The tartan 3500 is the better boat. Both are great boats. However you are not comparing apples to apples. the size differential makes the equation lopsided. given a choice between a 40 footer and 35 footer, I''d take the 40 (I currently own a 40 foot beneteau and love the extra room). As far as deals go, I can get you great deals on the bavaria 40, tartan 3700, a C&C 121 and all Dufours.
If you want a great sailing boat, well built and affordable, the Dufour Classic 38 or 41 are phenomenal and if you write me - I''ll explain why. If you don''t like the Dufour interiors, we can customize it for you and you''ll be more than happy.
Write me at "[email protected]" and we can talk more about. My company is ABD Yacht Sales and Services, Inc.
With all due respect, this board has a post no commercial messages policy. I think that most of your posts have contained useful information and have fallen in a grey zone on the commercial post issue. To me this post feels like it is closer to violating the commercial post regulations than is appropriate. (I may be alone in this interpretation, and I certainly ask that others to politely pipe in on this one way of the other.) I guess one thing that bothers me about this is that Dufour has a generally poor reputation in this country and so it seems odd to see them recommended so strongly.
Sorry about the commercialism, Lost my perspective. the confusion arose from so many postings by individuals selling their own boats. I am a buyers broker not a dealer. I''ll assist any individual looking to find the right boat and I thought I was helping. It seemed Fred was making a decision based on "getting a good deal". It was my intention to point him in the right direction.
This is not a commercial message - just a clarification. There will no further postings like this.
Now about the Dufour. I do not know what constitutes a bad reputation about a manufacturer and how you arrived at this conclusion. My experience with yacht purchase (as is the case with car purchases) is that service is provided by dealers. And as we all know - there are some good dealers and unfortunatley some crooked ones. And even some of the good dealers are lacking in "service after the sale".
Yes, the french can be difficult to work with but Don Walsh, the Dufour factory representative in Annapolis is very accommodatng.
As I''ve observed in these postings, there seems to be alot of misunderstanding about the points individuals try to make. The issue here was bavaria vs tartan and I answered that question. I have some experience with both. However, the bavaria is not in the same league as a Tartan. My feeling is that the Dufour is a better choice over a Bavaria and should be considered. I''m sure one of the Dufour dealers would work closely with Fred if he were interested.
The important aspects of the Dufour construction, the ones you all seem to focus on (hull layup, materials, deck to hull bonding, engines, rigging, steering and durability) are well addressed in the Dufour. For a new production boat, in the price range of the Benehuntalinas and Bavaria the Dufour is one of my first choices. Of this group, the Dufour is the Lexus/Infinity of the bunch
By the way, both Moorings and Sunsail added about 50 each of the Dufour-Gib''Sea yachts to their fleets in the past year. I''m told by representatives at both companies they plan to add alot more.
Thanks for the opportunity to be of assistance and for the guidance in your responses.
I appreciate your clarification and agree that it contains some useful information (especially about the current Annapolis Dufour dealer who I had never heard anything about. The prior Dufour dealer in Annapolis had a real mixed reputation with some people swearing by him and other swearing at him.)
I have always considered the Dufours to fall somewhere between the Beneteau''s Oceanis (or numbered series) and their First Series. I have never been impressed with their rigs or hull forms (the classic series still uses IOR era rig proportions and hull forms) or some of their detailing. Of the boats of this type, I especially like the Dehlers in terms of build quality.
Jeff - It seems to me that you are in the Annapolis area and that you are one of the rare individuals who likes to get as much accurate information as possible. Your knowledge and detailes answers to members questions has been very helpful and informative for me.
Don Walsh is the US Director of Sales and marketing for Dufour. He is a truly honorable man and would surely enjoy meeting or talking to you. He''ll most likely be at the Annapolis Boat Show but if not I can get you his address and phone number if you want.
Again - the reasons I like the Dufour is the incredible quality and features in the key areas I mentioned in my other posts. From my perspective, interiors can always be modified a lot cheaper than trying to install rack & pinion steering, through bolted hull/deck joints, saildrive engines & transmission, self aligning rudder bearings and vacuum assisted hulls. It''s safety, quality and integrity of the hulls, reliability of engines, steering, running and standing rigging, etc. that most everyone''s questions are about whether thier considering buying a classic used yacht, late model production boat or new designs seen at the boat shows.
Although Fred isn''t comparing apples to apples, he still chose to consider two well made yachts. One will just need more tweaking than the other.
Maybe I''ll see you at Annapolis Boat show if I can get away.
Seeing this topic is quite ironic in that it hits right at a primary consideration I have, and I''d be interested in some more thoughts. Having looked at the T3500 (which has been significantly redone) and the Bavaria 37 they are close in overall measurements. If money were no object I''d probably by the Tartan without hesitation. But regretably it is not...from what I can tell, comparably equiped, there is about a $50k to $60K price difference. Or put in other terms the T3500 is 40 to 50% more than the Bavaria. Is it worth it--for a Chesapeake Bay sailor (not going to be any blue water use)? And if I could somehow scrape up the difference? And don''t suggest buying a slightly used one since the hull#112 (2000)and latter have almost 3" more headroom, which is an issue for the firstmate.
I''m quite familiar with the Bavaria Yachts. Horizon Yacht Charters in Tortola sells and uses them in their charter fleets. The boats are put together nicely, sail well and are reasonably priced. Being a production boat, some costs savings is noticeable in the finish work in the interior and other less significant areas.
However, important areas like, hull and deck construction, engines, steering and rigging are built well. Although the Tartan is a better built and more versatile boat, with the $50k to $60k you''ll save with the Bavaria, any upgrades you decide to make will be less costly than the full price of a Tartan.
I have to really disagree with Ron on this one. The glass work on the Bavaria was really poorly done. I had expected a quality boat like a Dehler. I found a boat that appeared to be well below a Beneteau or Hunter in quality. While the Tartans did not appear to be as well built and finished as earlier Tartans, they at least seemed to be solidly built.
Can you be more specific about what you see as the build quality problem(s) with the Bavaria? And exactly waht did you see that was unsatisfactory with the glass work? My inspections at the Boat Show and in Deltaville didn''t turn up anything that caught my eye but then again maybe I''ve been blinded by the emotional appeal.
I own a Bavaria 37 out her on the west coast, and am a satisfied owner. As mentioned by someone else, the important things, hull, deck, mechanical, rigging, sails, hatches, are all very good. I would have to disagree with the poor glasswork observation. The Kevlar reinforced hull, with latitudnal and longitudnal stringers provide a stiff hull. In paritcular, the systems, electrical and plumbing are very well setup. For value, I would recommend the Bavaria. Tartans do have more handbuilt features, but remain a prodution boat nevertheless.
The Bavaria 37 I sail I feel certain would outperform in all aspects sailwise. I have sailed all the hunters, Jeaneaus, and catalinas of similar size.
To qualify my own opinion (as that is what this is) I have owned 6 sailboats over 25 years, sailing primarily out of San Francisco Bay. My wife and I have sailed our current Bavaria in SF Bay, Pacific Coast, Mexico, and currently keep the boat at Channel Islands Marina.
I encourage other Bavaria owners or those considering to contact me.