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Re-bedding track

I will be removing the Jjb track and re-bedding on my 24, so this was great. A question on the exisitng holes:

Water has been coming through the holes (hence to need to re-bed). What is the prefered method of preping the holes? I've seen other threads about wetting them down with epoxy, then removing and filling with thickened expoxy and re-drilling. Others have suggested brilling them out wider first.

Others mention that acetone will absorb water.

What do y'all think? (The deck around the track seems sound, so ripping out and replacing all the balsa is not under consideration)

All three?

1. Drill out the holes (how larges?)
2. Dry with Acetone?
3. Fill with epoxy, then clear; Then re-fill with thinkened epoxy and re-drill?



Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
A question on the exisitng holes:

Water has been coming through the holes (hence to need to re-bed). What is the prefered method of preping the holes?
If they are wet TRY and let them dry out over a winter or more then measure them with a Moisture meter. Epoxy, penetrating epoxy and all the other snake oils out there do NOTHING to stick to wet balsa. You are better off to leave it damp and re-bed properly than to try and pot the hole with the balsa wet.




I've seen other threads about wetting them down with epoxy, then removing and filling with thickened expoxy and re-drilling. Others have suggested brilling them out wider first.
The filling with un-thickened then thickened is to allow some fine penetration and a better bond to the surrounding balsa rather than just dumping in thickened epoxy. Think of it as a bonding primer. You then thicken it and have a good base for the thickened epoxy to bond to. Dentists do a similar thing with the polymer fillings. They first bore out the tooth then apply an unthickend priming resin which penetrates into all the small pores. The thickened polymer is then added over the top of the primer/penetrating resin and the filling is then complete after some finishing.

Others mention that acetone will absorb water.
Wishful thinking that in theory sounds good. Acetone poured in between a deck only serves to melt and damage the bond between the balsa and deck skin. Acetone becomes non-fast evaporating between deck skins and actually can become resin eating & softenting. Removing water takes either excavation or many, many, many holes drilled and months of drying. Do the acetone trick on some foam cores and your really screwed.

Keep in mind that with decks that were hand laid, not infused or vacuum bagged, that there will almost ALWAYS be channeling of the moisture meaning that the water is usually more wide spread than just near the fitting as it rides the kerfs in the contour cut balsa or foam.

What do y'all think? (The deck around the track seems sound, so ripping out and replacing all the balsa is not under consideration)
Bed it properly, beveling the holes etc., to stop any more water ingress, and go sailing...

All three?

1. Drill out the holes (how larges?)
Personally, I really dislike the over-sized hole method as it breaks the continuity of the top, bottom or both skins. A captured plug is and will be a stronger deck and an over-sized hole. The over-sized hole method to me is a shortcut. I have seen them fail.

These were completely over-drilled and two of the stanchions on this boat broke the "plugs" right out of the deck. I snapped this shot of one of the chunks but this was not even one of the bad ones. There were multiple bad things done in this installation but the reality is that if it was "bored", leaving both skins intact, rather than over drilled, the deck would not have required a massively $$ repair to correct the DIY hack job. This one boat had multiple plug failures and not all were stanchions.



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2. Dry with Acetone?
If it makes you feel good you can try it but you may find you have created more trouble than good.


3. Fill with epoxy, then clear; Then re-fill with thinkened epoxy and re-drill?
If the deck is wet just re-bed and stop any further ingress. Potting wet balsa is an exercise "feelings" mostly. If it makes you feel good do it. The bond just will not be there and you will have little epoxy towers between the deck skins that are not adhered. You will see this when you finally have to excavate it.

If the soundings are good and the deck is not dripping brown goo then you'd be surprised how long a boat with wet decks can remain structurally bonded.

If you need a supply of butyl feel free to PM me.
 

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sealing around mounted wood toerail

I am refinishing the teak toerails, their attachment to the deck is fine and there are no leaks. However, the current sealant (unknown) has dried and breaks away from the teak (and deck) along the joint between the teak and the gelcoat as I scrape it. I do not intend to remove and rebed the toerail. What would you recommend I use to reform a bead along the joint between the teak and the deck?

Thanks,
 

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Got my rolls of tape, (Thanks Maine) and put them to use this weekend. I removed the fore hatch, the week before the big rains and got back to the boat to put the new hatch in...

The tape is a tad sticky, easy to work with, and I am hoping will work quite well. As my hatch was not 100% flat to the fore peak, two rear corners of the hatch about 1/8" off the deck and around the bends for almost 2"...so I cut a 1" length and attached, that followed by a 2.5" piece, a 4" piece and so on until I built up (or down - depending on how you look at it..) the wedge needed. Then I laid the two overlapping strips on the screw line and had the admiral help me gently lay the new hatch in place.

I used the end of a papermate ink pen to cut screw holes, and use small drill bits as allignment pins to drop the new hatch on. Removed the first drill bit, and replaced with a screw, as with the other 4. The started the remaining screws. Went below to make sure that all was well. So far so good.

New hatch is in place, warming up nicely, and I will take a final turn on the screws later this afternoon.

Lessons learned...using the suggested hardware was best - called for flathead #8 screws, PO used #10 pan head sheet metal screws which stuck up in to the seal area.....MORE tape is better than less tape...I did have one small gap...that I was able to pull/stretch the butyl tape and slide it in as I set the hatch - would have been better to build up the corners more the first go round, as once placed the tape is quite sticky..

Will see how well it has sealed later in the season when the rains come again.

All the best.
 

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Telstar 28
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If the underlying surface isn't flat for the hatch to sit on, you'd be better off building it up with thickened epoxy or fiberglass to the proper height than using butyl to fill the gap.

Got my rolls of tape, (Thanks Maine) and put them to use this weekend. I removed the fore hatch, the week before the big rains and got back to the boat to put the new hatch in...

The tape is a tad sticky, easy to work with, and I am hoping will work quite well. As my hatch was not 100% flat to the fore peak, two rear corners of the hatch about 1/8" off the deck and around the bends for almost 2"...so I cut a 1" length and attached, that followed by a 2.5" piece, a 4" piece and so on until I built up (or down - depending on how you look at it..) the wedge needed. Then I laid the two overlapping strips on the screw line and had the admiral help me gently lay the new hatch in place.

I used the end of a papermate ink pen to cut screw holes, and use small drill bits as allignment pins to drop the new hatch on. Removed the first drill bit, and replaced with a screw, as with the other 4. The started the remaining screws. Went below to make sure that all was well. So far so good.

New hatch is in place, warming up nicely, and I will take a final turn on the screws later this afternoon.

Lessons learned...using the suggested hardware was best - called for flathead #8 screws, PO used #10 pan head sheet metal screws which stuck up in to the seal area.....MORE tape is better than less tape...I did have one small gap...that I was able to pull/stretch the butyl tape and slide it in as I set the hatch - would have been better to build up the corners more the first go round, as once placed the tape is quite sticky..

Will see how well it has sealed later in the season when the rains come again.

All the best.
 

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Just bedded a grab rail with Butyl. It's cheap, easy to work with (much easier than caulk IMO). My question is; why doesn't anybody seem to know about it (in California anyway)? Chandleries and even a shipwright I asked drew a blank. It doesn't seem to be available in California. One Chandlery who knew what it was can't get it anymore. I bought it from an out of state RV supply on the Web. Is it toxic to make or handle? Seems pretty benign to me! I got two rolls that will last me a long long time for about $20 including shipping (the stuff is heavy!). Probably should have ordered one!
 

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No, it's not toxic - unless you eat it anyway. Not specifically "marine" though and doesn't have the international rep like Sikaflex or 3M products. And apparently no advertising. But Canadian Sailcraft boats (I have a CS27) used it for all deck hardware as well as the hull/deck joint. I have no leaks from any original hardware attachments. I also just removed my forward hatch to replace it because it was basically falling apart and not worth the rebuild. It leaked between the acrylic and the frame but the frame/deck attachment with butyl was leak free - after 33 years. The butyl was still flexible as well because it doesn't ever dry out or harden. Needless to say the new hatch will be butyl sealed as well. I'm sure other builders have used butyl as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
I'm sure other builders have used butyl as well.
Sabre did too. It is hard to find because even the glazing industry has moved towards adhesive sealants. Butyl is more labor intensive to do it right, hence the move buy builders away from it. The rolls also collect factory dust if not kept clean something they don't have to worry about with gun injected goop..

It took me months to find the "right stuff" that the builders used to use because the glazing and RV industries are now using a slightly different material, still butyl but not the same consistency...
 

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It took me months to find the "right stuff" that the builders used to use because the glazing and RV industries are now using a slightly different material, still butyl but not the same consistency...
MS - can you give us a source for the butyl you are using? I purchased a roll from an online RV dealer about a year ago and after lots of rebedding projects I'm almost out and about to place another order.
 

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It took me months to find the "right stuff" that the builders used to use because the glazing and RV industries are now using a slightly different material, still butyl but not the same consistency...
Well crap!

It took a bit to get mine.

Now I don't know. It is grey. It came from a RV place in Tampa - world famous Lazy Days.;) , Well, the store next to it anyway.
 

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MS - can you give us a source for the butyl you are using? I purchased a roll from an online RV dealer about a year ago and after lots of rebedding projects I'm almost out and about to place another order.
You can get it directly from MS!:)

SailboatOwners.com - Marketplace - Category - For sale - Bed-It - Butyl Bedding Tape

Disclaimer: No financial interest in MS... but grateful for all that he's done for the community.

[EDIT:] I just checked the link above and could not find the advertisement that I originally referenced. I did some poking around and found this from Maine_Sail;
1-27-2011

Guys,

I will be away on business from Jan 28th through about April 25th. During that time I will not be able to ship butyl tape.

I will resume shipping the butyl when I get back. The tape I sell is not readily available but there are some products out there that can work OK. If you need it fast you might need to buy another type of butyl tape from another an on-line source. As always use gray and not black!!
This may explain why he has been so quiet lately...
 

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Deck Hardware using Butyl Tape

Maine Sail,
In the slides it looks as if the cleat was aluminum using stainless steel bolts. Will the Butyl provide proper isolation between the two materials to prevent corrosion?
Thanks for your presentation on Butyl Tape
 

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