Build Quality: Ericson, Pearson, Sabre, Tartan
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GRR, I personally would be comfortable with a boat that had that core work done. However, I would still absolutely have my own survey to verify the results. Some moisture in the deck is almost a given in any boat older than 10 years of so. It's just a question of how much and what it will take to fix it. I think you will like the Pearson 31-2. Nice layout for a boat of that size and a good sailing boat.
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I have noticed that the asking price of used boats is in line with what most have posted here. Sabre asks the highest price, followed by C&C, Tartan, Pearson, Ericson, Catalina, Jeanneau, Hunter, etc.
That is not to say that it is an exact science and there are TONS of variables. Demand plays as much a part as build quality I would expect. Three are so many more Catalina and Hunter 30's on the market than, say, Tartan 3000's or C&C 30's that it must play some part in the asking price.
I'm still looking and the more I look the more confused I get.
Getting aboard a boat and actually sailing on it can help take it off your short list, or hopefully, make you fall in love with it and shorten the process.
I looked at two C&C 30MKII's thinking I would fall in love. One had issues that needed professional repair, mid-summer in a busy yard, not something I wanted to get involved in. The other was in much rougher shape than the photo's and description reflected. Very much a let down.
I recently sailed on a Tartan 34 and it's a nice boat, but I just didn't fall in love with it so I took it off me short list
As for the Atomic 4, it's a great engine, don't shy away from it. Simple upgrades like electronic ignition make it very reliable. Moyer Marine is casting blocks, heads, etc. and they are very easy to work on. If you where any bit of a gear head in high school you are already half way to being an A-4 expert. Also, Much less expensive to replace than a diesel and many of them have outlasted diesels.
That is not to say that it is an exact science and there are TONS of variables. Demand plays as much a part as build quality I would expect. Three are so many more Catalina and Hunter 30's on the market than, say, Tartan 3000's or C&C 30's that it must play some part in the asking price.
I'm still looking and the more I look the more confused I get.
Getting aboard a boat and actually sailing on it can help take it off your short list, or hopefully, make you fall in love with it and shorten the process.
I looked at two C&C 30MKII's thinking I would fall in love. One had issues that needed professional repair, mid-summer in a busy yard, not something I wanted to get involved in. The other was in much rougher shape than the photo's and description reflected. Very much a let down.
I recently sailed on a Tartan 34 and it's a nice boat, but I just didn't fall in love with it so I took it off me short list
As for the Atomic 4, it's a great engine, don't shy away from it. Simple upgrades like electronic ignition make it very reliable. Moyer Marine is casting blocks, heads, etc. and they are very easy to work on. If you where any bit of a gear head in high school you are already half way to being an A-4 expert. Also, Much less expensive to replace than a diesel and many of them have outlasted diesels.
Great Post, Sabreman! (reply #50)
And you've only owned it since '05.
We have been upgrading our boat since we bought it in '94, and at this point I have had to replace gear that I installed in our early years. (Sigh....)
Oh well, we like the boat a lot, and the replacement work usually goes faster because most of the preparation for wiring or plumbing was done the first time.
Cheers,
LB
And you've only owned it since '05.
We have been upgrading our boat since we bought it in '94, and at this point I have had to replace gear that I installed in our early years. (Sigh....)
Oh well, we like the boat a lot, and the replacement work usually goes faster because most of the preparation for wiring or plumbing was done the first time.
Cheers,
LB
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Anodized Aluminum vs. Teak Toe Rails
This sounds like a more stable solution. Would the toerails not have to be aluminum rather than teak though?
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I have noticed that the asking price of used boats is in line with what most have posted here. Sabre asks the highest price, followed by C&C, Tartan, Pearson, Ericson, Catalina, Jeanneau, Hunter, etc.
That is not to say that it is an exact science and there are TONS of variables. Demand plays as much a part as build quality I would expect. Three are so many more Catalina and Hunter 30's on the market than, say, Tartan 3000's or C&C 30's that it must play some part in the asking price.
I'm still looking and the more I look the more confused I get.
Getting aboard a boat and actually sailing on it can help take it off your short list, or hopefully, make you fall in love with it and shorten the process.
I looked at two C&C 30MKII's thinking I would fall in love. One had issues that needed professional repair, mid-summer in a busy yard, not something I wanted to get involved in. The other was in much rougher shape than the photo's and description reflected. Very much a let down.
I recently sailed on a Tartan 34 and it's a nice boat, but I just didn't fall in love with it so I took it off me short list
QUOTE]
Tons of variables is right!! The more I read and write on these posts though, the more my list is winnowing down. Certainly, getting on the boats and sailing them would be most helpful.
By Tartan 34, I presume you mean the 34-2 and not the 34-2? Both very good boats, but pretty different in styling and accomodations. I had a chance to sail on a 34-2 and it was a very nice boat. I like the exterior lines, but I'm not entirely sold on the interior. Something about the Tartan 34-2 and 33 interiors feels cramped and dark to me. Certainly, the heavy use of teak, especially on the 33 is a contributing factor. It remains on my list, but not as high as I had it initially.
This is re-assuring. I will certainly have a survey done on any boat I make an offer on and I will do a sea trial despite my novice sailor status, as that was the was the overwhelming recommendation of posters.
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Yes the toerails are anodized aluminum. It allows for blocks such as a preventor, frnders to be put on it also.
The stanchion bases fit over the toerail, with a grove in the stanchion base, then bolted on ( quite stable. You also have more room on your gunwales as the stantions do not take up space on them or have the proplem with the stanchions working their way and destroying the fiberglass through time. Here is a picture. South shore yachts has them and they can be fitted on other boats (toerails) other than C&C,s
Dave
http://www.southshoreyachts.com/album/images/typebbase2(lg).gif
The stanchion bases fit over the toerail, with a grove in the stanchion base, then bolted on ( quite stable. You also have more room on your gunwales as the stantions do not take up space on them or have the proplem with the stanchions working their way and destroying the fiberglass through time. Here is a picture. South shore yachts has them and they can be fitted on other boats (toerails) other than C&C,s
Dave
http://www.southshoreyachts.com/album/images/typebbase2(lg).gif
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One of the reason there are more Catalinas and Hunters is that they made so many more. They are true production boats.
Build quality is very important. I have upgraded my electronics and many systems as the years go buy so the add ons on my boat are sometimes way more advancaed than a 90,s or 2000 boat. The hull and boat are solid.
Narrow your choices to three and then find the best conditioned sailboat you can find.
Dave
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Dave,
Thanks for the link to the stanchion bases. This looks like a good solution and I will definitely keep it in mind when the time comes to re-bed.
GRR
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Pearson 34-1
So I've located a Pearson 34 that I'm considering going to see. This is a model that has been on my short-list. It is relatively close to where I live compared to the other examples on the market (in fact, if I ended up with this boat I could possibly sail it home rather than having it trucked) and has always been a freshwater boat save for 1 trip to the Bahamas. So that is the upside.
But there are some potential downsides:
1) The broker tells me that the boat was "side-swiped" about twenty years ago. He did not know a lot of detail, other than that he thinks the boat was able to be motored to a boatyard that had an excellent reputation for its work. He said some fiberglass work was done and then the hull was painted. He said you cannot tell by looking at the boat where the collision occurred, so apparently it is at least cosmetically okay. There is no paperwork for this repair. It is a two owner boat and the second owner reportedly knew the first owner well enough that he was not concerned about the integrity of the repair (and apparently the first owner) when he purchased the boat. The second owner apparently felt confident enough in the integrity of the hull to take the boat to the Bahamas.
2) This boat has the original Universal 5416 engine which rates at 16hp. It was pulled 3-4 years ago and completely rebuilt to the tune of about 3k. So, how long could I expect a rebuilt engine to last (ballpark)? I know the issue of underpowering has been debated elsewhere about the 16hp in a Pearson
34, with some folks saying you should always go with the 2hp/1,000lbs rule while others said that 16hp was good enough for Bill Shaw. I'm concerned about difficulty motoring in current/swells, although reportedly the current owner has never had difficulty motoring anywhere and felt confident enough to take it to the Bahamas and back.
3) All the electronics work, but are old so would need replaced in the coming years. Also, the main and genoa would likely need replaced in the next few years, but not immediately.
The boat is priced 7-10k below other examples that have bigger engines and more upgrades, but in the same ball park as some other examples with similar engines.
Worth a look or keep movin' on?
GRR
So I've located a Pearson 34 that I'm considering going to see. This is a model that has been on my short-list. It is relatively close to where I live compared to the other examples on the market (in fact, if I ended up with this boat I could possibly sail it home rather than having it trucked) and has always been a freshwater boat save for 1 trip to the Bahamas. So that is the upside.
But there are some potential downsides:
1) The broker tells me that the boat was "side-swiped" about twenty years ago. He did not know a lot of detail, other than that he thinks the boat was able to be motored to a boatyard that had an excellent reputation for its work. He said some fiberglass work was done and then the hull was painted. He said you cannot tell by looking at the boat where the collision occurred, so apparently it is at least cosmetically okay. There is no paperwork for this repair. It is a two owner boat and the second owner reportedly knew the first owner well enough that he was not concerned about the integrity of the repair (and apparently the first owner) when he purchased the boat. The second owner apparently felt confident enough in the integrity of the hull to take the boat to the Bahamas.
2) This boat has the original Universal 5416 engine which rates at 16hp. It was pulled 3-4 years ago and completely rebuilt to the tune of about 3k. So, how long could I expect a rebuilt engine to last (ballpark)? I know the issue of underpowering has been debated elsewhere about the 16hp in a Pearson
34, with some folks saying you should always go with the 2hp/1,000lbs rule while others said that 16hp was good enough for Bill Shaw. I'm concerned about difficulty motoring in current/swells, although reportedly the current owner has never had difficulty motoring anywhere and felt confident enough to take it to the Bahamas and back.
3) All the electronics work, but are old so would need replaced in the coming years. Also, the main and genoa would likely need replaced in the next few years, but not immediately.
The boat is priced 7-10k below other examples that have bigger engines and more upgrades, but in the same ball park as some other examples with similar engines.
Worth a look or keep movin' on?
GRR
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Indeed. You're taking all the fun out of this, GRR!
The world is your oyster right now, there are so many great boats to choose from.+1 on the Atomic Bomb. They are less expensive to maintain than a diesel, parts and online support are readily available over at the Moyer Marine forum. They are casting engine blocks and cylinder heads again! Although primative, they are easily upgradable to electric fuel pumps and electronic ignition.
Don't get me wrong, diesel engines are good too and if my boat had come with one, I wouldn't rip it out for an Atomic 4 unless the diesel was dying, obsolete AND inadequate to the task of pushing the boat.
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So I've located a Pearson 34 that I'm considering going to see. This is a model that has been on my short-list. It is relatively close to where I live compared to the other examples on the market (in fact, if I ended up with this boat I could possibly sail it home rather than having it trucked) and has always been a freshwater boat save for 1 trip to the Bahamas. So that is the upside.
But there are some potential downsides:
1) The broker tells me that the boat was "side-swiped" about twenty years ago. He did not know a lot of detail, other than that he thinks the boat was able to be motored to a boatyard that had an excellent reputation for its work. He said some fiberglass work was done and then the hull was painted. He said you cannot tell by looking at the boat where the collision occurred, so apparently it is at least cosmetically okay. There is no paperwork for this repair. It is a two owner boat and the second owner reportedly knew the first owner well enough that he was not concerned about the integrity of the repair (and apparently the first owner) when he purchased the boat. The second owner apparently felt confident enough in the integrity of the hull to take the boat to the Bahamas.
That's the beauty of fiberglass. It's relatively easy to repair. So long as the repairs are good, I don't know that I'd be concerned enough NOT to go have a look a the boat.
2) This boat has the original Universal 5416 engine which rates at 16hp. It was pulled 3-4 years ago and completely rebuilt to the tune of about 3k. So, how long could I expect a rebuilt engine to last (ballpark)? I know the issue of underpowering has been debated elsewhere about the 16hp in a Pearson
34, with some folks saying you should always go with the 2hp/1,000lbs rule while others said that 16hp was good enough for Bill Shaw. I'm concerned about difficulty motoring in current/swells, although reportedly the current owner has never had difficulty motoring anywhere and felt confident enough to take it to the Bahamas and back.
Hard to say. Ask who did the work. If you make an offer, have the engine surveyed.
3) All the electronics work, but are old so would need replaced in the coming years. Also, the main and genoa would likely need replaced in the next few years, but not immediately.
The boat is priced 7-10k below other examples that have bigger engines and more upgrades, but in the same ball park as some other examples with similar engines.
A new main and genoa will cost you nearly the 7k difference in price. Add some electronics upgrades, and you're well into the pricing for boats with better electronics and sails. It's up to you. Remember, there's the asking price, and there's what you offer. If you like the boat but the sails are in poor condition, then subtract that cost from your offer. The worse the current owner will say is "no". They might also make a reasonable counter offer as well.
Worth a look or keep movin' on?
Again, why not go have a look? It's not a bad way to spend part of a day. You might see some other boats at the dock that look interesting. Buying a boat is a process. So long as you're not in a rush, you'll find something that suits both you and your budget.
But there are some potential downsides:
1) The broker tells me that the boat was "side-swiped" about twenty years ago. He did not know a lot of detail, other than that he thinks the boat was able to be motored to a boatyard that had an excellent reputation for its work. He said some fiberglass work was done and then the hull was painted. He said you cannot tell by looking at the boat where the collision occurred, so apparently it is at least cosmetically okay. There is no paperwork for this repair. It is a two owner boat and the second owner reportedly knew the first owner well enough that he was not concerned about the integrity of the repair (and apparently the first owner) when he purchased the boat. The second owner apparently felt confident enough in the integrity of the hull to take the boat to the Bahamas.
That's the beauty of fiberglass. It's relatively easy to repair. So long as the repairs are good, I don't know that I'd be concerned enough NOT to go have a look a the boat.
2) This boat has the original Universal 5416 engine which rates at 16hp. It was pulled 3-4 years ago and completely rebuilt to the tune of about 3k. So, how long could I expect a rebuilt engine to last (ballpark)? I know the issue of underpowering has been debated elsewhere about the 16hp in a Pearson
34, with some folks saying you should always go with the 2hp/1,000lbs rule while others said that 16hp was good enough for Bill Shaw. I'm concerned about difficulty motoring in current/swells, although reportedly the current owner has never had difficulty motoring anywhere and felt confident enough to take it to the Bahamas and back.
Hard to say. Ask who did the work. If you make an offer, have the engine surveyed.
3) All the electronics work, but are old so would need replaced in the coming years. Also, the main and genoa would likely need replaced in the next few years, but not immediately.
The boat is priced 7-10k below other examples that have bigger engines and more upgrades, but in the same ball park as some other examples with similar engines.
A new main and genoa will cost you nearly the 7k difference in price. Add some electronics upgrades, and you're well into the pricing for boats with better electronics and sails. It's up to you. Remember, there's the asking price, and there's what you offer. If you like the boat but the sails are in poor condition, then subtract that cost from your offer. The worse the current owner will say is "no". They might also make a reasonable counter offer as well.
Worth a look or keep movin' on?
Again, why not go have a look? It's not a bad way to spend part of a day. You might see some other boats at the dock that look interesting. Buying a boat is a process. So long as you're not in a rush, you'll find something that suits both you and your budget.
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Personally, If the boat is overall in good shape, but as mentioned, electronics and sails are old.....you have the chance to put in what YOUR WANT! not what is already there! You may find yourself hooked up with a local YC< doing some club racing. have brand new dacron sails, and in two years are buying some pentex sails! With old ones, those could be the cruise daysail sails, or you buy a decent pentex/string main as I have, get some race sails, and a cruise jib as i wanted, not what they wanted! Electronics were the same on my boat, old, sorta worked, I put in what I wanted.
It was more fun in my book doing it this route. And yes, the boat was price accordingly!
Marty
It was more fun in my book doing it this route. And yes, the boat was price accordingly!
Marty
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Just to add to the list of cost associated with sailing... I bought a fairly clean boat to start with, but the itch for new toys and upgrades have been severe.
I bought the boat for $55250 and have spent over $25,000 in the past year and a half. Very little, maybe $2000, has been repairing anything... the rest has all been upgrades. Really, I cannot believe I have spent even half of that. I just adds up way too fast!
Here is a link to cost up to may of this year:
Matt & Jessica's Sailing Page » COST
I bought the boat for $55250 and have spent over $25,000 in the past year and a half. Very little, maybe $2000, has been repairing anything... the rest has all been upgrades. Really, I cannot believe I have spent even half of that. I just adds up way too fast!
Here is a link to cost up to may of this year:
Matt & Jessica's Sailing Page » COST
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Although I can't specifically speak for Sabre but I think you will find a common difference with most sailboat builders from models in the 70's to early 80's vs late 80's to 90's.
Older sailboats tend to have a modest beam but heavy displacement vs a wide beam but light displacement (compared to older models). Both will have a different feel while sailing and it becomes a personal preference.
It is a buyers market right now so you will be able to take advantage of some good deals... but good built sailboats will not drop a whole lot. I was thinking of getting a larger sailboat this year with a budget of $35k-$40k (Always loved the older Tartan 37s) but everyone I looked at within this range needed work or was not maintain well. Realistic budget would have been more like $55k plus some extra money for upgrades / rigging refit, etc..
Good luck!
Older sailboats tend to have a modest beam but heavy displacement vs a wide beam but light displacement (compared to older models). Both will have a different feel while sailing and it becomes a personal preference.
It is a buyers market right now so you will be able to take advantage of some good deals... but good built sailboats will not drop a whole lot. I was thinking of getting a larger sailboat this year with a budget of $35k-$40k (Always loved the older Tartan 37s) but everyone I looked at within this range needed work or was not maintain well. Realistic budget would have been more like $55k plus some extra money for upgrades / rigging refit, etc..
Good luck!
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Matt: great cost analysis. I am currently going through our P35 this fall/winter from bow to stern... I have not even started yet and I have already spent $4,000. I think there is a initial costs incurred which is buying the sailboat and then the recurring costs and constant upgrades and upkeep, and wants and needs.
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It's amazing how fast the price gets away from you. Our only fairly large purchases have been davits, windlass, watermaker and solar... everything else have been $100 here and $100 there.
We still need to redo the standing rigging and purchase a new radar and chartplotter. I'm guessing I have at least another $5000 to put into it before we are ready to leave for the islands.
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Amazing. You can do your bottom with only 2 quarts of VC17m?
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Mark,
It would not surprise me Matt could do his bottom with 2 qts of paint, assuming only once coat with some double layers, ie front of keel/waterline etc. I used all of 3-3.5 qts last feb with 2 full coats all around, and 4 at the waterline, leading/trailing edges of the keel and rudder. There were some notes in my OM from the originl owner that said something like 5 qts to paint the bottom. Maybe Matt and I were less liberal per coat than some?!?!?!?
Marty
It would not surprise me Matt could do his bottom with 2 qts of paint, assuming only once coat with some double layers, ie front of keel/waterline etc. I used all of 3-3.5 qts last feb with 2 full coats all around, and 4 at the waterline, leading/trailing edges of the keel and rudder. There were some notes in my OM from the originl owner that said something like 5 qts to paint the bottom. Maybe Matt and I were less liberal per coat than some?!?!?!?
Marty
Sorry for the delay--been away--but it looks like you've been covered. But no, never heard of Dry Boat. I thought that the decks on Pearsons, of the late 80's at least, had no core out at the toerail and for a couple of inches in.
Tossed my gaskets and just bedded with butyl--the gaskets will always allow too much flex.
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