[guitarguy56]

The risk is too small...?

We've heard this before... people who don't insure property, vehicles, homes, boats, aircraft, etc. UNTIL that day comes when the home burns down, the alcohol stove burns the boat and marina down, the car gets into a wreck and maims or even kills passengers... what then? Ask for public help, raise everyone's insurance premiums because some selfish person didn't insure or insure properly to avoid costly mistakes not only for them but the injured in their wake.

If you want to self insure or not have insurance then please avoid contact with my boat, others boats in the anchorages or moorings... of course you can't slip your boat without proper insurance.

Good luck when the worst happens and lawsuits come your way. There are some lawyers on this forum... seek advice!

 

[cdy]

If you read my postings its in regard to hull coverage - not liability insurance, everyone can make their own financial calculations if it makes $ sense to have hull coverage. I would think that the cost of the survey plus the annual premiums might not make financial sense for a boat valued $10K or less - which nowadays includes lots of old classic plastic boats.

 

[TakeFive]

If you read my postings its in regard to hull coverage - not liability insurance, everyone can make their own financial calculations if it makes $ sense to have hull coverage. I would think that the cost of the survey plus the annual premiums might not make financial sense for a boat valued $10K or less - which nowadays includes lots of old classic plastic boats.

Two of my three boats are covered by policies from the same company that covers my home. They are separate boat policies, specific to the boats. Premium is $50, no survey required. They also include replacement value, only because the minimum premium is $50, so liability-only would not save me any money.

So I think that your argument that the boat is worth too little to make it worth getting any insurance is a weak one. If you can't afford $50 a year, boating is not the right hobby for you.

 

[Skipper Jer]

Now I'm wondering what the difference in cost would be between liability only and full coverage. We can afford the lost of the boat but, as I said before, not fuel fines and salvage. Right now the boat is parked in the driveway, yea Nor'sea 27, and is not insured. When we re-insure I'll have them quote liability only and full coverage. Got to wonder what a few extra millions in liability coverage would cost.

 

[guitarguy56]

Now I'm wondering what the difference in cost would be between liability only and full coverage. We can afford the lost of the boat but, as I said before, not fuel fines and salvage. Right now the boat is parked in the driveway, yea Nor'sea 27, and is not insured. When we re-insure I'll have them quote liability only and full coverage. Got to wonder what a few extra millions in liability coverage would cost.

Good question on the liability and what the extra millions in umbrella would cost you... The extra cost for umbrella coverage is when you reach the maximum liability coverage of your regular insurance then the cost to cover per umbrella kicks in... normally this is not a lot of money... for us it's an extra ~$550/yr coverage above and beyond what we pay for normal coverage... while some may bulk at the cost it covers the homes, cars, and the boat.

I won't state the umbrella coverage amount but we know we are safe from large lawsuits which for those that have significant property you might want to keep... other way is to incorporate and list the boat/home/aircraft/etc. as an asset and protect it this way.

I'm not an insurance broker so any advice seek the help of your insurance broker or legal counselor, as one that has been in these types of litigation all I can offer is what I've learned through the process and eye opening info regarding what could have been.

 

[guitarguy56]

Two of my three boats are covered by policies from the same company that covers my home. They are separate boat policies, specific to the boats. Premium is $50, no survey required. They also include replacement value, only because the minimum premium is $50, so liability-only would not save me any money.

So I think that your argument that the boat is worth too little to make it worth getting any insurance is a weak one. If you can't afford $50 a year, boating is not the right hobby for you.

Nice boats... I'm in Ridley Park right now... I take my guitar to Gov. Printz Park to play while I'm here doing a little time at Boeing IDS.

I see your marina West End Boat Club or are you at Riverside Yacht Club?

 

[Skipper Jer]

And this is why you should have millions in liability insurance. :eek

Action starts around 1:40

Video: Cruise ship crashes into Ketchikan dock - Alaska Dispatch News

 

[TQA]

For those thinking about cruising without any insurance remember most marinas and boatyards will insist on seeing proof of insurance [ liability ] when you check in.

Some countries now insist on seeing proof of insurance when you check in.

 

[cdy]

Not sure where you can get boat insurance for $50/year in Florida - that's a pipedream - and my discussion is not about if you can afford hull coverage - just if it makes financial sense to have it on an older boat - if you have a $10,000 boat ( that's paid for) and to insure it - you have to have a survey - probably $500 - plus yearly premiums -that would cover sailing in the Caribbean - probably $500 /year minimum, that seems a stiff price to pay to insure $10,000 investment
Really no different from carrying collision on a car - does it makes sense to pay extra to cover an older inexpensive car?

Again my thoughts on the boat is to have a smaller less expensive older cruiser , that I would not be restricted by insurance to where I can sail and when.

 

[guitarguy56]

And this is why you should have millions in liability insurance. :eek

Action starts around 1:40

Video: Cruise ship crashes into Ketchikan dock - Alaska Dispatch News

More like something in the order of these yachts burning at the slips:

Fire rips through boat at Stock Island marina, smoke fills the Key West sky | News | KeysNet

Sailboat catches fire at Fort Myers Yacht Basin | WINK NEWS

Or maybe low liability limits (to save $$$) is going to save the boats owners here from huge lawsuits?

4 dead in boating accident off Dinner Key Marina

This is fun... wonder if the limits of their liability were met or exceeded?

Sailboat sinks after collision 080714

Fun... fun... fun... at the insurance office and or the courts... you pick!

 

[MikeOReilly]

The risk is too small...?

We've heard this before... people who don't insure property, vehicles, homes, boats, aircraft, etc. UNTIL that day comes when the home burns down, the alcohol stove burns the boat and marina down, the car gets into a wreck and maims or even kills passengers... what then? Ask for public help, raise everyone's insurance premiums because some selfish person didn't insure or insure properly to avoid costly mistakes not only for them but the injured in their wake.

I see you fail to understand my post, or perhaps risk assessment eludes you? Life is a risk. Everything we do comes with some risk. By your calculus you should have meteor impact insurance. But you don't b/c you think the risk is too low.

If you actually looked at the stats (which are all online, publicly available) you would see the real risk to most sailors/cruisers is beyond miniscule. For most activities, it is a rounding error. And yes, that includes the actual risk of an alcohol stove (or any fuel) destroying your boat.

You can pull out as many individual examples you want, that doesn't change the actual facts. If you truly can't live with this level of risk, then how in the world do you do truly risky things like drive, walk down a city street or eat most prepared foods? These carry far greater risk than most activities cruisers undertake.

If you can live with no risk, then by all means, hand your money to the insurance companies. Unless money is no issue for you and you can maximize everything, then I personally would rather see you invest it in better anchoring gear. I'd certainly feel safer when you anchor close to me. But that's up to you.

 

[MikeOReilly]

And what is the magic number for liability nirvana? Most policies are $2M. What happens when your boat causes $3M damage? If all you carry is $2M then you are essentially "self-insured" for anything more than that.

Many things "could" happen. That doesn't mean they "will" happen. That's what risk assessment is all about. But the insurance companies sell fear and only focus on what "could" happen.

Wait! Do you work for an insurance company guitarguy56? :laugh

 

[TakeFive]

And what is the magic number for liability nirvana? Most policies are $2M. What happens when your boat causes $3M damage? If all you carry is $2M then you are essentially "self-insured" for anything more than that.

That's not an argument for $0 insurance.

Even in the highly unusual example that you cite, your liability policy gets you a team of lawyers representing the insurance company, doing all the negotiating to minimize the award while you can go on with your life. You're not just buying peace of mind. You're buying the ability to continue to do normal things, like earn a paycheck, without destroying the rest of your life defending yourself. And that is important, because a distraction like defending a million-dollar lawsuit on your own can disrupt your life and create stress in ways that could lead to loss of job, divorce, and other bad things. To many of us, it's worth the premium to be able to pick of the phone to your insurance company and say, "This is what happened. Please take care of it."

By the way, there really is no such thing as "self insurance" for individuals. Large corporations with vast resources and a huge pool to spread the risk may self-insure for many liabilities, including employees' medical coverage, but if you're an individual you can't self-insure because you don't have the assets to cover the risk. Multi-millionaires may have the assets to self-insure, but I'll bet you anything that they're the first ones to protect their assets with insurance, for the reasons that I explained above.

 

[guitarguy56]

And what is the magic number for liability nirvana? Most policies are $2M. What happens when your boat causes $3M damage? If all you carry is $2M then you are essentially "self-insured" for anything more than that.

Many things "could" happen. That doesn't mean they "will" happen. That's what risk assessment is all about. But the insurance companies sell fear and only focus on what "could" happen.

Wait! Do you work for an insurance company guitarguy56? :laugh

I believe you know the line of work I do by now... never been hidden.

Yes many things 'could happen' and DO happen... just because it has not happened to you does not infer you should not view the risks.

Insurance companies do not sell the 'fear'... they sell the policy... it is up to YOU to know the fear and the risk... then take the action to mitigate that fear! Obviously many decide the risk is too low till that accident or tragedy strikes and then: 'I should have, wish I had, damn it for not... you fill in the blank "____________ " as that is exactly what many cry out in the face of what tragedy just happened!

In reality it is economics really that many force themselves not to buy insurance or be underinsured and not what you state it to be Mike.

Do what you wish... I'm not selling life, accident, auto or what ever insurance policies ... I BUY that insurance policy and know what my risk and protections are and it seems many others have that same assessment.

 

[MikeOReilly]

That's not an argument for $0 insurance.

Even in the highly unusual example that you cite,

But my point is that ANY claim is highly unusual. Just look at the stats. So no, this doesn't mean you should carry no insurance. It just means you shouldn't be irrationally scared into having to spend money on something that is very likely a waste your limited cash.

In the case where resources ($$) are limited, most sailors/cruisers would be better off spending this money on better equipment, on improved maintenance, and enhancing skills. THIS would make you, and everyone around you, safer.

I'm not saying insurance doesn't have a place, or a role. I just chafe against this fear-based, moralistic line that some spout equating people who chose go without insurance as somehow bad or selfish.

 

[guitarguy56]

Yes... the family who left Mexico just recently with the baby who had to be recused by the coast guard because they lost power and/or steering was disabled 500 miles off the California coast... Yes... NO insurance on the boat... risky... YOU BET... to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars for the rescue... who pays this.. the invisible insurance policy or we the tax payers or is this family on the hook all their lives paying this off with that limited self funded risk fund many speak of here?

 

[MikeOReilly]

Yes... the family who left Mexico just recently with the baby who had to be recused by the coast guard because they lost power and/or steering was disabled 500 miles off the California coast... Yes... NO insurance on the boat... risky... YOU BET... to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars for the rescue... who pays this.. the invisible insurance policy or we the tax payers or is this family on the hook all their lives paying this off with that limited self funded risk fund many speak of here?

As far as I know, USCG does not charge for rescuing people ... unless things have changed. So yes, taxpayers pay for this service. It's part of being a citizen.

But once again, you keep raising individual cases. How many people sailed across the Pacific that year without a problem? Hundreds, perhaps thousands? Why not cite those, instead of the rare individual events you keep pointing to? You say you're not basing your argument on fear, yet all your examples do just that.

Once again, why don't you have meteor impact insurance?

 

[pdqaltair]

no. liability covers the damage others property but not to the environment if the boat sinks and you don't pay someone to float it and cleanup the spill you will be fined and the government agency will get their money, the environmental coverage is separate from liability coverage

Thanks, never thought about it, always had full coverage on boats with engines.

Actually, most boats that sink at dock do not spill. It depends on the vent design and how deep the slip is.

 

[cdy]

But I wonder if you get hull insurance on an older classic from the 60's or 70's that has a value less than $20K
Liability probably - but hull coverage?

 

[guitarguy56]

Yes Mike... Our Coast Guard rescues are thankfully paid by taxpayers but it does not mean in certain circumstances the rescuees may have to foot some of the cost. The problem here is that the Coast Guard has no way to issue the cost of rescue based on their words.

Total cost to taxpayers: $663,000 and probably more hidden costs not shown on this tally... Now suppose you had to pay for this rescue if the Coast Guard did not do this sort of thing and must be paid by your insurance... you think that 'self funded' fund you have would take care of this?

Cost for sailing family rescue: $663,000 | SanDiegoUnionTribune.com

Do what you wish and those that have your way of thinking... doesn't hurt me or my pocketbook... but many who choose to make their homes on the boat and make it the only home are in for a surprise when the home sinks and are left with nothing to show for it but memories and hopefully a hefty environmental spill fine and clean up. My insurance covers over a million dollars in spill clean up and is a separate rider on the policy.

I'm sure there is a meteor insurance policy somewhere I'll have to locate it!

Couldn't help posting Mike:

http://www.iii.org/insuranceindustryblog/?p=3162

AIR Worldwide reports that in many countries with developed insurance markets, a comprehensive multi-peril insurance policy generally will cover all risks that are not specifically excluded, meaning that meteorite damage would generally be covered:

The dwelling portion of the homeowner policy is very broad and if damage from falling objects is not listed in the exclusions, it is generally covered.�

The Insurance Information Institute (I.I.I.) also reminds us that while the likelihood of actually getting struck by a satellite, a meteor or an asteroid is extremely rare, the good news is that if one of these falling objects does hit you, your home or car or place of business, the resulting damage would be covered by insurance:

Not so if you have NO INSURANCE!