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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Had a great weekend at the Toronto boat show. Certainly lots of big fancy boats to step aboard and dream about. More importantly as a newer boat owner, I got to meet lots of local businesses in the industry and start planning ahead for future projects. Like any good boat-related event, I also got to thoroughly empty my bank account...

I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.

After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.

I'm being given the option of either returning the wire for a full refund or paying an additional cost to exchange it for newer wire if they are able to source it. Complicating this, is a 4 hour return trip to the store or paying shipping charges. Given I got a great price on the wire, should I just go ahead and stop fretting the details?

Thanks for your help!
 

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Everything you ever wanted to know about boat cable :

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/006/ul.1426.1986.pdf

Note that it does refer to an SAE standard for 50V boat cable, SAEJ1127.

So it IS possible that what you have is boat cable. See page 17 of the standard. It may be labelled with the SAE three letter code, and the temperature rating.

What does the label say, exactly?
 

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Sounds like you got ripped off. If SAE indicates it is acceptable to auto manufacturers ... um ... that's setting the bar desperately low. I cannot think of any product with lower standards and specs than an automobile.
 

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Had a great weekend at the Toronto boat show. Certainly lots of big fancy boats to step aboard and dream about. More importantly as a newer boat owner, I got to meet lots of local businesses in the industry and start planning ahead for future projects. Like any good boat-related event, I also got to thoroughly empty my bank account...

I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.

After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.

I'm being given the option of either returning the wire for a full refund or paying an additional cost to exchange it for newer wire if they are able to source it. Complicating this, is a 4 hour return trip to the store or paying shipping charges. Given I got a great price on the wire, should I just go ahead and stop fretting the details?

Thanks for your help!
#1 You are being lied to. 105C UL Marine wire has been around in excess of 25 years. Hard to get my arse.

#2 Ancor does not make wire, they brand wire...

Return it, the guy seems a bit snakey.. If you paid for 105C BC5W2 UL1426 wire that is what you should get.
 

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Exactly what Maine sail says, and also you may be using this for only 12V applications, cannot be used for any 120v or 240v wiring on your boat. Better to stick with 105c rated conductors as will be good also if you run thru engine compartment.
In the end best to have 105c-600v rated wiring.....
 

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Yep... as Mainesail and others have suggested you got ripped off... simple online search reveals:

GPT Automotive Hook Up Wire

GPT Wire
Volts: 50V
Temperature: 80ºC

GPT Wire Insulation
Polyvinylchloride Insulation

GPT Wire Conductor
Stranded Bare Copper

GPT Wire Applications

For use in general circuit wiring according to SAE J-1128. It is also used in wiring harnesses in passenger cars and light trucks, agricultural tractors, construction, locomotive and off-the-road vehicles. Intended for use at 50 volts or less in surface vehicle electrical systems.
 

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I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.

After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.
The retailer is feeding you a pack of lies. I'm based Toronto and fully rewired my boat 15 years ago with all marine Ancor wire 105c rated. Its in every real chandlery very easy to find!. Sounds like the retailer was trying to dump cheap wire at premium prices. Pending the outcome you should let us know who they are so we can avoid them

Also when you eventually go to sell a good surveyor will notice that you used incorrect wire and should note it in their report as an item to remedy (I.E. lower selling price)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the quick replies. I had a suspicion this would be the consensus. Interestingly, a search on the address found on some of the packaging for "C.S. wire and cable" seems to historically be associated with Marinco/Ancor but a quick call to them confirms that they have no information about the wire I have in hand.

Drats. Looks like I'm going to have to take a road trip down for a refund. Although I've never shopped with this store before, I was really hoping to establish a good relationship with them, as they came highly recommended to me as a local supplier of general marine goods but also specific original parts/replacements for my boat. In hindsight, although they genuinely came across as very nice and honest folks at the show, i have a hard time believing they genuinely mistook this old (?ancient) wiring as equivalent to what they are advertising.

In any event, if anyone else in the Toronto area is/was looking into a great deal on Ancor marine wire, buyer beware and please feel free to PM me so I can give you the details of my transaction.

Thank you again for everyone's help.
 

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Something that can explain it all:

SAE wire gauges and AWG wire gauges (which Ancor usually uses) are NOT THE SAME. An SAE wire size is normally 1-2 sizes under the corresponding AWG size, as I recall, so if you order AWG-10 wire, and you get "SAE-10" you've really gotten AWG-14, a very much smaller, thinner, CHEAPER wire.

The merchant is basically paying by the pound for copper, and when they deliver a size or two lighter? Right, they have saved lots of money. AND CHEATED YOU.

This could be actionable fraud (mail fraud, wire fraud, etc.) in the US. It would also be delivering non-conforming goods, which would both release you from any obligation to accept them.

Could be some sort of relabeling mix-up, sure. But CHECK THE WIRE on a gauge (or use a wire stripper, see if it strips at the right size) and if you were sent non-confirming goods, tell the vendor you're on to the game. They can send a pre-paid pickup slip, or they can explain it to the fraud investigators.

There's just too much of this ***t going on. It IS simply criminal, and we all need to roll up our sleeves and pitch in to stop it. If you used a credit card, non-conforming goods is a perfect reason to call the card company and reject the charges.
 

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First off, I would forward Maine Sail's answer to this person.
Next I would insist that this person pay the return shipping. I doubt the boat show organizers would take too kindly to one of their booth holders blatantly ripping off customers, and you might want to point this out to the guy, in case he has intentions of getting another booth at a boat show.
I certainly would not just let him get away with this sort of rip off.
 

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I think I know the vendor, and i won't do business with them, simply because they have gone out of their way to NOT earn my business. Condescension, disdain and rudeness seem to be ingrained in the corporate culture because every person i have ever dealt with at their booth has made me walk away empty handed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Bljones, Capta, Hellosailor and others:

Thanks for the support. It's really reassuring to hear from knowledgeable folks that I'm not going crazy or being super finicky. Although I'm a bit frustrated, I'm not quite ready to flame this local business and throw them under the bus just yet. I'm still waiting to see how this all plays out and will be sure to update this thread at that time.

Again, for the sake of helping others, please PM me if you wish to know the details and I will get back to you.

cheers,
Novic
 

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If they said it was "marine grade" then I would return it and demand they ship the correct grade wire, at no cost to you, or return your money, and send a pick up for the wrong goods. If they don't offer to send FedEx (or some other shipper) to come pick it up then ask that they refund your money (call credit card company and file a complaint as well, as you have a limited time to do this) and allow you to keep the wire. Under no circumstances would I drive it there unless they are reimbursing you for your mileage. This is not "old" wire, just simply the "wrong" wire, I believe this just standard automotive wiring. As Hellosailor has mentioned it is gauged differently, so not only is it the wrong temperature rating it is not the correct gauge.
 

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Something that can explain it all:

SAE wire gauges and AWG wire gauges (which Ancor usually uses) are NOT THE SAME. An SAE wire size is normally 1-2 sizes under the corresponding AWG size, as I recall, so if you order AWG-10 wire, and you get "SAE-10" you've really gotten AWG-14, a very much smaller, thinner, CHEAPER wire.

The merchant is basically paying by the pound for copper, and when they deliver a size or two lighter? Right, they have saved lots of money. AND CHEATED YOU.

This could be actionable fraud (mail fraud, wire fraud, etc.) in the US. It would also be delivering non-conforming goods, which would both release you from any obligation to accept them.

Could be some sort of relabeling mix-up, sure. But CHECK THE WIRE on a gauge (or use a wire stripper, see if it strips at the right size) and if you were sent non-confirming goods, tell the vendor you're on to the game. They can send a pre-paid pickup slip, or they can explain it to the fraud investigators.

There's just too much of this ***t going on. It IS simply criminal, and we all need to roll up our sleeves and pitch in to stop it. If you used a credit card, non-conforming goods is a perfect reason to call the card company and reject the charges.
A highly useful post! I did not know that SAE gauges are different from AWG gauges. Thank you for pointing this out!

And I agree with your outrage. This could have easily happened to me (see previous sentence) and it is pure and simple fraud. I don't believe for a second that this vendor did not know exactly what he/she/it was selling (see the bogus claim "105deg cable just came out"), and they are counting on the relative ignorance of buyers, like yours truly.

Throw the book at'em!
 

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Bljones, Capta, Hellosailor and others:

Thanks for the support. It's really reassuring to hear from knowledgeable folks that I'm not going crazy or being super finicky. Although I'm a bit frustrated, I'm not quite ready to flame this local business and throw them under the bus just yet. I'm still waiting to see how this all plays out and will be sure to update this thread at that time.

Again, for the sake of helping others, please PM me if you wish to know the details and I will get back to you.

cheers,
Novic
If you don't throw an obvious fraudster under the bus, they will make continue to make money with people that are less cautious than you are.
 

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If you don't throw an obvious fraudster under the bus, they will make continue to make money with people that are less cautious than you are.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think the company needs to have a chance to show if they will help him or not. Obviously they first started with a brush off technique, but let him get the correct wire or money back before blasting. If he blasts the companies name publicly it may make it harder to get his situation settled.
 

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Based on you owning a CS36T and the vendor being one with 'original replacement parts' I'm thinking their catalog has a bright yellow cover. My experience is similar to BLJones - never comfortable with their customer service and always had the feeling customers are their lowest priority. Fortunately there are other options once you get to know your way around the chandlers. Your best bet is to ask other boaters in your area and on your travels.
 
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