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You posted a link to picture of a swiftsure towing a dinghy about the third of it's length so you can look and see what it looks like. I tow a 9'9" inflatable behind a 26' MacGregor and I am sure it looks like an inflatable the military would use, it is rather large (17" tubes) and has a little 5hp engine on the transom. I have to run my 50HP on the back of my Macgregor about an extra 500 rpm to compensate for the drag and maintain the same speed I like without towing (about 8 knots). It is a real joy to have a little dinghy to scoot around in and explore with when I get to any destination but I confess that I absolutely hate towing the stupid thing around with me, too much drag and always have to keep a watch on it. I only tow it when on extended trips of several days otherwise I'll go without just because it slows me down. One time I was crossing the San Juan Channel under sail and it seemd like the other few sailboats were passing me like I as sitting still because the dinghy really slowed us down under sail. You will lose about 2 knots depending on the weight while towing. They are a pain to tow but a joy to have.
 

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There'll be no problem towing a dinhy, but it will slow you down some. In chop or heavy rain and a hard dinghy it's useful to have a drain plug open so that any spray/rain doesn't accumulate and really make the little tub heavy. You just need to remember to replace the plug once you stop moving and before taking Bowser ashore!

Your boat is too small to carry the tender, so you're pretty much stuck with towing it.
 

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If you're willing to spend more on your tender than you did on the yacht, I saw at the boat show this 10-lb inflatable that rolls up and stows in a tiny bag. Amazing.

I shopped around a bit and went with a 14' SeaEagle inflatable kayak, which tucks neatly into a quarter berth when rolled up. 35 lbs, though. While it's probably not as tough as hypalon or whatever, I figure I can destroy five or six of them for the price of a real inflatable. Takes about ten minutes to set up; we've been using it to go ashore in the San Juans. Haven't tried towing it due to the chop... I expect it would flip.
 

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Kayaks are a great idea, esp the plastic ones (beachproof) but problematic on a boat under 30 feet - they don't tow well as a rule and even the little 10 footers take up some deck space. The inflatable ones such as Adam mentions get the job done but are susceptible to oysters and barnacles, like any other inflatable.

Looking forward to hearing how your weekend turns out, Serah!
 

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I was reasonably surprised to see people on here so local! I'm at Lynnwood at the moment, been there a couple of years now and it's pretty good despite the constant price increases...

The best thing about it is that it's simple to just go under the second narrows to go for a day trip up the indian arm, or pay a bit more attention to the tides and head out towards howe sound to Gibsons etc. Good day trips. Definitely a bit tedious to get all the way out from the marina to English Bay, I can't imagine it from Port Moody there, deep cove would be a bit of a pain too I think.

Anyways, I have a US25 and it pulls the dinghy well enough. Mines a deflatable one though and not a proper tender as you may have. I suppose it depends on the motor on the boat itself, but the merc 9.9 I had before did ok. I do have to say that the high thrust yamaha 9.9 on now does a better job though.. pricey but well worth the extra power and reliance/efficiency and quietness. I would expect you to be slowed down a good knot or two I think. I don't have much more info on that, I'll let the more experienced speak up here.

On a related note, I would never buy a boat with a squishy deck. After doing enough research on the subject, no matter how cheap the boat, it just seems like way too much work to be worth it. Lotsa boats out there, no need to buy one that it just going to be lots of work. I got my boat without having to put anything into it other than what I wanted to put in. Sailable at the point of purchase is very attractive in my mind.
 

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Serah, got that link for the ultralight. It's called a "Feathercraft" (Feathercraft Folding Kayaks & Accessories) and it's not as expensive as I recall. I got to toss one up in the air at the boat show -- it really is ultralight, and still seems fairly rugged. Rolls up into a backpack-sized back (2 ft. x 8" x 10").
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I love the idea of a kayak! However, wrestling my bumbling, uncoordinated 70 lbs. golden retriever mutt (see my avatar!) into one seems like a recipe for wet. Also, as I used to instruct/guide kayaking, I'm a bit of a kayak snob, and would likely be appalled at the way those paddle :( As the boat is of such low value already, I'm disinclined to dump an equal amount into a new (or even used) dinghy. Especially as the lovely Galleon is mine already. Also, as we're so limited on space down below it makes stowing an inflatable down there rather unappealing.

I'm still not that psyched about Reed Point, but worry that holding out on a "maybe" at Burrard might turn out to be a no, and likely the one remaining slip at Reed would be gone, and then we're stuck with a boat, and nowhere to keep her. Summer nights on the Arm is better than watching from the shore, right? Plus it's only six months, and we'll be talking to marina's over in Victoria soon to figure out moorage for the fall. I'm one of the lucky few that will now have 3 boats I sail on regularly (two out of false creek - a CS 27 for racing, and the family 42' for longer cruising) 4 if you count the Galleon ;)

How long will the results from a survey take to come through? We haul at 10.30 on Saturday, and the surveyor will be there with us around 9. Assuming all is well, we were hoping to close on her this weekend. Is this completely unrealistic?

If we decide this is our girl, we'll spend the rest of the weekend in harbour at RVicYC doing some of the essential projects (*cough* new battery *cough*) as we don't think we'll have time to run up to Montague Saturday afternoon. The prospect of anchoring an unfamiliar boat in the dark seems... well ridiculously reckless. So she'll stay in Victoria until the next weekend, leaving the full two days to sail her home.
 

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Sounds pretty exciting. We bought our sailboat last June (first boat). The surveyor gave a verbal report at the end of the survey and said there was no reason not to buy the boat. The written report we received by email a couple of days later was much more detailed and to my mind not as upbeat as the surveyor was at the time. Never having been through the process I waited until I had received the written report before making a decision. In the end it did not change our minds but it could have. The written report made it clear that certain things needed to be done and since the insurance company wants a copy of the survey I assume those things must be done for the insurance to be valid.

Maybe your surveyor will have the time at the end to go over his findings in detail. Mine had a pretty full schedule. He was thorough and used his time in the field to survey and his time in the office to report.

I know it is hard to wait once you think you have made up your mind! Good luck this weekend.
 

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He'll give you a talking to right then and there, pointing out the good and the bad so you could make the call then. Depending on the surveryor, he will write something mroe official probably within a few days.

We have had dinghy struggles with our 24; mainly in deciding what is best. The little hard dinghy we have is so small it is unstable so we went with a small, cheaper inflatable... but it doesn't tow in the traditional manner. We can tow it by tying it right to the pushpit... it looks silly but it works.

In a boat that small, I would suggest buying a cheaper inflatable and carrying small battery charged pump to inflate it at the end of the day when it is time to go to shore. That is what has worked best for us. When you are sailing across the straight in a small boat at 4-5 knots, 1-2 knots for a towed dinghy is a big sacrifice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I spoke with the surveyor yesterday - he said results would be ready Tuesday, in our hands by Thursday. I also spoke with Westland Insurance yesterday - unfortunately, they weren't able to give me a quote - or even an estimate - without all of the info (I grumble, but it makes sense.) They were incredibly concerned about the age of the boat - she seems concerned about even getting insurance on a boat that old! Which really surprises me. Do you know anyone who has come up against that before? And without insurance - no moorage (again, a perfectly logical business decision.) We're both quite comfortable walking away from this deal if there are big problems. What concerns me is that the surveyor is not an insurance broker - he's not going to be able to say whether we'll be able to insure her. I don't want to be stuck with a boat I can't insure, and therefore can't keep anywhere. I guess just deal with it when it comes up. Argh.

As for the dinghy, we may have to accept keeping something rolled up below decks if only as a ditch boat. The boy disagrees, but I'm really not interested in losing 2 knots on a long crossing.
 

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... I also spoke with Westland Insurance ... They were incredibly concerned about the age of the boat - she seems concerned about even getting insurance on a boat that old! Which really surprises me. Do you know anyone who has come up against that before? And without insurance - no moorage ..
You can make your offer contingent on getting insurance coverage, just as you would make it conditional to a satisfactory survey, or finding moorage, or satisfactory seatrial..... Of course it's up to the seller if he/she wants to accept this subjects....

Once the survey is in hand it's typically quite fast to get insurance, usually a phone call (agent to the carrier) and a signature. This can't be a big issue.. plenty of early 70s boats in marinas and they all must be insured (though it's the liability insurance they're most concerned about).
 

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Serah,
I got worried too when I first approached our normal insurance broker and they turned us down. They only take the really low risk customers and since it was our first boat we did not fit their profile. They suggested Dolphin Insurance who specialize in marine policies. Had no trouble there. You can even apply online and they have a Vancouver office. Never having made a claim I cannot comment on anything other than the ease of getting the policy.

Ken
(no affiliation with Dolphin or any known employee!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
So the saga continues!

The boy and I headed over to the Island (again) for the survey this Saturday morning. Met up with the current owner and the surveyor, and all four of us went over every inch of the boat. I'll have the full results back on Thursday, but in short he said we're getting a lot of boat for a rock-bottom price - always good to hear! She's in good shape, though she is still a boat from the early 70s, with all that that entails. I took tons of pictures but won't have them 'til tomorrow - will post - I promise!

After digging into his network of surveyors, he could only find a bit more about her than what we had. Apparently, these were Canadian made boats, out of Richmond BC, built from 1971 to 1972, under the name of Swift-Sure (not one word.) Again, even after more Google digging, I'm still not finding much.

Concerns -
*Gas tank stored in lazarette
*Portable propane tanks stored in lazarette
*Delamination in forward deck - he feels it should be a fairly easy repair (drill holes when it's hot out, let dry for a week or so, epoxy the holes, and repaint. I'll be looking into how to do this in the next couple of months)
*Elevated moisture in a few spots on the hull and on the transom
*Hull blisters - though there are quite a few, all are still quite small (nickel sized at most), and though will require a weekend of grinding at a future haul-out, are to be expected on a boat this old.
*Engine isn't running as smoothly as it did last weekend. (it's a mid-90s 8hp mercury, and needs at the very least new spark plugs and a thermostat)

We didn't get out for a full sea trial, as it was really blowing when we were down at the docks. That will be the final condition of sale, as well as securing insurance.

There are a lot of projects to do - we priced the essentials out, and we figure probably an extra $500 to get her safe to take home (new battery, engine parts, sounder) and another $1000 for odds and sods to make her comfortable (stove/heater, charger, shore power etc.) over the next two years.

So now, we wait. We should have the surveyor's report by Thursday. If all goes to plan, we'll have insurance confirmed for Friday or early next week. As much as we'd like to have a full weekend to work on her before we run her the 60 some-odd nm home, I'm not sure how it will work out. The current owner needs the slip as soon as possible, so we can't leave her there for any longer than another two weeks.

I have nothing but praise for Arthur of Land's End Surveyors - if anyone is looking for a surveyor out of Saanich, or anywhere in Victoria, I would highly recommend him! He was very thorough, and pointed out how to fix even the cosmetic repairs. Above and beyond what we expected.
 

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Well, that's sounding pretty good... but the soft deck repair, while doable, is not quite as simplistic as described, and may take more than a week to "dry out". There is some debate whether the "drill and inject" method is all that foolproof or guaranteed. But that's all for another day.

At around $2K your getting into this game at a low price. (but that's only the beginning, as you well know!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
I fully agree that the deck is not going to be a simple project. My sincere apologies in advance as I'm sure that I'll be back here cursing the day we chose to buy a boat that we knew required some fairly substantial glass work. Even in the peak of summer in Vancouver, I don't know what the chances of a completely dry week or more are going to be. Something's telling me we'll be ripping up a good chunk of the deck. *sigh* At the end of the day, this is the boy's boat more than it is mine - he has his heart set, and despite my rather vocal protestations about the state of the deck, he doesn't seem concerned. Oh, shall I rue this day...

Are there ever any repairs on a boat that are as simple as they appear? Isn't the rough rule of thumb you'll spend double what you thought, and easily double the time?

The plan is to love her, and put a lot of time into her, though keep a hard cap of $2000 on what we'll put into her (at least for things that we can't take when we sell her again in about two years, which the surveyor was pretty confident we should be able to do for $4000 or so. Not that I would ever even dream of making money off selling a boat. ;) ) Either way, it's certainly not breaking the bank, and we'll learn a hell of a lot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Was just reminded earlier - all of her sails seem to have been replaced with sails from a Thunderbird, complete with sail # 19611 (IIRC) They look to be in great shape, with no tears or even worn through stitching. A jib, a genoa that looks huge (won't know % 'til we have it up when it's not blowing 30kts), two spinnakers, and the main. No storm jib though...
 

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Allow me to be the first to say "congratulations!" (I am taking the safe gamble that the sale will go through). I think you are making a rather good move; keeping it small and not over extending yourself. The bigger challenge is next year, when he has full on two-footitis (or perhaps even ten-footitis in a severe case) and you have to bring him back to reality (I have a bad case of it right now).

Are there ever any repairs on a boat that are as simple as they appear? Isn't the rough rule of thumb you'll spend double what you thought, and easily double the time?
Well, changing the main halyard was simpler than I expected :p
 

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Serah, congratulations on what sounds like a vessel that will give you tons of hours of great sailing, as well as tons of hours of, um, very rewarding time on the hard!

At some point all of us PNWers with cheap 70s boats should have a cheap-70s-boat get-together.
 

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So the saga continues!

The boy and I headed over to the Island (again) for the survey this Saturday morning. Met up with the current owner and the surveyor, and all four of us went over every inch of the boat. I'll have the full results back on Thursday, but in short he said we're getting a lot of boat for a rock-bottom price - always good to hear! She's in good shape, though she is still a boat from the early 70s, with all that that entails. I took tons of pictures but won't have them 'til tomorrow - will post - I promise!

After digging into his network of surveyors, he could only find a bit more about her than what we had. Apparently, these were Canadian made boats, out of Richmond BC, built from 1971 to 1972, under the name of Swift-Sure (not one word.) Again, even after more Google digging, I'm still not finding much.

Concerns -
*Gas tank stored in lazarette
*Portable propane tanks stored in lazarette
Both of these can be solved by making a fuel/LPG locker, although, ABYC probably would frown upon storing the two in a single compartment. :)

*Delamination in forward deck - he feels it should be a fairly easy repair (drill holes when it's hot out, let dry for a week or so, epoxy the holes, and repaint. I'll be looking into how to do this in the next couple of months)
Bad idea.... generally a much better idea, although more work, is to cut away the top layer of laminate and re-core the area. In the long run, it will produce a much better and stronger repair if done properly.
*Elevated moisture in a few spots on the hull and on the transom
If the hull and transom aren't cored, this may be due to osmosis, given the blisters on the hull. If the hull is cored, this may be a big problem. I don't believe the Swiftsure had a cored hull though.

*Hull blisters - though there are quite a few, all are still quite small (nickel sized at most), and though will require a weekend of grinding at a future haul-out, are to be expected on a boat this old.
You really need to dry the hull thoroughly before attempting to repair these. Also, barrier coating the boat at that time would probably be a really good idea. I like Interprotect 2000E. :)
*Engine isn't running as smoothly as it did last weekend. (it's a mid-90s 8hp mercury, and needs at the very least new spark plugs and a thermostat)
Clean the carburetor as well.

We didn't get out for a full sea trial, as it was really blowing when we were down at the docks. That will be the final condition of sale, as well as securing insurance.

There are a lot of projects to do - we priced the essentials out, and we figure probably an extra $500 to get her safe to take home (new battery, engine parts, sounder) and another $1000 for odds and sods to make her comfortable (stove/heater, charger, shore power etc.) over the next two years.

So now, we wait. We should have the surveyor's report by Thursday. If all goes to plan, we'll have insurance confirmed for Friday or early next week. As much as we'd like to have a full weekend to work on her before we run her the 60 some-odd nm home, I'm not sure how it will work out. The current owner needs the slip as soon as possible, so we can't leave her there for any longer than another two weeks.

I have nothing but praise for Arthur of Land's End Surveyors - if anyone is looking for a surveyor out of Saanich, or anywhere in Victoria, I would highly recommend him! He was very thorough, and pointed out how to fix even the cosmetic repairs. Above and beyond what we expected.
Good luck and congratulations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Thanks for the congratulations and support! I love the idea of a 70s-era small boat rendezvous!

As you can tell we've already succumbed to a case of 2ft-itis. As we went from wanting a 20' to (nearly) buying a 24', can we just say that we both had a case of it to make up for the extra 2'? I've held my other -itis (cc-itis in this case - my 49 cc scooter, Piglet, just isn't doing it for me anymore. I'm coveting a Honda Hawk CB400) at bay for a while, but we'll see. One simply can't live with two cases of upgrade-itis - one will have to lose :( We're only planning on keeping this one for about two years, when we'll move either to the 27' range, or right up to a 35' liveaboard.

The surveyors recommendation for the gas tank was simply to strap it to the front of the cockpit, and build a semi-permanent stair over top of it. I'm really not keen on this (not least because we now have a fuel line running the length of the cockpit. Guaranteed someone is going to kick or pull on it, spewing fuel everywhere, and possibly losing power in a sketchy situation) I think we'll be adding some sort of fuel locker in the aft starboard lazarette. This is not my area of expertise, so does anyone have any good sources on how to do this?

How do others store portable LPG tanks?

As for the deck, striping the top layer and completely redoing it seems like a better, if more tedious approach. The deck is bare where it's delaminated at least - no hatches or such to mess about with, though some of the stanchions, and possibly the pulpit may have to come off. Can this be done while she's afloat, or do we need to be on the hard? We may end up doing this sooner than expected, as the forward cleat (used for mooring, as well as everything else!) seems dangerously close to the delamination. IIRC, it was still solid there, but I will certainly be doing some poking about.

Total newb question - but how does one tell if the hull is cored? The surveyor said that the high moisture levels corresponded with (I think) the lazarettes, or somewhere else that a bit of water had pooled. He didn't seem concerned, or it may just have been that there's not much that can be done... She is an old(er) lady, afterall. Is there anything that can be done about this? Is it a safety concern? Apart from resaleability, how much should I *really* care? I read SailingDogs' boat inspection tips, which gave me the impression that if there's a high moisture rating, to simply run away. I know many will say I am insane for buying a boat I know is wet. How unrealistic am I being saying that we'll haul, dry, grind, epoxy (barrier coat?) and repaint the hull in a weekend? How long will it take for her to dry out? I assume this can't be done in a weekend. We're planning on keeping her in the water year round, and at least doing a bit of winter sailing. Would hauling for a week suffice?

(sorry for the plethora of questions!)
 
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