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The word chain plate is probably used because a short piece of chain was attached to it and stays are connected to this chain.

Does anybody know why chain is used?
 

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The word chain plate is probably used because a short piece of chain was attached to it and stays are connected to this chain.

Does anybody know why chain is used?
before the age of wire rope, they used chain between the dead eyes and chain plates. Chain was the only 'most reliable' thing on a boat that was made to hold the rig in place.
 

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before the age of wire rope, they used chain between the dead eyes and chain plates. Chain was the only 'most reliable' thing on a boat that was made to hold the rig in place.
So Rich, now someone is going to ask, "What's a dead eye?" That would lead to another wood discussion about the best species for this forgotten piece of very effective sailboat hardware. (I'm suggesting Locust, not a wood often mentioned often in boat construction:) Personally I think we should all go back to dead eyes:D
 
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Wooden Ship-Building By Charles Desmond is a good source for illustrations of dead-eyes and chainplates.
 

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(I'm suggesting Locust, not a wood often mentioned often in boat construction:) Personally I think we should all go back to dead eyes:D
When wire rigging is entirely replaced by dyneema, amsteel, etc in the future, dead-eyes made from 'a polymer' will most probably reappear ... theyre so damn easy to use. :)
 

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was about to say...we are seing this already...traditional hardware in new materials...
 

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When wire rigging is entirely replaced by dyneema, amsteel, etc in the future, dead-eyes made from 'a polymer' will most probably reappear ... theyre so damn easy to use. :)
They are already here. But in anodized aluminium rather than polymers. The weight savings of the polymer is marginal if any, and the aluminium lasts much longer in UV.

Frankly I think we are at the end of wire rigging. Sure it will go on for a number of years, but at this point I wouldn't rig anything with it. For most boats dyneema, for the rest carbon fiber rod. And wire no longer has a place on boats anywhere buy electrical wire.
 

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Maybe this is a thread hijack . . . . . . .

How does Dyneema compare to SS wire size for size, strength for strength, cost for cost?

In other words, what Dyneema would replace 10mm 1x19 SS wire?

And can dummies splice/swage/attach Dyneema easily? Is there a "Sta-Loc" for Dyneema?

I'm contemplating a full standing rigging replacement and I believe there is a significant weight saving using Dyneema. But I've been using SS wire or rod for 45 years and to change to "rope" is something of a wrench.;)
 

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It would be very nice to use Dyneema/Amsteel for standing rigging. I considered it when replacing it a couple of years ago but that nagging vulnerability that rope can be cut by a sharp knife, dissuaded me from using Dyneema. The strength and stretch factors are the same as wire but the "cut" factor is not. I did use Dyneema to replace the lifelines and for running backstays for my storm rig. Splicing in eyes with heavy duty thimbles make the ends of Dyneema very easy to do. I used regular s.s. turnbuckles for the runners but would really like to try using deadeyes.
 

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hear me out here...

what if you have a metal covering OVER the dyneema....like a sheathe that would protect from chafe...cuts, etc...it can be lose fitting, doesnt have to be real thick...

doesnt have to be metal, just something that could proptect against cuts, and sharp objects...

best of both worlds?
 

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Maybe this is a thread hijack . . . . . . .

How does Dyneema compare to SS wire size for size, strength for strength, cost for cost?

In other words, what Dyneema would replace 10mm 1x19 SS wire?

And can dummies splice/swage/attach Dyneema easily? Is there a "Sta-Loc" for Dyneema?

I'm contemplating a full standing rigging replacement and I believe there is a significant weight saving using Dyneema. But I've been using SS wire or rod for 45 years and to change to "rope" is something of a wrench.;)
NOTE - general dyneema is not sutable for standing rigging. An annealed type of dyneema called Dynex Duc is used instead.

1) size for size Duc is stronger, and costs less. It also weighs about 1/7 what steel does.
2) strength for strength however is the wrong comparison. Duc suffers from creep which steel doesn't so it must be engineered differently to control creep not provide minimum strength. Standing rigging is typically engineered to control creep to .1"/year.
3) to size Duc in general requires either staying the same size or going up on size. It depends on where you fall between the strength of the line to know for sure.
4) it is easily spliced with a simple fid, or a piece of wire. No sta-loca are required. In fact of all the line I have spliced Duc/dyneema is by far the easiest stuff I have ever worked with.

Ya making the switch is a little uncomfortable. Just because it is so different than what people are used to. My recomendation if the rigging replacement isn't critical, is to buy some amsteel and splice up some new lifelines. This will give you some experience playing with the stuff. Then call John at Colligio marine about doing standing rigging.

It is perfectly possible to do it yourself, but John really designed the systems, and while it will cost more for him to do it than to diy he also has the engineering to ensure the sizeing is done correctly. The one thing I disagree with him on is that I still like turnbuckles to tune the rig and prefers to use deadeyes. But it's really a personal choice.
 

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I've made deadeyes from Yew, arbutus and apple. Apple is the best local wood. Most of Thane's deadeyes were salvaged lignum vitae deadeyes from an old Bering Sea sealer.(I was led to them by the Pilot of the Pinta, but that's another story. Most vessel's deadeyes are too small because the skipper cheaped out and the metal work atrocious for the same reason. Easy to make on a lathe ; I think still available in Lunenburg by an old timer. Get to know Mathew Walker. He still watching and judging. Full of tips and howtos if anybody is seriously interested.
 

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NOTE - general dyneema is not sutable for standing rigging. An annealed type of dyneema called Dynex Duc is used instead.

1) size for size Duc is stronger, and costs less. It also weighs about 1/7 what steel does.
2) strength for strength however is the wrong comparison. Duc suffers from creep which steel doesn't so it must be engineered differently to control creep not provide minimum strength. Standing rigging is typically engineered to control creep to .1"/year.
3) to size Duc in general requires either staying the same size or going up on size. It depends on where you fall between the strength of the line to know for sure.
4) it is easily spliced with a simple fid, or a piece of wire. No sta-loca are required. In fact of all the line I have spliced Duc/dyneema is by far the easiest stuff I have ever worked with.

Ya making the switch is a little uncomfortable. Just because it is so different than what people are used to. My recomendation if the rigging replacement isn't critical, is to buy some amsteel and splice up some new lifelines. This will give you some experience playing with the stuff. Then call John at Colligio marine about doing standing rigging.

It is perfectly possible to do it yourself, but John really designed the systems, and while it will cost more for him to do it than to diy he also has the engineering to ensure the sizing is done correctly. The one thing I disagree with him on is that I still like turnbuckles to tune the rig and prefers to use deadeyes. But it's really a personal choice.
I suspect splicing the stuff is a little like the old ski rope - the line is hollow braid and you simply stuff the end into the standing part for 10 or 12 inches and it never comes loose.

How do you tension a rig using dead-eyes? Maybe my mental picture of a dead-eye is wrong. I visualise a round bobbin made of aluminium that has the Dyneema spliced into a trough/groove around the outside with a pigtail through the middle. Still doesn't tell me how to connect it to the boat. Turnbuckles work for my mental picture.

I'm reasonably sure that John would probably charge quite a lot to do a boat in New Zealand :) but I suppose there are riggers here who rigged the AC72s for Team NZ, they could probably manage my boat.

Also the cut-resistance is a worry if it's for the primary shrouds.

Unfortunately I can't practise on my life lines - I won't have any by the time we go cruising - installing solid rails all round. ;)
 

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Here's a website with some good pix of some new style, metal dead eyes. Gotta try this.
ALMOST! | Bristol Channel Cutter "Shanti"

Most of the pictures I've seen of old wood deadeyes had the bitter end side half hitched above the top eye, also larkshead hitches. This seems like the logical way to do it.
 

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so I saw some pics of rubber sheathing to protect the dux stuff...not a bad solution really...saw a racing boat do this for their backstay...I was thinking of something stronger

the issue seems that so far there are no REAL long term reviews and most riggers are saying 5 years lifetimes to be in the safe side

so thats HALF the usual ss wire lifespan and well lets not even talk about how long galvanised stuff lasts! jajaja

I do love the idea though
 

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Omatako,

1) it is almost exactly like the old ski rope. For standing rigging it is generally brummel end in place, but a tapered bury and lock stitch also are acceptable. The primary difference with Duc is that Duc is much stiffer. Because of the annealing process it will actually self support a couple of feet.

2) take a look at Smurphy's link to see them. The rigging is tightened by lashings, which do work well on small boats, I don't like them on larger boats since I like higher repeat ability. If going with turnbuckles, then just a sailmakers thimble will work (it's what I have on my trimaran).

3) to fly him down probably, to do the engineering just what he normally does.

4) how cut resistant do you need? This stuff isn't proof against someone who brings a knife and is trying to cut the shrouds, but then neither is wire. They can just undo the turnbuckle or use a hacksaw. Against anything but deliberate destruction it just isn't a worry, this stuff is incredibly hard to cut.

Most splicing shops that work with Duc are using ceramic knives or tin snips to cut the stuff, and even then will have to replace the knives regularly to keep them sharp enough to work. As an example, is a recent abrasion test they had to stop the test early because the dyneema rounded off the steel corner it was supposed to cut against before the line broke.


Christian,

It really looks like 7 years is a good service interval, but once the fittings are paid for the rope itself is the cheap part, and can be replaced in the field by anyone with a simple fid. on my boat for instance the rigging in total was about $1200, of which about $200 is line. So the life cycle cost is actually much lower.
 

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thats awesome I didnt know that...thats not bad at all I was just thinking in cruising terms were some sort of protection against hits and or extreme chafe or a cut could be prevented by using some sort of sheathing...maybe like a kevlar sheath or matrix of some sort of material

just thinking out loud here

someone else mentioned it I think a nice cruising setup would be to keep the turnbuckles just for simplicity sake...

anywhoo

thanks

ps what boat do yo have stumble if you dont mind?
 

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Literally 'learned the ropes' while as a volunteer aboard Penn.'s Brig. 'Niagara' in its refit in Philly..did you all know that real hemp is still being used in there standing and running riggings on these ship..
 

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Omatako,

1) it is almost exactly like the old ski rope. For standing rigging it is generally brummel end in place, but a tapered bury and lock stitch also are acceptable. The primary difference with Duc is that Duc is much stiffer. Because of the annealing process it will actually self support a couple of feet.

2) take a look at Smurphy's link to see them. The rigging is tightened by lashings, which do work well on small boats, I don't like them on larger boats since I like higher repeat ability. If going with turnbuckles, then just a sailmakers thimble will work (it's what I have on my trimaran).
Yes, looking at that it is almost exactly like ski rope so that makes it easy to replace "out there" (and easy to store spare line) which is a very good attribute. I'm not a fan of the tensioning method, especially when the tail needs to be knotted off in some way. I know that knotting ordinary plastic ski rope is near impossible and I reckon this product would be harder. So turnbuckles for me.

And the cut resistance issue sounds like a non-event.

Thanks for the background - I'm seriously going to consider this choice when I re-rig.

Oh, and apologies to the OP for stealing your thread.
 

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thats awesome I didnt know that...thats not bad at all I was just thinking in cruising terms were some sort of protection against hits and or extreme chafe or a cut could be prevented by using some sort of sheathing...maybe like a kevlar sheath or matrix of some sort of material

just thinking out loud here

someone else mentioned it I think a nice cruising setup would be to keep the turnbuckles just for simplicity sake...

anywhoo

thanks

ps what boat do yo have stumble if you dont mind?
Dyneema which is the root material of Duc is actually more cut resistant than Kevlar. The best chaff material I know if is actually the dyneema chaff guard (mind think by NER). It's pretty easy to apply as well. The annealing process makes it even harder to cut... Again it is certainly doable with a knife, but it isn't something that will happen by accident.

And even assuming substantial chaff, the damage is visible long before it's a problem. Since the Duc is generally twice the strength of the steel it replaces, you can fully cut half the stands before you get back to the original strength of the stainless wire.


Christian,

I have a few, or to be precise the family owns a few. We own them all collectively. Right now....

1) Bluewater 5800
2) Beneteau 381
3) Twin Vee 26
4) Twin Vee 24
5) Corsair Sprint 750
6) J-22
7) two inflatable dinks
8) one sailing dink

Probably a few more small boats lying around if I looked hard.
 
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