g.). I bought this truck, new, because I needed a truck. Used it to remodel my house and currently use it to pull a trailer.

One change I hope to see is to America's health care system. We have large sections of our population without insurance, we pay some of the highest costs for drugs in the world, and those of us even with good health insurance can sometimes get hit with huge medical bills.

Jim
 

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I've been quick to see the possible negative outcomes of all this authoritarian activity we're seeing everywhere, but there are many positives lessons we could learn as we get back to a new normal. Hopefully some of these will become the long-term "lessons learned."

One big one for me is how quickly all developed nations have moved to install some sort of Guaranteed Basic Income. Direct transfers of wealth to individuals (not only business, as we saw in the last big crisis: the Great Recession) is now both acceptable and desirable.

Ex: Spain is moving to establish permanent basic income in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic

We've also learning how essential public services like healthcare systems are to everyone. Hopefully this will lead to a strengthening of these systems, as opposed to the continual pressure most have faced to cut and squeeze.

And, we're learning to value the people that our societies traditionally treat like crap. The front line workers in stores, healthcare facilities, essential public services, delivery people, and the like. These are often some of the the lowest paid jobs, yet in this time of crisis we are all learning how essential they are to all of us.

I have hope that we'll learn some of these more positive lessons once the dust settles on this public health crisis.

I was in Doha a few years ago. An amazing city that sprung up in the desert. There was a billboard I noticed on my way to the hotel that read "Without Ambition this would all still be desert" Just giving money to people is a sure way to kill their ambition and drive to achieve. It's why the United States attracts millions of immigrants both legal and illegal. They know the have the ability to reap the rewards of their labor. Possibilities exist here that are not available in other countries. Making people "comfortably numb" with unearned money will kill the ambition that makes people want move upward and achieve things to better their lives.
 

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To cherrypick one issue, this one has been a source of puzzlement for me for a long time. Coming from a smaller car-oriented city the discussion around public transit has always centered around profit: profitable routes, unprofitable routes, routes that service rush hour and business people but disappear at any other time of day. Fares keep climbing and service keeps dropping.

I went to New York City years ago. Transit there was cheaper, more efficient by an order of magnitude and didn't need me to memorize a massive tome of times and routes to get from point A to point B. Of course they have to move millions of people in order to avoid chaos, but I think smaller centers could have learned a thing or two.

But now, during the covid emergency, public transit is free. I can only hope that when it's all done and dusted that the powers that be realize that it's a public service, does nothing but good, and really, really can never be expected to be profitable or even revenue neutral. "Free" sounds like a recipe for success to me.

And as you pointed out, there are some many other lessons we might learn.
I spent a lot of time working around mass transit. Mostly maintenance and construction but I also worked with planners.

I completely agree that it should be made free to the greatest extent possible. Traditional systems spend 25% to 35% of revenue generated simply in collecting that revenue. Modern electronic systems do better but at high capital and maintenance cost. So I don’t know those numbers but they are not zero.

Mass transit, excluding regional rail, are generally a regressive tax on the population who needs the help most. It’s really not cheap to ride when you are making minimum wage and 5 hours a shift. If we want to encourage the unemployed to work the remove the barrier.

Then there is the argument that a transit system is like a underutilized factory. Society has paid the capital expense but it does not work at full capacity. By allowing free ridership you are encouraging the tax base and reaping the investment. And it provides relief for inner city roadways and parking.

On the either hand social distancing is going to stigmatize mass transit, hurt ridership. How badly I don’t know. Making it free will encourage it use.
 

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How many “eye opening” events have we had recently?
Dot.com bubble
9/11
2008 melt down

Yet our financial systems are still a mess, military/industrial complex going like crazy, more complaints about fiscal inequity, and so it goes. What did we learn?

Humans are simply not wired to do much in the way of advanced planning. It CAN be done but only in special circumstances by folks who have been trained to create and follow specific procedures. We can’t do it individually and are generally not disposed to do it in organizations.

There will be some changes:
Mass transit will take a hit
People will rust bump
We will distrust one another more
There will be more anxiety, depression, suicide
More authoritarian rule
More loss of privacy

But I personally don’t think h the trajectory of the human species will be significantly altered.

I’m not happy with that assessment. It’s just what I expect based on past experience.
 

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So the Govs at all levels placate the needy and nervous with subsidies until insolvency makes money only worth what you can buy with it. No taxes to refill the trough. New currency may play havoc with this. I remember one morning when the Franc just moved their decimal over a couple of notches,,, .took some adjusting .Screwed up prices and savings.but nobody burned the local stores.
 

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Many of which most locals can't afford. Not everyone can afford $600 tickets to see Hamilton. It's mostly tourist going to Broadway shows these er.. those days. :) It will be interesting to see how being the Virus hot spot of the world will affect New York's tourist industry. But, it could take a very big hit for years to come as people make risk reward decisions about there travel plans.
Come on Mike... not everyone goes or buys super expensive tix... but they sports arena seem to do well. There are plenty of free social things in NY or very inexpensive like museums... concerts in the park.. music clubs and so on. even Lincoln center has seats for $25. There are restaurants from around the world at all price points.
 

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Captain Obvious
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How many “eye opening” events have we had recently?
Dot.com bubble
9/11
2008 melt down


But I personally don’t think h the trajectory of the human species will be significantly altered.

I’m not happy with that assessment. It’s just what I expect based on past experience.
The stolen election of George Bush.

The Iraq War and Afganistan. The longest war in our history, and the most futile.

The election of Trump and the whole debacle right down to the present feels like a 50 year trial by fire.

Nothing learned in any of those either I'm afraid. Good post. Bad news, but good post.
 

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Captain Obvious
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Many of which most locals can't afford. Not everyone can afford $600 tickets to see Hamilton. It's mostly tourist going to Broadway shows these er.. those days. :) It will be interesting to see how being the Virus hot spot of the world will affect New York's tourist industry. But, it could take a very big hit for years to come as people make risk reward decisions about there travel plans.
Nah, when its over its over. When its beaten, when there is a vaccine, it will be gone. Broadway will still be Broadway. Its not like people stopped going to Paris in the 50's and 60's because Hitler had taken it over in 1940. There is nothing like NYC.
 

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NYC is unique it definitely has its niche
So are many other cities and areas of this country
There is culture and great museums in other areas of the country
There are cities more international like DC
There are other great restaurant cities around the US

I think you have to live other areas and places to understand the value of NYC.

Not everyone wants to live vertically surrounded by millions
The cost to live is exorbanent
There is very little green space

I’m not downing NYC because I love it and appreciate it for its uniqueness and energy. I have many friends who live in the city and the surrounding burbs.
 

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I was in Doha a few years ago. An amazing city that sprung up in the desert. There was a billboard I noticed on my way to the hotel that read "Without Ambition this would all still be desert" Just giving money to people is a sure way to kill their ambition and drive to achieve. It's why the United States attracts millions of immigrants both legal and illegal. They know the have the ability to reap the rewards of their labor. Possibilities exist here that are not available in other countries. Making people "comfortably numb" with unearned money will kill the ambition that makes people want move upward and achieve things to better their lives.
Mike, this is the same old theory that is trotted out every time we get anywhere near this kind of discussion. It simply is not true. There is actual evidence to show it is not true. It's been studied using real people in real situations. It's a belief based on a false understanding of human nature.

People are driven to be productive for a multitude of reasons. Psychologists, sociologists, and the growing field of behavioral economics well understands this. Monetary gain is only one of these reasons, and it falls far down the list of motivations. Just ask anyone living on a pension or other passive financial means (such as many cruisers). Most continue to live engaged, productive and ambitious lives.

As I say, I hope one of the lessons we can all learn from the current crisis is that the sky won't fall if we continue to adopt some version of a guaranteed income. It's certainly being embraced by everyone now.
 

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NYC is unique it definitely has its niche
So are many other cities and areas of this country
There is culture and great museums in other areas of the country
There are cities more international like DC
There are other great restaurant cities around the US

I think you have to live other areas and places to understand the value of NYC.
useums
Not everyone wants to live vertically surrounded by millions
The cost to live is exorbanent
There is very little green space

I’m not downing NYC because I love it and appreciate it for its uniqueness and energy. I have many friends who live in the city and the surrounding burbs.
Indeed. I spent time in both NYC and DC. DC is definitely a more livable city. Very International and many more museums that are free. The various Embassy's often offer free concerts on Friday and Saturday nights highlighting world class musicians from their home countries. Many more parks with walking/biking trails like Rock Creek Park. Apartment buildings that are not so tall that you are forced to use elevators which are bad places to pick up bugs when a pandemic rages. Not to mention the waterfront and marina on the Potomac. Also a much cleaner Subway system that is large enough to allow proper social distance requirements.
 

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Mike, this is the same old theory that is trotted out every time we get anywhere near this kind of discussion. It simply is not true. There is actual evidence to show it is not true. It's been studied using real people in real situations. It's a belief based on a false understanding of human nature.

People are driven to be productive for a multitude of reasons. Psychologists, sociologists, and the growing field of behavioral economics well understands this. Monetary gain is only one of these reasons, and it falls far down the list of motivations. Just ask anyone living on a pension or other passive financial means (such as many cruisers). Most continue to live engaged, productive and ambitious lives.

As I say, I hope one of the lessons we can all learn from the current crisis is that the sky won't fall if we continue to adopt some version of a guaranteed income. It's certainly being embraced by everyone now.
Certainly those of us who have boats have interesting and enjoyable lives. But, that's also because we had the drive to make the dream of owning a boat a reality. People don't often just get a boat handed to them. You have to make it happen to really appreciate it.
 

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I work in DC. What you said is true.

However the crime is brutal. Those beautiful areas of monuments and museums during the day Are dangerous when the sun goes down. Two blocks from the embassies is abject poverty. Across the River in Anacostia gangs are the rule and hold court.

There is a huge dichotomy between the rich and powerful and the citizens of DC. International more than NY. I can tell you that in the demographics of all of my 800 employees. Embassy’s bringing people who feel they don’t have to follow the rules of law as they have diplomatic immunity. No large city is a panacea. Especially DC.

The wealth has field to its suburbs and over the River to Virginia.

Both cities suffer from Beltway Fever feeling that the whole world is fixated on watching them. The outside world however feels disconnected and does feel the people are living in their own bubble.

That my read and I sticking to it😀😀😀😀😀
 

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I honestly don't see a lot changing for global societies. This event is just a blip in human history. Perhaps there will be some changes to how people work in some industries now that working from home is getting a good trial run, but that would just be a accelerating a trend already brought on by the information age.

For the sake of our neighbors in the USA I hope this experience will bring on a political shift. We have already seen the progressive ideas of democratic socialism starting to gain popularity as evidenced by the grass roots support of the likes of Berni Sanders, AOC et al. Now this pandemic is exposing the fatal flaws of the fragmented for profit health care system. Americans need to get over the idea that all socialism is bad, and akin to the Soviet era or Venezuela. The notion is absurd, yet a vast number of Americans believe it, and continue to vote against their best interests. Ironically socialism is alive and well in the USA as it pertains to corporations and the very weathy who seem to get trillions of public dollars whenever there is a crisis, even if they caused the crisis.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
 

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And actual bailing out citizens, industry and paying for ALL Covid 19 medical bulls for EVERYONE is in its self a socialism act.

I agree with the change in leadership. I always have been a proponent of changing the Health Care model, just not sure that Bernies Medicare for all is the answer.

Restaurants will be changed forever as will educational learning only in a classroom
There will be more virtual medicine practiced

Not sure that the isolation is a good thing to learn. People will be more disconnected and disjointed. Social distancing will / is becoming the buzzword from this.

I’ll bet sexually there were on one hand far less one night hookups, though my newborn nurse wife says to expect a baby boom in 8-9 months.
 

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Today, after returning from seeing no humans, TV, radio, or news of "the Rona" for a good while, we sat outside, back home, gazing at the now closed Shenandoah National Park and its 215,000 plus acres that is our view shed. Who would have thought. We sat by our fire ring and remembered another time sitting there looking up and realizing that there had been no planes visible all day...September 12, 2001 to be exact, with the same "who would have imagined" thoughts. I'm not sure everyone is being introspective but we spend much time being so and grateful with believing the best is to come. We are 67 and hope to have a full life ahead (Heck we just got back into sailing after 25 years just three years ago!) but truly are not fearful of death. There is no point to that. I'm more afraid of not living.

"all men die, few men ever really live....don’t ask yourself what the world needs, ask yourself what makes you come alive, because what the world needs are men who have come alive.”
― John Eldredge
 

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I don't understand the criticism of NYC which is one of the most remarkable places to live. It is the epitome of urbanism. Because of its size.... and it is so because it attracts people for many reasons... there are are problems which have not been successfully solved as similar problems in smaller cities.

For those who don't care for the density of the city NY has burbs which extend in 50 or more miles in all directions and include horse farms, huge estates, marinas, state parks, farms, and skiing just over a hundred miles from times square.

Urbanization means vertical living and with that comes vertical transport and mass transit. These are not evils. NYC is constantly evolving and improving. It is making bicycling a viable means to get around... NY has several amazing huge parks... Central, Prospect, Pelham Bay, Flushing Meadow. It has several beaches, and two magnificent botanical gardens, the best art museums and galleries, Broadway, and and world class zoo and aquarium. stables, golf courses, sports stadiums, and magnificent bridges and architecture.

NYC is the most international city with 800 languages spoken and 50% of households speak ONLY English. It is home to the United nations, dance and opera companies and ethnic restaurants including 2 Chinatowns. It even has a working farm!

All of the above is what makes NYC the remarkable city it is. Ir doesn't appeal to all as a place to live but people from all over the USA and the world flock to NYC to take advantage of its offerings and the incredible variety found there,

I suggest those who find NYC unlivable study urban design
 
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