Building/modifying sailing kayak?

James,

Long time no see. I had wondered how you had been making out. There is a long history of cruising in sailing decked canoes. WanderingStar mentions two of the most famous, and a third would be Nathaniel Bishop who went from the St. Lawrence River to Cedar Key Florida in a paper decked canoe.

While historic voyaging canoes were pretty impressive, there are a whole range of modern decked canoes that are big improvememts on the originals.

If I were in your shoes I think that I would look at Chesapeake Light Craft who makes a whole range of high quality canoe designs. They also make a sailing conversion kit which includes outer hulls to make a deck canoe or kayak into a trimarran.
Kayak & Canoe Sailing Rig: Ultra-Light, Easy to Assemble and Launch!

The issue of balancing a sailing canoe under sail is not as big as you think. Most sailing canoes and kayaks use leeboards which mount on a moveable thwart. Basically, once you have the boat rigged you can experiment with the thwart position until you end up achieving reasonable balance. You can then fine tune with sail trim and leeboard rake.

My other thought that comes to mind if you plan to build a boat was a small trimarran that I designed that was intended to be constucted in a friends apartment. It was basically a simplified plywood version of the Newick Tremilino.
Tremolino trimaran sailboat for sale
The Classic Tremolino Trimaran is Reborn | Small Trimarans

My design was no where near as sophisticated as the Newick design. It used AC exterior grade plywood. The hulls rig and cross arms disassembled and could be stored in a 22 x 5 foot space. I borrowed Newick's idea of using a Hobie 18 rig and mainsail but added a bigger jib.

The main hull was essentially a very long, narrow dory with a bunch of flare. The outer hulls were loosely based on early plywood trimarran's which had triangular sections.

You might also look at Dudley Dix's Trifold 3-Fold 6 plywood trimaran

Regards.
Jeff

Hello,

Wandering Star,

Thanks for the tip. I know about MacGregor, but he's the only one I had known of. I'll dig up the rest. I'm also going to go sign up for the yahoo group shortly. Thank you

Jeff_H,

Thanks, your insights have been really helpful over the years, even if I never did set off across the great blue beyond. I've been happily crewing for a few people, and sailing a few times a year, just day sailing while I allowed job and life to carry on.

I was down in Newport Beach a short while ago at the CLC west coast demo and tried and fell in love with a few of their boats. Specifically, I love the Night Heron, even though it doesn't have the same high volume design that a Chesapeake would give me, which would be advantageous crossing the channel, but at the end of the day, I want to play in the kayak, and I just feel a lot more connected to the Night Heron due to it's design. I'll be building from a kit since it's my first build, and making a stitch and glue model, which should be achievable over the winter with no problem. It's supposed to be 50 hours if you know what you're doing, 120 if you don't, so I'm budgeting 240 hours, and I thing I'll be fine.

I've talked with a number of people on their forums, who are amazingly helpful, and it's generally agreed that the rig needs more rudder than most kayak systems provide. The Watertribe people in Florida have a rudder which approaches what is necessary. From there, I'd still want to modify the rig to allow for reefing, but that should be (relative to building a wooden boat from scratch ) simple. The leeboard on the CLC rig mounts to the front amma arm, and as such, is a little forward of the ideal position, which becomes a greater issue with the undersized, unbalanced rudders.

I talked to a few people who have hooked up the Klepper sail system to the clc trimaran rig, and been pretty happy with the performance. Klepper USA - Folding Kayaks the joys of an easily driven hull adding the jib seems to help pointing dramatically, but there's not an elegant way to get the sail area reduced in a blow.

I'm not sure if I'm ready for a real sailboat right now. I like the idea that I can store the boat in my garage, and just go out when I feel like it. I was also looking at a Westwight Potter if I decided to go with a sailboat because I can find them used for under $4,000 in good condition, and there's a very active local club, but as it is, I have fallen in love with kayaking, and playing in the surf, and it allows me something I can do on an evening after work in the way a trailer sailor never will, but without the expenses of docking.

Beyond that, I have friends who have built their own boats, and while I want to build a boat at least once, I think a kayak or dingy is probably right-sized for me, and when it's time to upgrade to a "real" boat, I'll most likely buy an existing boat that "just" needs some work, as it's a familiar death (I've been helping my friends work on their boats, and improving my glassing and other similar abilities)

Regarding trimarans, I did get to crew on a farrier designed boat a few times, and despite how much I like the idea of self-righting boats, MAN, what a rocketship. =) They (trimarans) seem like an absolute blast, point much better than I was expecting, and would probably be ideal for the around-the-islands sailing I've been able to do recently, but honestly, it would be a tease. One of the reasons I'm staying away from real boats is the temptation to just start sailing south would be too much for me.

The dream of getting an inexpensive boat like a Triton and just taking off still looms, but now I've got quite a bit in the bank, and the debts I have since accrued are all getting payed off. I've spent more time traveling over land and think I could probably do much better now than I had in the past, but I'm also slower to jump on things, and moving at a much more deliberate pace. In the next few years I'll see where I am.

Thank you both again. I'll see you on the water

-- James

James,

Here's a vote for the CLC kit approach. I've seen their kayak sailrig in person (but haven't sailed it), and like the new version (simpler to build and rig up).

My kids and I built their Passagemaker dinghy a few years back, and it was a great experience. Just make sure you have plenty of clamps.

John,

Absolutely a beautiful boat. Well done. Thanks

... Wait a second. Do you have a roller furling rig on a dingy? What rig is that? How do you like it? is it worth it? If I decide to go with a klepper rig on the clc sail kit, that might be a way to power down from the cockpit.

Jeff_H,

I was thinking, right now the CLC sailrig has 55 square feet of sail. If I wanted something with a reefable main, and possibly better sail shape, would it be better for me to just steal a rig from some dingy somewhere? Suggestions?

Thanks.

-- James

jbarros said:

John,

Absolutely a beautiful boat. Well done. Thanks

... Wait a second. Do you have a roller furling rig on a dingy? What rig is that? How do you like it? is it worth it? If I decide to go with a klepper rig on the clc sail kit, that might be a way to power down from the cockpit.

Jeff_H,

I was thinking, right now the CLC sailrig has 55 square feet of sail. If I wanted something with a reefable main, and possibly better sail shape, would it be better for me to just steal a rig from some dingy somewhere? Suggestions?

Thanks.

-- James

Click to expand...

James,

Thanks for the compliment.

Yes, that's a roller furler (Harken Small Boat furler unit #454(?, I think)).

It is a fractional sloop rig, with the mainsail set on a sliding gunter yard. This keeps the overall height of the fixed rig very modest (good for those low bridges that the Watertribe navigates.)

The furler is worth every penny in my opinion. We use it primarily for convenience sake, but also as a means to "throw in a first reef". In other words, our first procedure for shortening sail is to douse the jib. The dinghy sails fine under main alone.

I'm sure Jeff will get back to your other question, but I will comment that the sail suggested for the CLC kayak sailrig is more than likely plenty adequate. First, it takes muck less sail area to push a kayak, even one fitted with amas and akas (essentially an ultralight trimaran). So it would be easy to get overpowered. Second, I have a lot of faith in the designer of that rig -- he's both an experienced sailor and kayaker and understands the concept thoroughly. I think borrowing a larger rig (like the one on our PMD) would be far too much.

CrazyRu,

The Hobie looks pretty cool. I still think I want to try to build my own small wooden vessel, but that's definitely a neat setup, and something I can look to for ideas.

I think I may need to get over the idea that I can have a kayak that's also a racing dingy, and look at less powerful rigs like the Pacific Action, or WindPaddle. They don't go to windward, and apparently, while the PA will do 90 degrees to the wind, everyone seems to agree that by the time you're 90 degrees off with no leeboard in the water, you're already losing so much sideways, and slow enough, that, well, paddling works better.

Both of those look like neat ideas, but looking at a device which requires bungies and multiple lines on the deck, and a defacto spring loaded caning device without the speed provided by a larger sail, nor the stability of amas kinda scares me, but this might just be my imagination. I'll head down to their local dealer (still 300 miles away, but I think that's worth it, given that I'm going to be spending a few hundred hours building my boat anyway ) and see what I can dig up to most assuage my fears and see how it would fit the kayaks I'm looking at (I hear a very narrow deck might be problematic)

The main advantage of the BOSS system seems to be that it is theoretically stowable, and something which can be set or struck from on the water. (although the zipper reefing idea is pretty neat) I'm not sure if that bit is important to me, given the local waters, and my plans, but the reefing part certainly is. I'm a little curious about their decision to make a tall sail for a kayak, given the high center of force should theoretically make it a lot more "tippy", but no one in the videos seemed to be having much of a problem. It's a shame it looks so "utilitarian" but it seems to have quite the track record.

I had to deal with the design issue when testing kayaks. They make a kit which does sail very well apparently, with the clc sail rig, but as a kayak itself, it's not nearly as fast, maneuverable, or just plain fun, as the kayaks I fell in love with which were just designed to be plain old kayaks.

John,

My biggest fear with the CLC is that it slips over the mast, so there is no means of reefing or dropping sail at sea. That just really isn't ok for the area I'm looking at crossing. All the other benefits; pointing, more sail, etc, were just things I thought I might be able to eak out while modifying the rig into something I could raise, lower, and reef while underway.

Thank you both again for your thoughts and information. I'll try to visit some places and get a chance to get my hands on some of this gear and try it out. =)

-- James

The idea of doing the whole thing from scratch sounds appealing too, as you mentioned, and with any boat one builds there is that line between interest in the project for itself, and the desire to get out on the water.

The more I think about it, the more a fully battened rig on a mast secured to the outriggers, with multiple reef points and a roller furling headsail sounds like a great way to have my go fast cake, and eat it (be able to survive stronger winds, and maintain a balanced sail plan while I'm at it) too. Is it possible to do all of this, and keep the controls mounted to the amas of the sail rig, so I can keep my kayak a basic functional kayak?

Could I take it even farther and put the big sailing rudders on the amas themselves ala catamaran, and get good steerage without mounting a rudder on a kayak which definitely doesn't need one for itself?

Perhaps I can't, but the more I think about it, the more eager I am to try it and at very least see if I can get a great story and some experience out of it. Either way, for now, the work is building the kayak, which leaves me months and months to continue to scheme and plan about the sail rig itself. =)

The first dilemma seems to be determining how much sail to carry, and how to best carry it low to the water, while maintaining a balanced rig... hrm. I suppose for that, I'd need to know a bit more about the shape of the hull and it's dynamics in the water, right? How does one start this process of designing sails for a given hull profile? What additional information do I need to bear in mind since it's a multi-hull rig?

Would it be appropriate to experiment with self made tarp or nylon sails, if I intended to eventually get decent dacron sails, or would none of the information really cross over?

Thanks

-- James

I think it is best to experiment with cheap sails. The shortcoming when changing cloth is that elasticity changes, so the cut would be different. But they will give you a good idea of drive and heeling force. Recutting old sails can be a good source, also used windsurfer sails.
I like low aspect traditional rigs like lug rigs. They give good drive for less heel, and work well with shorter spars. This makes them easier to rig, and easier to store. There are some good examples of these on the yahoo forum, and also on the woodenboat forum.
As far as reefing, you might consider different rigs for heavy or light air. I think if I got caught in a canoe or kayak with too much sail, I'd take it all in and paddle. You can use a downhaul on a marconi rig, or a lug rig's yard will brnig it down. I agree that sock type sails, and even sprit rigs, can be dangerous because they won't come down on deck. I think you'll be surprised how easily driven a kayak is by small amounts of sail. Remember you don't develope much force with a paddle, way less than 1 hp I'm sure.

The other reason that Gaff rigs still persist has a lot to do with the idea of a boat as system. For the most part, it is very difficult if not imposible to design a true gaff rig or sprit rig that will point as high as as well designed Bermuda rig, which in part results from difficulty controlling twist and in part because gaff rigs usually end up with more drag and weight aloft for thier drive.

But many small boats have hull forms and foils that are not all that efficient in going to weather, so that a small loss of rig efficiency does not hurt the boat's windward efficiency since their ability to go to windward is limited by the hull as much as the rig.

What gaff rigs do well is provide a lot of power when reeching or running without producing as much heeling force. Since the vertical center of effort of a gaff rig is lower in height than an equal area Bermuda rig, the gaff rig can can carry a lot more sail area for a given amount of heeling moment. With modern gear, this can be a pretty efficient rig for inefficient hulls.

The most modern very high performance boats have square head mainsails which offer the best of both worlds. Because they use a cantilevered batten to create the square head they are able to control twist and yet the square head allows them to optimize drive to heeling forces.

This is nothing new. In the 19th century, voyaging and racing canoes used a batwing rig which was essentially a gunter rig with a mainsail with huge roach supported on long battens that improved twist control and reefing. This rig was reefable and often carried a small jib as well.

Jeff

CrazyRu,

I just got an email reply from John at CLC who pretty much agreed with everything you said. They're a great way to make a kayak sail, but really never going to be a great sail boat.

John,

Those look like fun, but I'm sure I couldn't move one around with my little scion. the need to be cartopable or towable by a car with a towing capacity of "0" is a real problem when it comes to vessels looking to cross the channel.

Jeff,

I guess that was my question, why not just used a square headed full batten sail instead of a gaff or lug sail? is it just the cost or difficulty of making that type of sail? It seems like it would do everything the gaff would, including the low mast and large sail area? I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious here.

Thanks again guys, this is proving to be quite an educational experience.

-- James