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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,
My name is Frank, a 47 French and I look to meet other sailors who wish to buy a catamaran in being smarter...by co-owning it . Everybody who already owns a boat knows that if you don't live near the see (say Paris, 300 miles away like me! ), owning a boat means 6-8 weeks max per year and some WE. Often in the same navigation area and with some WE to work (hard) on the boat...and if I calculate well, if you split all costs in 4-6 co-owner, you can have a bigger/better/faster ship than alone ;)
So, I thought about Share/Co-Own my next boat; saw on the web many "fractionnal" companies who propose this kind of solution but generally for powerboat/yachts, or precise brands and it look more like a "charter" company than your own boat and program. Anyway, I believe that looking for some other co-owners is a way to go. The boat I target is a fast catamaran, 60ft (above, it becomes difficult to sail it, with familly and without crew), and a comfortable ship; I saw the TAG60 (have a look on their site: ww.tagyachts.com ) but it can be another one also, if same kind of spirit. The ship, co-own at 4, with the help of a management company, could do a program around the globe, giving each of his co-owners, a 10 weeks per year in different locations, all to be programmed by the owners on a 24 months planning. Let's discuss for those who are interesting by the idea or have heard about such experience
Cheers
Frank
 

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Telstar 28
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Logistically, with a boat that big and expensive, you'll probably have some serious issues trying to work out co-ownership. A 60' catamaran has more gear on it than you can comfortably load and unload each time you use it, so all of the "personal" gear aboard her becomes community gear and is shared among the co-owners. A windsurfing board, a kayak, etc are all things that might normally be aboard a boat that size. How do you plan on paying for these extras and containing the costs of use/breakage/maintenance among the co-owners.

Scheduling also becomes a concern as the number of people goes up. Holiday weekends like Easter and such are often popular for getting away, but there's only one boat and 4-6 people who want to use it... how do you schedule around conflicts??

Who is going to be responsible for moving the boat from location to location? Who pays for the captain and crew? Who pays for the maintenance. IT would seem to me that this approach is going to cost more than having a smaller boat all to yourself and be far less convenient.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hello SailingDog,
Yes, I agree with you, it needs the 4-6 owners be aligned AND got some "external help" to manage the ship (generally, such shared model is through a LLC company which shares are owned by the 4-6 owners); now, I've been owner (alone) of a 52ft, racer/cruiser monohull during 4 years (a SunFast 52 from Jeanneau, great ship) and the annual maintenance costs were only on me. There are companies (or solo skipper) who can be appointed to manage the ship, moves and maintenance between owners sailing periods.
The question of :
- "who is moving" the ship is the same, either you own 100% or 25%, depending if you always want to sail in the same area
- same for all gear (kayak, windsurf...): no a big deal to share it rather than pay 100%
- Scheduling is a must to do; on this, I would say that an annual meeting within co-owners (with good wines and beers preferably for a WE on board;) ), internet, owners from different countries, a good spirit and at least 7 to 10 weeks per owner per year should make everybody, on a 2 years planning, quiet happy...

I would conclude by saying: yes, it is not easy (but having had a ship, whatever is the size, it is dreams, pleasure and constraints...) but I still believe it is achievable and a good way to sail a 60ft that can sail easily 350 miles a day and so, giving you in a 2/3 weeks period, a large sailing area.

But as I say, I already tried the 100% owner of a 52ft mono and think about a co-ownership of a 60ft cata and advices from the community is welcome.
cheers
Frank
 

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Big Chicken Baby
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Are there no fractional sailing plans available in France? Sounds like that would be your best bet. Like anything else, it has its downsides but on most plans you are only locked in for a year. I'd start looking for a plan and try it for a year. If it works for you, great. If not, you can opt not to reup for the next year.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi Mimsy,
Problem with Fractional sailing plan you find on the market is you can't really choose your ship (they generally propose large manufacturer ship which are easy to resell after the 5 years plan)and the plan generally is open for some chater period: so, it is not your boat but you "rent it" for a fixe 4-8 weeks per year that you can even exchange against another boat in another location. This is for me Charter, no co-own my ship...but interesting to see that you tried a year and stop: why ?
Frank
 

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Big Chicken Baby
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No, we opted not to go the fractional route because we would not be able to do what we wanted to do, which is take off for a month at a time. Also, the best plan in our area offered only Hunters. I know some people have them and love them, but they are not my cup of tea. Every boat has it pluses and minuses, its just a matter of finding your personal sweet spot.

I do know that several companies in the US allow owners to list their boats into fractional plans. Don't know if you have one in your area, but this might be a way for you to get the vessel you want. The downside I can see is that others might not treat your vessel with the same care as which you would and you need to be able to support the entire cost of the boat yourself in case you have a hard time getting members to buy time on your boat.
 

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Good topic! I am also looking at starting a sailboat ownership "syndicate," aka a joint ownership arrangement. Such an arrangement is popular for gliders, I have learned, and I am starting the process of modifying a gliding syndicate agreement for use by a sailing syndicate.

My initial plan is to attract possible owners via craigslist and other region-based forums and see what each person is looking for in a boat. I am aiming a bit lower than the OP, since I wouldn't mind sailing a used, mid-sized daysailer like a Chysler 20 or Capri 22.
 

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These arrangements are one of convenience. Trying to buy something you can't afford, or are not willing to pay for in full. These are difficult relationships to say the least. They do work, but not often. BEST WISHES in jumping this hurdle. It's setting is high........i2f
 

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We were involved in a totally successful boating partnership that lasted for 15 years - and would still be ongoing if not for our decisions on career change and relocation.

It CAN work, but takes, like a marriage, a good match of partners, some give and take, similar goals and expectations, and an equal ability to pay.

Prior agreement on maintenance budgets, monthly installments, annual projects and upgrades is important, as well as building a kitty for the inevitable "oops" that may occur. Written understandings on who's responsible for what in the event of an incident.

Success also depends on the intended arrangements. In ours we primarily sailed as a group; we and our kids were friends, the boat was a handful and so we enjoyed the large crew available. It was relatively rare for either partners' to take the boat for any length of time on their own - it was fine to do so, but rarely happened so we had little issue with the potential "time share" aspect.

We agreed that the user resposnible for damage (if on our own) was also responsible for any insurance deductable incurred. If the incident occurred with all owners involved, the onus was shared too.

We put a monthly installment into a joint account and paid maintenance expenses out of it.. if large projects were undertaken, the account got a 'top up". Any excess was a rainy day fund.

We also agreed in advance on the approach to dissolving the arrangement, with buy-outs by either side, or appraising the boat and listing it for sale (which we eventually did - it sold and we both have moved on to new-to-us slightly smaller boats) We continue to cruise together in groups.

On the plus side, all costs are cut in half, the work load is cut in half, and, as in our case, we had lots of crew. Essentially we enjoyed a lot more boat than we would have otherwise on our own. Another wrinkle in our particular experience is that we ended up running 2 boats in the deal.. a 40' "cruiser" and a 24' day racer - we had the best of both worlds... It was a good deal all round, and we're all still friends.

I'm not sure about a multiple ownership syndicate, as time share issues would then become more complicated, but I've seen it work on simple race boats.
 

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Salut Frank-
Il me semble qu'il te faut trouver d'abord des partenaires qui pensent comme toi, et ensuite trouver ensemble le bateau qui convient à vos désires. Ça ne va pas être facile. Je m'y connais rien en catas, mais 60 pieds me semble bien grand pour affaler la gv dans un orage à moi seul, ou même avec un copain qui j'ai invité pour se détendre pendant la semaine. Avec les inconvenients que Sailingdog a mentionné, ce serait peut-être plus facile (ET moins cher) de louer un unité quand tu veux avec tous les kayaks, Windsurfers, jetski et autres aménagements voulus, au lieu d'avoir les coûts et frais de propriétaire. Ce serait aussi probablement plus facile d'arranger ton horaire avec une compagnie de location qui aurait une dixaine de bateaux qu'avec plusieurs partenaires qui diviserait un seul bateaux entre eux. Bon vent, mais je crois que tu nages contre le courant, ici.
 

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Like Bill says~
If it works out well and you both get along, it's fantastic.. everything is half price, and repairs are done twice as quick..
But if it doesn't it's a pain in the ass....

i would guess the smaller number the better... if you've already owned a 52, you should split a 60 with a close friend..
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for your contribution

We were involved in a totally successful boating partnership that lasted for 15 years - and would still be ongoing if not for our decisions on career change and relocation.

It CAN work, but takes, like a marriage, a good match of partners, some give and take, similar goals and expectations, and an equal ability to pay.

Prior agreement on maintenance budgets, monthly installments, annual projects and upgrades is important, as well as building a kitty for the inevitable "oops" that may occur. Written understandings on who's responsible for what in the event of an incident.

Success also depends on the intended arrangements. In ours we primarily sailed as a group; we and our kids were friends, the boat was a handful and so we enjoyed the large crew available. It was relatively rare for either partners' to take the boat for any length of time on their own - it was fine to do so, but rarely happened so we had little issue with the potential "time share" aspect.

We agreed that the user resposnible for damage (if on our own) was also responsible for any insurance deductable incurred. If the incident occurred with all owners involved, the onus was shared too.

We put a monthly installment into a joint account and paid maintenance expenses out of it.. if large projects were undertaken, the account got a 'top up". Any excess was a rainy day fund.

We also agreed in advance on the approach to dissolving the arrangement, with buy-outs by either side, or appraising the boat and listing it for sale (which we eventually did - it sold and we both have moved on to new-to-us slightly smaller boats) We continue to cruise together in groups.

On the plus side, all costs are cut in half, the work load is cut in half, and, as in our case, we had lots of crew. Essentially we enjoyed a lot more boat than we would have otherwise on our own. Another wrinkle in our particular experience is that we ended up running 2 boats in the deal.. a 40' "cruiser" and a 24' day racer - we had the best of both worlds... It was a good deal all round, and we're all still friends.

I'm not sure about a multiple ownership syndicate, as time share issues would then become more complicated, but I've seen it work on simple race boats.
I'm happy to see that at least, some (even few) believe it is possible (even very difficult...) thank you for having shared with us your experience of "co-ownership"
Frank
 

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At the moment I'm willing to buy out...
We never even thought about this before, so now it is difficult to set a reasonable amount for buying out.

What are average guidelines for buying in and buying out?

Thanks.
 
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