[kjango]

Couple weeks ago I had a racing sailor on my boat . We were going along pretty good , making way nicely , & I was on the tiller drinking coffee admiring the water going by when he started tweaking everything. Five minutes later the boat is on it ear , the mast is shaking , my coffee is on the deck of the cockpit spilled , & the rig is about blow up . So......I came up on the wind higher as the boat was wanting to round up anyway til everything eased . He then turned to me & said ,"You weren't supposed to change course ." I didn't want to make a big deal out of it . He's a nice guy & I was trying to be a nice guy when I asked him along as his boat was out of service so I laughed it off & pointed out on my boat I often just change course as my mood suits me . The thing is this . I've seen this movie a few times . First off , I like to race as well , but having said that......not EVERY sail is a race . But more often then not when I've had racers on my boat it's some version of what I just described. Why is it that often when racers are aboard they feel comfortable sailing your boat their way & then take umbrage when you point that out to them . More often then not what comes next is a critique of my sailing from them which doesn't really smooth things over for me . I have a few miles under my keel & I choose to sail the way I sail as my preference & on my boat my right . This is actually the first time I haven't ended up being the bad guy cause I just kind of shrugged it off like I described . What I think is reasonable is that when on someone else's boat to follow that person's lead . It's not a huge issue as I mostly sail alone , but it is a recurring one & causes me to wonder at their mindset. Input ???

 

[night0wl]

Simple fix, tell racers the bot is a cruiser and not a racer

 

[PorFin]

Yeah, I think pre-sail discussions about what the sail is going to be, who's gonna do what, and most importantly who's in charge, would go a long way towards keeping everyone on the same page.

If some folks can't manage that, then they shouldn't get a second invite.

 

[Siamese]

If he did that on my boat, I'd just say, nicely, "relax, you're on a cruiser today. Let's ease those sails".

If he doesn't understand, without being told, that the boat owner is the captain, with all that implies, that's his problem, but it's going to be done my way.

There's no way I'd go on another person's boat and sail it any other way than how the skipper wants it sailed. That'd be rude.

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

When you are a guest on someone elses boat you are not the captain. You are a guest. Sit there and enjoy it. Be helpful but that doesnt include tweaking sails.... Or telling your host how to sail, or that his rig is chafed, or the varnish needs doing....

Apart from that racing people can be a weird breed. Try talking about something thats not racing and they look at you dumbfounded.

Glad I stopped racing!

 

[ajoliver]

Five minutes later the boat is on it ear , the mast is shaking , my coffee is on the deck of the cockpit spilled , & the rig is about blow up . So......I came up on the wind higher
Hmmm, if he had you over-trimmed, and then you headed up, you would have been luffing vigorously, right?
I sort of have my doubts about both of you - but mostly the rude crew guy.

 

[Sailormon6]

It sounds to me like you need to take command of your boat. Your crew can't read your mind. If you want to bear away from closehauled onto a gentler course, say so. Tell your crew to ease the sheets as you bear off the wind. He's there to help you sail the boat. If you don't tell him how you want him to trim the sails, then he has to guess. When he guesses wrong, you complain because he misread your wishes. Communicate. If you want him to follow your lead, you have to lead.

Good sail trim doesn't make a boat heel excessively, or make the mast shake, or make the rig "blow up." Good, sail trim helps the boat sail efficiently and keeps the boat on it's feet. Those behaviors by the boat would have been the result of an increase in wind velocity. That isn't the fault of your crew. If the wind velocity increases to the point that the boat is heeling excessively, then it's time to reduce sail area. That's a decision that should be made by the skipper, not by the crew. Take command. If the mast shakes, that's a sign that it is probably dangerously out of tune. That isn't the fault of your crew.

 

[PaulinVictoria]

Bugs me when people don't bother to trim sails properly, racing or not. I confess, I am a tweaker.

 

[kjango]

When my boat is over powered & trying to round up if you let her have her head there a fine line just before sails lufting & you can yard her up just short of that & she eases up stands a little taller & sails quite well but you have to pay close attention to not pinch any further & it is a fine line . I suspect that behavior is not unique to my boat. So doubt away but there it is .

 

[kjango]

lmao.....I invite someone to sail & I'm am at fault for not being a leader . I don't go sailing to be a leader nor do I feel the obligation to lead . I also see that some posts reflect what I described in my original post.....that is my sailing ability is called into question or the condition of my boat.......interesting to me as she sails just fine til meddled with.......but lets not critique the person who "tweaked" her into that behavior . But having said that those critical posts are enlightening & reveal a presumption on the part of some .

 

[PaulinVictoria]

I should clarify, I do not tweak on other people's boats unless invited to tweak. I just sit there and quietly stew on it

 

[kjango]

What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .

 

[blowinstink]

What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .

Nonono. I think that is totally the wrong lesson KJ! Justremember that when you get a tweeker aboard, they often need a "hey, I like the boat in a groove like this . . . we can get more out of her but she stops being fun to sail". Afterall, that is what you are describing right? The truth will set you free Bro!

Long time no see chatter!!!

 

[SimonV]

From what you have said, you can obviously see why some cruisers get 10 plus years out of a set of sails and racers get a lot less.

 

[Jaramaz]

What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .

No, sailing with others is just fun.

Your extent of leadership is just fine. Most do not want more.

You just got an entusiastic crew onboard. He has to learn, that's all.

Bring some beers next time. That use to relax most people.

/J

 

[kjango]

Ya know....I do sail sometimes with this old guy that has been racing boats for 33 years. He a tweaker........but the guy is an awesome sailor......has incredible boat skills . hasn't spilt my coffee yet & for whatever reason his 4 minute cycle of endless tweaking hasn't annoyed me & I have also learned a lot about sail trim from him . Never has unduly strained my boat or my patience .

 

[SHNOOL]

Ok, well I race, but I don't LIVE to race. That being said everyone knows I'm a tweaker. It's my job. If you invite ME to crew for you, I am going to crew. As crew, I DO follow your lead! Cracked off from close haul, I'm going to ease sheets, and get you best trim (it's my job). Generally I split the duties with the skipper, however, if genoa and mainsheet are within my reach, I let the skipper steer a course and I set trim to match.

Every good racer should know that sailing on your ear isn't efficient. It CAN be fun, and I sometimes do it on my own boat for the helluva it, but that's another story.

I suppose though if someone invited me along as a passenger, I might respectfully decline. There are a few sailors I know, that I'd be comfortable being a passenger on (as they are bigger nut-nicks than I am about tweaking)...

I don't ever presume to know someone's boat better than them, but I expect my duties as "crew" to involve trim, foredeck work, running up halyards, what have you. In my opinion that's what I was asked... The skipper knows me, and wants an extra hand for a good sail with less work for us both.

On the opposite end of this spectrum... I invite people on my boat in 2 capacities... as CREW, and as Passengers. I make it clear which category they fit in. If I don't know the person, and I invite them as Crew, I assess their knowledge, and assign them a "position" and duty. If they do it better than myself, or differently I go over what I am expecting, and how to handle the duty.. example dumping a sheet when I ask, or sheet/trim commands. What my close haul settings are for the boat (example 3-6 inches off the spreader).

If you board as a passenger, you merely need to move locations when I ask (Its a small boat, you are part of the ballast, just how it is)... otherwise you are there to soak it up... I'll even serve drinks and food!

By the way as passengers, I generally provide a period where the passengers get to take the helm. Then I become "Monkey in Chief." I do all the legwork, and tweaking while they steer the course of their choosing. This becomes entertainment for them (especially if they like to see a crazy man jumping all around the boat), but a lot of fun for me, its when I get to spend an ample amount of time figuring out best trim for a given point of sail.

If a racer's boat is out of commission, and they are invited to sail with someone, I suspect they generally think it's in a crew capacity. When I was boatless (between the sale of my old boat, and the purchase of my new boat), I got countless offers to sail from other members of my club (great people by the way).. I got to sail on some of our fastest boats, and some of our coolest boats (from hard core race boats to classic cat boats)... I wish I could have crewed on them all! Because each boat is a learning experience. But they all wanted my own take on what makes the boats go faster.

I cruise, I day sail, and I race, I doubt that I'd ever be happy setting trim without at least TRYING to optimize for best speed. Also I doubt sincerely racers go through sails faster than cruisers (if one looks at sailed miles)... cruisers just hang on to their blown out sails longer. I'd argue flogging sails on a race boat is like fingernails on a chalkboard to them, and money being burned.

 

[Ajax_MD]

What I'm sort of taking away from this is I should mostly continue sailing alone . I have poor people skills & feel more at ease sailing by myself anyway . When I do sail with folks I pretty much limit "leading" to safety information like location of flotation devices & fire extinguishers . He's a nice guy & I'm sure he meant no harm .

Your guest may crew on boats that race, but that doesn't mean that he knows what he's doing. It sounds like he grossly over-trimmed for your point of sail. He's one of those guys that thinks being heeled 40 degrees and stalling the rudder is fast.

He's a guest, and he shouldn't have trimmed anything without asking you first.
I race, I like to tweak, but when I'm a guest, I always ask "Do you mind if I try something?" I sure as hell don't criticize my host for changing course.

Your people skills are fine, mate. It's your guest that needs an adjustment.

 

[Don L]

Just reading this thread you can see the problem. Cruisers what to sail "well" and enjoy the trip and racers just want to see how hard they can push the boat, even on the internet. Just read the posts here to prove it.

But it doesn't have to be a racer, sometimes another cruiser will be just as bad. Had one a few years ago who brought his work assistant along (I had said it was OK). At the pre-sail brief I said I planned to sail mellow, but later wind the wind started I put in a reef and got a passive aggressive comment about it (we were still doing 7 knots). That person hasn't been back on the boat.

 

[outbound]

In recent months have had some interesting interactions.
Day sailed some with wife's cousin. She is accomplished j boat racer. Been all over the world doing it. Put her at the helm. She sat down to leeward staring at the slot. She was great fun except she had no concept we weren't on a race course so had to basically stand watch and remind her what was coming up to windward.
In November had 2 crew Hampton Va. to North Sound BVI. One was a racer and a bit of a rock star. No clew initially on electronics or weather or water conservation or basic issues of a transit but by his 3rd watch totally tuned to all the offshore issues. Possibly one of the best crew I have ever had. Kept the boat moving, fearless and never bitched. We would fool some with trim and I did learn some from him and I hope the contrapositive.
Other crew said he had earned a living for decades moving boats. Total ass. "I like a lot of vang". When I followed his watch would retrim and pick up 1/10 to 1/2 a knot .
Thing is when you get on someone else's boat it's their boat,their show. You go with the flow. There is only one captain on a boat.