I am looking to purchase a boat for racing in the local PHRF fleet. I would like to stay in the PHRF C fleet 170 rating and up. Anyone have any suggestions in the 25-28 foot range on a boat that would would sail well to its rating. I would also like the boat to have minor cruising comforts for overnight cruises and weekend regattas. I also posted on buying a boat message board.
buying boat for PHRF racing
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I resently own a Pearson 28, 1980 vintage which sails and competes well. She has a base PHRF rating of 195 and have placed in the top three during much of her racing days in the 1980''s. She is actually a stiffer boat than say a Pearson 30. She is presently for sale and can be viewed in Boatserch.com, listing #1895.
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Check out the Catalina 25 or 27 Not sure what the PHRF numbers are but they are good combo boats
First off PHRF ratings vary from region to region so the numbers that I ma quoting may not be the same in your area.
There are a number of different ways to approach finding a boat to race PHRF with a rating of 170 or above. One way is to look for an older one design race boat. Boats like the J-24 (174), J-22 or Kirby 25 (171-174) can be purchased fairly reasonably and generally can be sailed to their rating. Because these are race boats much is know about the design of their sails and proper tuning procedures. These have minimal interior comforts but they are fun to sail and are quiet fast which makes it especially easy to save your time in light air or a dying breeze.
Another way to go is with a cruiser/racer. Boats like the Catalina 27 (204), and Pearson 30 (180) are reasonably fast boats which also have reasonable interiors. These are still raced one design and so tuning info is available. They do require some upgrades from a stock boat to make them competitive but you can often buy an optomized and competitive boat for a reasonable price.
Then there are old MORC boats. These seem to be reasonably competitive. A good example might be the Lindenberg 26 (180) which in the right hands is a very fast boat.
Another way to go is to buy a reasonably quick boat that is not thought of as a race boat. Since few of them are raced in an optomized form they can have very competitive ratings. Two boats that come to mind here is the Irwin Citation 30 (171-183) and the Hunter 30 (177-180). Both these boats are primarily bought as cruisers by cruisers and so have pretty generous PHRF ratings. Neither were all that well built and may have other problems associated with them but they can be made into pretty competitive PHRF boats. My dad raced owned and raced a 1981 Hunter 30. He did some optomization, better sails and deck hardware,and went club racing for several years without finishing any lower than a first or second place. They lowered his rating several times totalling 12 seconds a mile and he still did very well. What was interesting in his case is that other Hunter 30 owners complained that the rating changes were too extreme and the rating was actually raised by 3 secs so the net change was only 8 secs. If you go that route look for deep keel -tall rig versions of the Irwin as they are much faster than their shoal draft, short rig sisters. In the case of the Hunter 30 the shoal keel is less of a penalty but the tall rig is still a good idea.
Then there are boats that are just good sailing boats like the Ranger 23 and 26, or Santana 235 and 525''s.
Good luck with your campaign.
Jeff
There are a number of different ways to approach finding a boat to race PHRF with a rating of 170 or above. One way is to look for an older one design race boat. Boats like the J-24 (174), J-22 or Kirby 25 (171-174) can be purchased fairly reasonably and generally can be sailed to their rating. Because these are race boats much is know about the design of their sails and proper tuning procedures. These have minimal interior comforts but they are fun to sail and are quiet fast which makes it especially easy to save your time in light air or a dying breeze.
Another way to go is with a cruiser/racer. Boats like the Catalina 27 (204), and Pearson 30 (180) are reasonably fast boats which also have reasonable interiors. These are still raced one design and so tuning info is available. They do require some upgrades from a stock boat to make them competitive but you can often buy an optomized and competitive boat for a reasonable price.
Then there are old MORC boats. These seem to be reasonably competitive. A good example might be the Lindenberg 26 (180) which in the right hands is a very fast boat.
Another way to go is to buy a reasonably quick boat that is not thought of as a race boat. Since few of them are raced in an optomized form they can have very competitive ratings. Two boats that come to mind here is the Irwin Citation 30 (171-183) and the Hunter 30 (177-180). Both these boats are primarily bought as cruisers by cruisers and so have pretty generous PHRF ratings. Neither were all that well built and may have other problems associated with them but they can be made into pretty competitive PHRF boats. My dad raced owned and raced a 1981 Hunter 30. He did some optomization, better sails and deck hardware,and went club racing for several years without finishing any lower than a first or second place. They lowered his rating several times totalling 12 seconds a mile and he still did very well. What was interesting in his case is that other Hunter 30 owners complained that the rating changes were too extreme and the rating was actually raised by 3 secs so the net change was only 8 secs. If you go that route look for deep keel -tall rig versions of the Irwin as they are much faster than their shoal draft, short rig sisters. In the case of the Hunter 30 the shoal keel is less of a penalty but the tall rig is still a good idea.
Then there are boats that are just good sailing boats like the Ranger 23 and 26, or Santana 235 and 525''s.
Good luck with your campaign.
Jeff
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Well I have been racing class C size boats all my life. I have a merit 25 which is a killer. I can hang with the J24 upwind and I smoke em downwind and on re4aches. I think that a Tarten 3000 is a great bigger 30ft boat that rates 158-171 depending on the area. I borrowed one this year and smoked everyone. I did alot of work to get it back to racing conditions. but all in all it out preformed everyone else. so That is a good one to look at plus it is great for cruising,.... Umm person 30''s the old ones are pretty good all around boats. they are around 186 or so. Umm s2 7.9 are great boats allso. not much below but much more than my merit 25. Just in case yr wondering. I should have sold my merit yrs ago when I first noticed the deck delamintation. but instead of selling it, I currently have it in the back yard, with the deck off so I can recore the whole thing. That my tell you how much I love the way my boat performs...... Its a great boat. Capri 25''s do well also. ummmm who knows find a goodone. goodluck later
Zaney is right. I completely forgot about the Capri 25''s. If you can keep them together they were real successful PHRF''ers. Merit 25''s were a nice design but they have been very successful here on the Chesapeake except for Stingray, a heavily customized Merit 25 with a cut down deck from a Schock 30/30 and a custom rig and keel which is mostly raced in MORC class.
Jeff
Jeff
Thanks for all the info guys. I currently crew on a Pearson 30 in Hampton, Virginia and would love to get one for racing but I know what it cost to keep decent sails on that boat that is why I would like to stay smaller.
We have three capri 25''s that race locally and I was thinking about one of them. The Merit looks like a nice boat I saw one for sale on the bay a couple months ago, I wonder if it''s still available.
There is schock santana 25 with lots of racing equipment and a locker full of sails available locally, anyone know anything about them?
I raced on a Kirby 25 out of annapolis for one season, that was fun boat to sail. It was early in my racing experience and I didn''t know a whole lot, is that boat hard to sail fast? We did really well on the one I crewed on, but the skipper was awesome.
We have three capri 25''s that race locally and I was thinking about one of them. The Merit looks like a nice boat I saw one for sale on the bay a couple months ago, I wonder if it''s still available.
There is schock santana 25 with lots of racing equipment and a locker full of sails available locally, anyone know anything about them?
I raced on a Kirby 25 out of annapolis for one season, that was fun boat to sail. It was early in my racing experience and I didn''t know a whole lot, is that boat hard to sail fast? We did really well on the one I crewed on, but the skipper was awesome.
I owned a Kirby 25 back in the 1980''s. I thought it was a wonderful boat. In club level racing, I always did well under PHRF with the boat typically placing in the top three in a fleet that varied between 12 to 20 boats. In CBYRA High Point races I did not fair as well. Obviously the racing was at a higher level. I was a good sailor by that time but really was learning a lot about skippering my own boat and so would often snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (you know the type of thing where you come around the last mark of the fall series in first place boat for boat as the slow boat in the fleet and then taking a small flier and ending up in 9th or something like that).
As much as I really loved the Kirby 25, I think they are very hard boats to sail to their rating. There is a huge difference in speed (often over 1/2 a knot) between being dialed in and moving at full speed and being out of trim and going slow. In heavy air upwind, for example, there was a guarenteed .2 knots moving one person aft into the cockpit.
The Capri 25''s seemed to have an easier time sailing to their rating. They were not as fast upwind or in surfing conditions as we were but definitely had more speed on us in most other conditions. They are not nearly as well built as the Kirby 25''s and so they needed remedial structural work at shroud and bulkead attachment points. Most of the Capri''s that were raced hard around here had those mod''s. If you are just getting into racing then the Capri 25 might be an easier boat to do well with, but the Kirby might teach you more about finessing speed out of a boat. The Kirby has recently had a resurgance in Annapolis with 6 or more being actively raced in recently years in PHRF and MORC.
BTW: Which Kirby 25 did you race on in Annapolis?
Good luck
Jeff
As much as I really loved the Kirby 25, I think they are very hard boats to sail to their rating. There is a huge difference in speed (often over 1/2 a knot) between being dialed in and moving at full speed and being out of trim and going slow. In heavy air upwind, for example, there was a guarenteed .2 knots moving one person aft into the cockpit.
The Capri 25''s seemed to have an easier time sailing to their rating. They were not as fast upwind or in surfing conditions as we were but definitely had more speed on us in most other conditions. They are not nearly as well built as the Kirby 25''s and so they needed remedial structural work at shroud and bulkead attachment points. Most of the Capri''s that were raced hard around here had those mod''s. If you are just getting into racing then the Capri 25 might be an easier boat to do well with, but the Kirby might teach you more about finessing speed out of a boat. The Kirby has recently had a resurgance in Annapolis with 6 or more being actively raced in recently years in PHRF and MORC.
BTW: Which Kirby 25 did you race on in Annapolis?
Good luck
Jeff
Jeff,
I thought I remembered that the Kirby was not easy to sail to its rating.
I sailed with Pete Geis on the Yellow Kirby 25 during the 95 or 96 wend series and the frost bite series. Pete was a great skipper, he always seemed to know where to be on the course and how to keep the boat moving. I have not kept in touch, do you know if he is still racing?
One of the Annapolis Kirby''s (I think it use to belong to a guy name John dark blue hull docked next to Pete at AYC) showed up down here two years ago. It went on the auction block and sold for $3K, I was really bummed I missed that boat.
I really enjoyed the Kirby and still would consider one. I guess if I could learn to sail one, without getting to frustrated, I would really gain a good feel for boat and sail trim, and it may help prevent me from picking up some bad habits.
I was thinking seriously about a Capri (it is alway more fun to race boat for boat rather than rating for rating), I had not heard anything about the structural problems, something to look at.
Bill
I thought I remembered that the Kirby was not easy to sail to its rating.
I sailed with Pete Geis on the Yellow Kirby 25 during the 95 or 96 wend series and the frost bite series. Pete was a great skipper, he always seemed to know where to be on the course and how to keep the boat moving. I have not kept in touch, do you know if he is still racing?
One of the Annapolis Kirby''s (I think it use to belong to a guy name John dark blue hull docked next to Pete at AYC) showed up down here two years ago. It went on the auction block and sold for $3K, I was really bummed I missed that boat.
I really enjoyed the Kirby and still would consider one. I guess if I could learn to sail one, without getting to frustrated, I would really gain a good feel for boat and sail trim, and it may help prevent me from picking up some bad habits.
I was thinking seriously about a Capri (it is alway more fun to race boat for boat rather than rating for rating), I had not heard anything about the structural problems, something to look at.
Bill
It''s a small world. I raced with Peter Geis on NevrEnuf, his orange Kirby 25 probably a year or so before you. I sailed with Peter the first year that he had the Kirby to try to help him transition from Anthem, his heavier weight offshore cruiser/racer into the proper method of sailing lighter boats and also bring him up to speed on sailing fractional rigged boats. He and John owned three Kirby 25''s between them; Firefly, NevrEnuf, and the blue one. My boat was white with blue and red cove stripes and was called Miss B. Havn when I owned her and was later called Marylyn. She''s up for sail and can probably be bought for something in the $5K range with a trailer and a big sail inventory. She was rigged for a masthead asymetrical.
Good luck and best wishes for a happy New Years to you.
Jeff
Good luck and best wishes for a happy New Years to you.
Jeff
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Would also recommend a Capri 25. Have had mine for 8 years, one of the last ones build in 1986. Races well to its rating here (173) vs J24 (172) vs Merit 25 (169). Trophied in every regatta we entered last year. Picked up PHRF overall for 2000.
We get light air in the mountains and the full masthead rig is great in light air. Heavy air requires a quick head sail change to 135% at about 15 knots but it''s wide beam seems to help keep its feet and makes for good cabin room but no head room.
Capri website at www.wyc.org/capri25/ Many boats listed. Have seen prices from $5k to 12k
We get light air in the mountains and the full masthead rig is great in light air. Heavy air requires a quick head sail change to 135% at about 15 knots but it''s wide beam seems to help keep its feet and makes for good cabin room but no head room.
Capri website at www.wyc.org/capri25/ Many boats listed. Have seen prices from $5k to 12k
I looked at the Capri 25 and like what they do in our area (southern Chesapeake Bay). We get a lot of light wind days in the summer and they are tough to beat. I also like the fact that there are several of them sailing here already, so there would be some good boat for boat competition.
I saw a post above indicating that these boats may need structural repair at shroud and bulkhead attachment points. Has your boat required this work? If so, is it a doit yourself project? What type of cost is involved?
BTW where do you race?
Thanks for the reply.
Bill
I saw a post above indicating that these boats may need structural repair at shroud and bulkhead attachment points. Has your boat required this work? If so, is it a doit yourself project? What type of cost is involved?
BTW where do you race?
Thanks for the reply.
Bill
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I have not found any structural repairs necessary over the 8+ years I have had the boat (other than racer/skipper inflected).
The boat has a few gel cracks at the cockpit seat to bulkhed area. The main chainplates at the mast come through the deck and bolt to a marine ply bulkhead. These need to be maintained, tighten and checked or they will work. I keep the mast pretty taut and main shrouds with a good pre-bend. Any mast play,bounce, could aggrevate this support connection.
I sail out of Denver and travel 1,000+ miles to 8 regattas a year in Colo, Wyo and Neb. Alot of rigging and tuning. The air is a little tiner at 5200'' to 10,000'' elevation, which mean I can carry the 155% up to about 16-18 knots at times.
The boat has a few gel cracks at the cockpit seat to bulkhed area. The main chainplates at the mast come through the deck and bolt to a marine ply bulkhead. These need to be maintained, tighten and checked or they will work. I keep the mast pretty taut and main shrouds with a good pre-bend. Any mast play,bounce, could aggrevate this support connection.
I sail out of Denver and travel 1,000+ miles to 8 regattas a year in Colo, Wyo and Neb. Alot of rigging and tuning. The air is a little tiner at 5200'' to 10,000'' elevation, which mean I can carry the 155% up to about 16-18 knots at times.
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