What boats come closest to the S&S 34? Speed, comfort, and ability to handle rough seas are the most important. I looked at the Sail Calculator but find that it is insufficient. I picked the S&S 34 for discussion because it seems to have a track record with several circumanvigators.
Boats like S&S 34
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Thanks Christian. The other day I saw a Cal 2-30. I ran it through the Sail Calculator. Seemed good. As I looked further I found it had a Fin Keel and Skeg Rudder (if I remember right). So it was not the right boat even though the speed, capsize factor, and comfort factors seemed as good as the S&S 34. So, I wanted first hand knowledge. I surfed the web some and the Olson 34 came up as a comparable boat.
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Anyone who thinks the Olson 34 and the S&S 34 are similar because they pop out similar numbers needs to stop thinking that the numbers capture the boat.
(In this particular case, needs to also learn to look at more numbers).
BTW the capsize screening and the motion comfort numbers are ... very questionable approximations. JeffH has written some good pieces on why.
(In this particular case, needs to also learn to look at more numbers).
BTW the capsize screening and the motion comfort numbers are ... very questionable approximations. JeffH has written some good pieces on why.
Makes sense. At first the Calculator seemed like a great way to learn about boats but I suppose one grows out of it as one goes along.
What is the fastest heavy weather boat under 40 feet? Handling conditions (think capsize) and speed are the main two criteria.
What is the fastest heavy weather boat under 40 feet? Handling conditions (think capsize) and speed are the main two criteria.
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Heh. Yeah.
You can go read bluewaterboats.org. Most of the boats there tend to be heavy displacement traditional/conservative designs with a long keel or moderate fin + skeg rudder. That would fit with Coles' book Heavy Weather Sailing, where Olin Stephens basically calls for moderate design and heavy construction.
There are others who swear by newer and much lighter designs, of course with lots of debate about which boats really merit trust. A high-aspect-ratio fin with a bulb can provide an impressive righting moment - on the other hand, a Farr-designed First 40.7 called Cheeki Rafiki just lost its keel and its crew in a nasty N. Atlantic storm. Lots of racers on Olsons would take them anywhere. Go read Paulo (PCP)'s Interesting Sailboats thread. The Europeans, especially the French have been very into this stuff - Pogo.
Yet another interesting French approach is the shallow-draft centerboard boats, which Alubat/Ovni has been doing for years. I just read about a guy who took a new Boreal 44 into some very nasty stuff and loves it. Aluminum boats with all-welded deck fittings = no leaks. They are relatively fast, he was posting 200+ mile days with slowing down at night, though not like a Pogo can do running full-out.
Again, JeffH has written some excellent posts about these questions. Google is your friend.
You can go read bluewaterboats.org. Most of the boats there tend to be heavy displacement traditional/conservative designs with a long keel or moderate fin + skeg rudder. That would fit with Coles' book Heavy Weather Sailing, where Olin Stephens basically calls for moderate design and heavy construction.
There are others who swear by newer and much lighter designs, of course with lots of debate about which boats really merit trust. A high-aspect-ratio fin with a bulb can provide an impressive righting moment - on the other hand, a Farr-designed First 40.7 called Cheeki Rafiki just lost its keel and its crew in a nasty N. Atlantic storm. Lots of racers on Olsons would take them anywhere. Go read Paulo (PCP)'s Interesting Sailboats thread. The Europeans, especially the French have been very into this stuff - Pogo.
Yet another interesting French approach is the shallow-draft centerboard boats, which Alubat/Ovni has been doing for years. I just read about a guy who took a new Boreal 44 into some very nasty stuff and loves it. Aluminum boats with all-welded deck fittings = no leaks. They are relatively fast, he was posting 200+ mile days with slowing down at night, though not like a Pogo can do running full-out.
Again, JeffH has written some excellent posts about these questions. Google is your friend.
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My yacht, a UFO 34 is very similar to a S&S 34 and here in Perth they used to race in the same fleet. However on Sail Calculator the numbers look pretty different. The two diagrams below show the similarities.
When I was looking for my yacht, three boats that were very similar were the S&S 34, UFO 34 and Van De Stadt 34. Biggest issue with the S&S 34 was the lack of room midship around the galley. The UFO 34 was better (mainly as they are about a foot wider) and the Van De Stadt had the most room.
Ilenart
When I was looking for my yacht, three boats that were very similar were the S&S 34, UFO 34 and Van De Stadt 34. Biggest issue with the S&S 34 was the lack of room midship around the galley. The UFO 34 was better (mainly as they are about a foot wider) and the Van De Stadt had the most room.
Ilenart
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Im very confused about this sail calculator thing
the s and s 34 is a fin and skeg...so is a yankee 38, a yankee 30, the contessa 32...
Im giving you boats that have VERY similar underwater designs, displacement, and ballast to displacement ratio, sail design too, to some extent...
the thing with numbers is it can bite you in the ass if you dont know what you are lloking for
for example an olson 34 has nothing remotely similar or in common to a s and s 34, however a contessa 32 looks and feels very similar to it...
other boats as well like some I posted
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its 2 feet shorter! jajaja duhJust ran the specs. The Contessa 32 is so very close as far as the calculator goes. I wonder how they are different.
sail desigin is similar, fin and rudder design as well as the iorish stern...probably as close as you are going to get
however you can look at the yankee 38 for ior inspiration...designed again by sparkman and stepehens...
the 34 has many attributes found on this boat(except the extreme squirelliness off the wind that made the yankee 38 famous...catalina bought the plans and changed the rudder design as well as keel shape for the later catalina 38 boats)
however the catalina 38 was buily lighter and "crappier" and wasnt as stout...but it became an awesome racer...also yankee corp was know to build extremely high quality boats and they preffered to quit making boats in the oil crisis rather than keep going half assedly.
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love the ufo 34 however its a spade rudder...My yacht, a UFO 34 is very similar to a S&S 34 and here in Perth they used to race in the same fleet. However on Sail Calculator the numbers look pretty different. The two diagrams below show the similarities.
When I was looking for my yacht, three boats that were very similar were the S&S 34, UFO 34 and Van De Stadt 34. Biggest issue with the S&S 34 was the lack of room midship around the galley. The UFO 34 was better (mainly as they are about a foot wider) and the Van De Stadt had the most room.
Ilenart
I thought the op wanted as close a design as possible to the s and s 34...
if all you are looking for is a fin and spade there are a gazillion boats out there that match the boat...
however as has been stated NUMBERS CAN BE DECIEVING...look for sailing qualities...similar ballast to displacement ratios, and sail area design...to get comparable boats
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Some quick thoughts off of the top of my head:
One of my favorite boats of that size and era is the Halsey Herreshoff designed Bristol 33/34.
Holman and Pye were some of my favorite designers during the era of the S&S 34. One of their nicer designs of that size is the Wauquiez Pretorien 35.
Garry Mull designed a wonderful 30 footer called the Chico 30. I had only heard of these boats since most of them were built in NZ and Aus. but got to see one half way through making a circumnav a few years ago and the owner sang its praises very highly.
A slightly older design, the Tartan 34 is a great all around boat from that era. I am also a big fan of the Tartan 30 which I like better than the the Tartan 34.
Both are newer designs that I like; the Farr 9.2 (keel version) which is a good all around boat, and the Farr 1020 is a spectacularly nice 34 footer.
Jeff
One of my favorite boats of that size and era is the Halsey Herreshoff designed Bristol 33/34.
Holman and Pye were some of my favorite designers during the era of the S&S 34. One of their nicer designs of that size is the Wauquiez Pretorien 35.
Garry Mull designed a wonderful 30 footer called the Chico 30. I had only heard of these boats since most of them were built in NZ and Aus. but got to see one half way through making a circumnav a few years ago and the owner sang its praises very highly.
A slightly older design, the Tartan 34 is a great all around boat from that era. I am also a big fan of the Tartan 30 which I like better than the the Tartan 34.
Both are newer designs that I like; the Farr 9.2 (keel version) which is a good all around boat, and the Farr 1020 is a spectacularly nice 34 footer.
Jeff
A few things, if you look at that drawing of the S&S I don't think that skeg would give any protection to the rudder, so it is essentially a spade with a touch of skeg in front of it. I think you are giving way too much credence to the "numbers" as they really don't say much. Even the creator of the "motion comfort" number has said it is really meaningless only capable of comparing very similar boats. The Olson is not in the same category as the S&S so that shows how the numbers don't in themselves tell you much.
I would not have any "must haves" like skeg hung rudder as there are thousands of boats out there actually sailing that have spade rudders. A well made spade will be stronger than a weak skeg hung rudder. There was a recent thread that showed how most skegs are not at all structural. They may give a touch directional stability, not not necessarily any strength. I would concentrate on finding boats that fit your budget then look into if they will fit your needs.
Of the "numbers" the main one I look at is sail area to displacement as that will give you an idea to light wind performance. Remember 90% of all cruising is going to be in light winds so that one is important most of the time.
I would not have any "must haves" like skeg hung rudder as there are thousands of boats out there actually sailing that have spade rudders. A well made spade will be stronger than a weak skeg hung rudder. There was a recent thread that showed how most skegs are not at all structural. They may give a touch directional stability, not not necessarily any strength. I would concentrate on finding boats that fit your budget then look into if they will fit your needs.
Of the "numbers" the main one I look at is sail area to displacement as that will give you an idea to light wind performance. Remember 90% of all cruising is going to be in light winds so that one is important most of the time.
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yup the one I always like is sail area and ballast to displacement ratio in general terms...
but like I said before know the designs, what you are looking for and the characterstics in REAL life versus what the numbers "say"
cheers
but like I said before know the designs, what you are looking for and the characterstics in REAL life versus what the numbers "say"
cheers
i like the notion of giving more weight to sail area to displacement. sweet.
all this is still a little confusing though. and, a lot of what is being said is subjective.
lets remove budget as a criteria for now and that might narrow us to the top 3 fast under 40 foot sail boats that can handle very heavy weather.
all this is still a little confusing though. and, a lot of what is being said is subjective.
lets remove budget as a criteria for now and that might narrow us to the top 3 fast under 40 foot sail boats that can handle very heavy weather.
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The S&S 34 was built in West Australia in a number of versions. Mark 1 had the skeg. Mark II was built with a spade rudder (also a taller twin spreader rig and a "Mk 2" keel). I changed my old "barn door" spade rudder for a more modern shape a couple of years ago and the mould was the same one used on the latest S&S 34s. Picture below.love the ufo 34 however its a spade rudder...
I thought the op wanted as close a design as possible to the s and s 34...
if all you are looking for is a fin and spade there are a gazillion boats out there that match the boat...
however as has been stated NUMBERS CAN BE DECIEVING...look for sailing qualities...similar ballast to displacement ratios, and sail area design...to get comparable boats
As Christian saids, I don't think you can get too specific with the numbers. The S&S 34 actual built displacements ranged from 11,000 to 13,000lbs, sail areas depends on whether you are talking about the short or tall rig, etc.
Ilenart
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Well, so are concepts such as "fast", or "can handle very heavy weather"...
You're asking questions for which there are no simple answers, and starting from a very ambiguous point. The S & S 34 is a wonderful boat, but hardly fits into the category of what most sailors would consider a "fast" boat under 40 feet...
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without being too repetitive you are looking at this from a wrong angle andy...
if you look at numbers you can come up with wildly different looking boats yet the numbers are similar as you have already seen.
you can search by decade design say ior, cca, etc or
you can look at the physical attributes and aspects of the boats
you can class them by displacements
you can class them by sail area or phrf
you can class them by sail design
or spade and fin
spade and full keel
skeg and fin
skeg and full keel
3/4, cutaway full keel, barndoor ad nauseum
the point is SIMILAR to me means similiar looking and performing...
so take your s and s 34 to me close very close is a contessa 32...however the contessa 32 is definitely more iorish because it has a very very small main...
other than that and the fact that they were built in different continents they have very similiar underwater features and performance
while this is subjective in the sense we are judging by looks and certain aspects to me its the best way to compare boats
real life versus say just NUMBERS...
it would be a fools errand to shop for boats on numbers alone...to me at least
you are confusing yourself now more because you have peoples likes and dislikes....added to the "numbers"
best way to search for boats is to hear real life stories about their sailing characteristics in racing, cruising, offshore scenarios, club racing etc...and compare
cheers
if you look at numbers you can come up with wildly different looking boats yet the numbers are similar as you have already seen.
you can search by decade design say ior, cca, etc or
you can look at the physical attributes and aspects of the boats
you can class them by displacements
you can class them by sail area or phrf
you can class them by sail design
or spade and fin
spade and full keel
skeg and fin
skeg and full keel
3/4, cutaway full keel, barndoor ad nauseum
the point is SIMILAR to me means similiar looking and performing...
so take your s and s 34 to me close very close is a contessa 32...however the contessa 32 is definitely more iorish because it has a very very small main...
other than that and the fact that they were built in different continents they have very similiar underwater features and performance
while this is subjective in the sense we are judging by looks and certain aspects to me its the best way to compare boats
real life versus say just NUMBERS...
it would be a fools errand to shop for boats on numbers alone...to me at least
you are confusing yourself now more because you have peoples likes and dislikes....added to the "numbers"
best way to search for boats is to hear real life stories about their sailing characteristics in racing, cruising, offshore scenarios, club racing etc...and compare
cheers
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