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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So I have my eye on a Bayfield 32C and Aloha 32.

The plan is to liveaboard in the western portion of Lake Ontario, sailing all over the lake, rigging the boat for bluewater cruising before finally breaking out onto the oceans of the world.

My concern is that Lake Ontario has prevailing Northwest to Southwest winds. So while a Bayfield cutter may be the better offhsore boat, it supposedly has poor windward performance due to the long keel, supposedly crabs badly, and so would probably be quite slow and hard going coming back west from, say, a visit to Kingston or the Thousand Islands.

Can anyone with experience on the Bayfield's tell me how they'll sail on Lake Ontario? Is the windward performance bad enough that I should consider the Aloha 32 instead, even if just temporarily?

I would be grateful if all you experienced folks could give your opinions on how these two boats compare. Thank you!
 

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I sailed a Bayfeild 32 across Lake Huron in fairly light air, mostly on the wind. I was surprised at how well it sailed up wind. Others will have more experience than I but it went pretty well.

Gary
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well, alright, that clinches it! My survey is now complete! :)

Two for the Aloha and one sort of for the Bayfield.

Thank you everyone who replied.

I wonder why the Aloha is not on the Offshore Cruising Boats list but the Bayfield is, despite the Bayfield being a "slug." I'm kind of using that list as a sign of quality.
 

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The reason the aloha may not be on the list is scarcity... the list generally has the more common boats, but the Alohas weren't a big production run IIRC. :)
 

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As far as quality goes Aloha is definitely on a par with Bayfield. As SD said it is more a question of availability. AFAIK the Aloha's are not well known outside of Ontario.
 

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Here's a third vote for the Aloha - both are "character" boats in their own way, but I think the Aloha will have the edge performance wise.

There are a couple of layouts with the Aloha - the dinette-forward layout is a bit unconventional but could work for a couple - frequent guests might be a challenge.
 

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I personally would not use the offshore cruise list as a sign of quality per say! But as a sign that there are certain criteria that are met for offshore work. IE tankage amounts, roll over resistance etc. Just because it is on that list, does not make it the correct boat for you!

As far as the two boats in question, I have heard of them, not seen them, so will not comment there. But I do prefer a boat with speed over a full keel slug of an old shoe style boat! Which I believe the Backfield is more on this line, than the Aloha.

marty
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Oh wow, is the Bayfield really that slow? Ok, so everyone says she's a slug, but what does that mean in real world terms?

For example, I'm heading westbound on Lake Ontario, winds are 10 knots from the west, am I going to be moving at 3 knots on the Bayfield no matter what, just because I'm reaching to windward? Is that what everyone means by slug?

By the way, the Aloha was grabbed. Oh well. The decision is now Bayfield versus Douglas 32 and the C & C 30+'s.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I personally would not use the offshore cruise list as a sign of quality per say! But as a sign that there are certain criteria that are met for offshore work. IE tankage amounts, roll over resistance etc. Just because it is on that list, does not make it the correct boat for you!

marty
Well, part of the reason I'm using the list is because I want to eventually take this boat offshore. Most likely transatlantic (Canada to Iceland, Greenland, Norway) but world cruising is a possibility. But in the meantime, I do want something I can sail on Lake Ontario too.
 

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Oh wow, is the Bayfield really that slow? Ok, so everyone says she's a slug, but what does that mean in real world terms?

For example, I'm heading westbound on Lake Ontario, winds are 10 knots from the west, am I going to be moving at 3 knots on the Bayfield no matter what, just because I'm reaching to windward? Is that what everyone means by slug?

By the way, the Aloha was grabbed. Oh well. The decision is now Bayfield versus Douglas 32 and the C & C 30+'s.
Just get the Bayfield. Don't even bother looking at the C+C. At least with the Bayfield, you could always pop in to Gozzard Yachts in Goderich and have him do any serious work for you. You could also consider one of the many Niagara 35s that are floating around right now. There are some serious deals in Port Credit, TO and Pickering.
 

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For example, I'm heading westbound on Lake Ontario, winds are 10 knots from the west, am I going to be moving at 3 knots on the Bayfield no matter what, just because I'm reaching to windward? Is that what everyone means by slug?
They are fairly cumbersome in light airs. In 10 Knot winds you may find yourself only moving at 3 or 4 - depending on how bagged out your sails are, how close to the centreline of the boat your sheeting arrangement allows you to haul the sails, and how frequently you come about. Winds in the summer can be light on the Great Lakes.

In a former marina there was a Bayfield a couple of slips away from us that I never saw out of the slip. The owner kept saying that there wasn't enough wind to sail (but between you and me I don't think he knew how to hoist the sails).

On the plus side - when the wind is 20 gusting 30 you'll be much happier than a lot of other boats out there...
 

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Discussion Starter #14
They are fairly cumbersome in light airs. In 10 Knot winds you may find yourself only moving at 3 or 4 - depending on how bagged out your sails are, how close to the centreline of the boat your sheeting arrangement allows you to haul the sails, and how frequently you come about. Winds in the summer can be light on the Great Lakes.

...

On the plus side - when the wind is 20 gusting 30 you'll be much happier than a lot of other boats out there...
I was thinking about this sluggishness business today. Seems like a boat to match the speed of my thinking processes. :laugher

Actually, yeah, that's a major drawback. Though I'm attracted to the 20-30 winds, I do want to go places in a timely manner. Do you know if the 32C model (taller mast, more sail area) successfully compensates for the 32's sluggishness?
 

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PHRF ratings for some bayfields

BAYFIELD 29 219 237 234
BAYFIELD 30/32 222 237 228
BAYFIELD 32 C 240 243 240

Aloha's
ALOHA 30 141 150 144
ALOHA 30 SD 156 156 156
ALOHA 32 171 177 171
ALOHA 32 SD 183 183 183
ALOHA 34/10.4 162 177 165
ALOHA 34/10.4 SM 153 153 153

At 60 secs a mile faster for the aloha, that is a BUNCH! 20 miles equal 20 min longer minimum!2000 miles is 2000 minutes or 33 hrs! ie 1.5-2 days longer! I like sailing, but not that well!

In fact, a bleeping old shoe westsnail 32 std or tall rig is faster! granted not by much, but faster! A catalina 25 is faster........
WESTSAIL 28 268 268 267
WESTSAIL 32 195 228 213
WESTSAIL 32 SM 252 252 252

Marty
 

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Certainly the additional sail area would help but the hull shape and the condition of the sails are also big factors. The Bayfield will never be an agile boat - they are just not shaped that way.

The Bayfield has a long keel on the bottom. When you are coming about there is a lot of lateral resistance. You really have to steer the boat through the tack and it takes quite a bit longer to turn than a fin-keeled boat. The chance of getting into irons - where the boat stalls - is much greater with a long - keeled boat. It takes more effort to make them change direction, hence the "sluggish" feel that they have on the hand.

Fin keeled boats, with deeper, narrower appendages are able to almost pivot around the keel, hence they tack quickly and feel a lot more responsive to the helm.

On the plus side - the long-keeled boats track well - they are less bothered by wave action and they require less effort to keep them on a course. The fin keels require a lot more attention to stay on one bearing, they are more easily buffeted by waves.

Boats with the extremely narrow, long bulb keels need a constant hand to keep them going in a straight line.

When you are cruising this becomes a consideration if you are using an autopilot - the Bayfield is going to draw less electricity to maintain its course than a shorter keeled boat will.

If you are determined to obtain a fast cruising boat you might think about a multihull. I personally don't like them but they are often faster than monohulls and are undeniably roomy.

Looking at the areas you mention you'd like to cruise - the first thing that springs to mind is that you want a steel boat - ice can do things to a cold, brittle plastic hull. Steel is a bit more maintenance than fibreglass but it is strong and easily repaired when things happen to it.

If you do decide to stick with fibreglass you'd do well to look along the east coast of the US as well as in the Great Lakes area. If you can find a Caliber or a Sabre, an Alberg 35 or 37, Cape Dory, Little Harbor, Hinckley, Pacific Seacraft, Valiant, Island Packet or such boat you'll be in good shape for cruising.

I get the impression that you are in the process of gaining your sailing experience. The best thing you can do at this point is buy a CS22/C&C24/Catalina 22 and really learn how to sail, navigate, anchor, use a radio, conduct a MOB rescue and change a headsail in heavy weather. Get a fairly inexpensive boat, learn how to maintain and care for her and then move up.

You can be sure that the things that are important to you right now will not be so critical once you have developed a greater level of confidence and broadened your experience base.

Good Luck ! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
PHRF ratings for some bayfields

BAYFIELD 29 219 237 234
BAYFIELD 30/32 222 237 228
BAYFIELD 32 C 240 243 240

[snip]

At 60 secs a mile faster for the aloha, that is a BUNCH! 20 miles equal 20 min longer minimum!2000 miles is 2000 minutes or 33 hrs! ie 1.5-2 days longer! I like sailing, but not that well!

[snip]

Marty
I'm not intending to race the boat, and while I confess I don't understand PHRF ratings, am I right in interpreting those numbers as the Bayfield 32 being faster than the 32C? They added a taller mast to the 32 in order to improve speed, called it the 32C, yet wound up with a slower boat?
 

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When I or others for that matter post PHRF ratings as comparisons, it is not so you know the race ratings. BUT, to show as you as I believe you are seeing, is what is the faster boat per say. But yes, the lower the numbers, the faster the boat is. The first number is the nations "fastest" rating, the next the nations lowest rating and last of the three the ave for ALL regions ratings.

So the above examples I gave for miles to a given point 20 miles away or a longer crossing of say 2000 miles, those would be approx loner times to make a given distance, using the ratings as an example.

On the other hand....."IF" the Bayfield had new sails, a crack crew, new bottom paint and faired hull vs the aloha with old dacron sails, fuzz or other growth on the bottom, single handed person that did not care about sail shape alot, 3 microwaves in cabin.......the bayfield may very well cream the ALoha to the end of the race or cruise destination. The PHRF ratings will show generally speaking, which boat to be faster, assuming equal excellent to poor prep.

You could also us other ratios to choose a boat too, sail area-displacement, more sail are the faster potential, much like HP-lbs in a sprint car or equal! There is also a capsize ratio, comfort ratio, disp/wl length among others.

All of these ratings/numbers give you an idea of "how" a given boat will do in a given circumstance. I have no qualms about saying, the Bayfield would be one of the last boats I would choose for your potential useage. I personally feel there are faster, just a well built, comfortible boats for sailing in Lake O and going across the Atlantic.

Marty
 

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Discussion Starter #19
On the plus side - the long-keeled boats track well - they are less bothered by wave action and they require less effort to keep them on a course. The fin keels require a lot more attention to stay on one bearing, they are more easily buffeted by waves.

[snip]

When you are cruising this becomes a consideration if you are using an autopilot - the Bayfield is going to draw less electricity to maintain its course than a shorter keeled boat will.
I should probably have mentioned that I hope to do a lot of singlehanding, so this is a very attractive feature for me.

If you do decide to stick with fibreglass you'd do well to look along the east coast of the US as well as in the Great Lakes area. If you can find a Caliber or a Sabre, an Alberg 35 or 37, Cape Dory, Little Harbor, Hinckley, Pacific Seacraft, Valiant, Island Packet or such boat you'll be in good shape for cruising.
Yeah, many of those are outside my budget range, unfortunately, but I do have my eye on a lot of those.


I get the impression that you are in the process of gaining your sailing experience. The best thing you can do at this point is buy a CS22/C&C24/Catalina 22 and really learn how to sail, navigate, anchor, use a radio, conduct a MOB rescue and change a headsail in heavy weather. Get a fairly inexpensive boat, learn how to maintain and care for her and then move up.
Yup, you're right, I'm still gaining the experience. :) For me the problem is I want to liveaboard now, so I'm hoping to choose the boat that suits me for sailing later. I can gain my sailing experience on other boats, but I do want to be sure I have the right boat for when I do sail on my own boat. Hrm. You've given me a lot of food for thought with that analysis. The tracking is attractive, the agility is only important for me perhaps at the docks.

Meanwhile, I think if the turning radius is large for this boat compared to others then I can easily see why blt2ski's PHRF ratings show the Bayfield as being slower. Of course it's going to take such a boat longer to reach ideal speed, to tack, to gybe, to round a marker, etc. So perhaps on the longer race courses there comes a point where the Bayfield is going just as fast as anything else, it just needs longer to get to that point than anything else.

Interesting!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
When I or others for that matter post PHRF ratings as comparisons, it is not so you know the race ratings. BUT, to show as you as I believe you are seeing, is what is the faster boat per say. But yes, the lower the numbers, the faster the boat is. The first number is the nations "fastest" rating, the next the nations lowest rating and last of the three the ave for ALL regions ratings.

[snip]

All of these ratings/numbers give you an idea of "how" a given boat will do in a given circumstance. I have no qualms about saying, the Bayfield would be one of the last boats I would choose for your potential useage. I personally feel there are faster, just a well built, comfortible boats for sailing in Lake O and going across the Atlantic.

Marty
What would you recommend for liveaboarding and singlehanding on Lake Ontario for around CAD $40k? Preferably something that can eventually ocean cruise, but I don't mind later upgrading to a different boat for that.
 
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