[fando]

Hi

We are completely new to this site and in reality to sailing. Our plan is to learn to sail, buy a yacht and sail around the world for a few years. We are hoping to start this adventure in around 6 months and so we are now seeking as much advise as possible. We have sailed on yachts before and one of us crewed a long passage but overall we really are quite clueless so please bear with us.

We believe that an appropriate CIRCUM yacht to be handled by a young inexperienced couple would be around 40ft - 45ft and after some back and forth have decided its probably best to learn, provision and set sail from the UK (as opposed to NZ being our other option). Any thoughts on UK v NZ. Based on our estimated monthly running costs (being USD 4k PCM - does this sound reasonable?), we will have around USD 225k for the yacht itself (including fit out, insurance, provision etc).

Basically through looking at pictures and reading articles we are trying to work out what type of yacht is best for us given our budget. Our latest preference is something like a Sun Odyssey 42DS (2006), but we are really keen to hear comments as to the suitabilty of this yacht compared to other Jeanneaus. We like the light the DS provides and also the 2 cabin version. We have also looked a few Benneteaus, Hunters, Dufours, i.e. production line boats. Would appreciate any feedback from people who don't just have to rely on pictures.

Naturally we need to learn to sail before we cast off and so we have been looking at various courses. The 14 week yachtmater course looks pretty comprehensive but reasonably costly at around GBP 7K + per head. Should we buy our own yacht and then try and find an expert who would be willing to teach us over a couple of months or would a structured course be best. Either way any info on both options appreciated.

Many thanks for your time.

FANDO

 

[Capt.Fred]

phew!!! Somebody please try to answer these naivxxx nice folks. I would suggest, to start. just build an entire boat.Thata way you can repair most things. Also, You might consider chartering a circumnavigation. OK guys take it from there.

"It is better to be a has been than a never has been"

 

[kairetu]

It's good that you're asking. It's good that you know that you don't know. But a few observations: buying a boat for long distance cruising is about how the boat handles weather and water and how practical it is for stowage, fuel range, etc. It's not about liking the light or the interior. That's marina stuff. I have met a few people who have fast tracked a yachtmaster and I wouldn't trust them on a watch alone. 14 weeks to yachtmaster is far too short. I guess my own view is that there is no short cut. Sailing can be dangerous and suitable preparation is vital. But knowing that you don't know is a good first step.

 

[Faster]

You are asking the right questions... my advice would be to not set a timetable. And don't be in a rush. Spending 3-5 years learning to sail, learning whichever boat you buy, cruising coastally will help prepare you for offshore, but even then there will be things you maybe never thought about til you're out there.

You do have a reasonable budget, I think, but the mainstream production boats you mention are not likely to be on anyone's "prime offshore/bluewater boats" (btw here's a thread that lists such favoured designs)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...fshore-cruising-boat-list-january-2008-a.html

. I'd start looking at a Passport 40/44/47 and similar boats if I were you. Also wouldn't put 100% stock in any 'fast tracked' courses.. by all means study navigation, radio, lifesaving etc but there's nothing like experience and having some experience before taking these courses will help you get a better perspective and more out of them.

Good luck.

 

[Capt.Fred]

I'm sorry, I can't help butting in again , but Fando's dream got my juices going. With that kind of $, and I were 40 years younger, I would buy me a couple acres in the country, fairly close to some funky boat yards in a nice climate. Hype my beautiful wife, buy an old Airstream, put up a 50'x60' air conditioned (geothermal) metal building. Put the Airstream inside, live a life similar space wise as a boat. I would buy a blue water fibreglass hull of my dreams and go to work. Make sure the work area dust is completely vented to the outside.
Good cheer and good luck, what fun!

"It is better to be a has been than a never has been."

 

[fando]

Thanks for your comments. Safety is naturally the number one priority, for which we will endeavour to minimise the inherent risk that comes with sailing. Any significant passage crossings we will enlist qualified friends to assist in skippering the yacht. Interesting that you believe the yachtmaster fast track courses add limited value.

Captain Fred - as to building an entire yacht, although I appreciate your point about being in a better position to repair it, given my skills, I believe I would be better off buying one built by experts.

All advice appreciated.

FANDO

 

[johnshasteen]

FANDO, your plans are admirable, but naive. It takes a year to learn how to sail and five years to become a sailor.
Long before you head out into the blue you have to know your boat inside and out and know how to fix everything that can go wrong - because it will. You can go to all the sailing classes you can afford, but what are you going to do the first time you are caught in a major storm and your dream boat is knocked down to spreaders in the water and rounds back up with the main torn and hung up in the spreaders, cockpit filled with water and draining slowly, 1/2 of the water coursing down your companionway steps and across your cabin sole filling your bilge and soaking all the stuff that got dumped onto the sole while you were sideways?
Don't think that can happen? It can and does. Go to the BFS thread and read some of the disasters - many in protected waters. It's all part of the sailing dream.

 

[sailortjk1]

Complete Novice and Circumnavigate do not belong in the same sentence;
It takes many years of experience to be able to do and very few actually accomplish.
Buy your boat and go sailing for a long time, and than decide if you are up to it.

 

[fando]

We do plan to sail around the MED for a year + before making an ocean crossing to the the Caribbean (for which we would invite / pay for a qualifed skipper to lead the way). Also one of us has crossed the Pacific before albeit part of a 4 man crew. Even given our slow and ocean accompanied passages - are our plans still deemed unrealistic and foolhardy? Thanks

 

[n0w0rries]

Long time boater, first time sailor. I bought a 27' Catalina to learn on. I think you should change your goal. Plan on sailing around the med or wherever for a year. Buy a boat for that purpose--instead of circumnavigating.

Then after your done with local cruising, consider circumnavigating. You'll know if you can handle it, and you'll know what you like and don't like in a boat. They're all different. When you get time on the water you will figure out what features you like, and which ones you don't. You can sell your local cruiser and upgrade to something more suitable for heavy weather, but you'll have a much better time identifying features that are really important to you.

No amount of googling or classroom teaching can replace time on the water.

 

[chris_gee]

Sailing around the world falls into the grand idea class.
Okay you can, but in translating the idea to the fact, I tend to look at the steps on takes. Many say I know nothing about it so tell me all I need to know. Maybe doing a little research first might help - there are even books.
I don't think you are quite that bad.
1. The fast track course will teach you a lot. However learning with a crew and instructor doesn't give you experience. Even getting out of a dock is not always easy, let alone going through heavy weather shorthanded.
2. Being a crew on a passage doesn't count for much. For a start there is the prep, planning, other crew, and lack of responsibility. The ocean passages may be less difficult than coastal, particularly on chosen routes and times.
3. It sounds like a year in the med is to build experience. Okay but I suspect you would not be heading there both for weather windows and getting off the ground til next summer, then heading off again around December.
4. From NZ you head off in around May. In either case it would be impossible or very difficult, to do your course, find a boat, bring it up to scratch, have familiarisation and shakedowns in that time. Add a year.
5 You could buy in the US. Do you want to do a circumnavigation, a half, or cruise a while? Where do you want to go and why? One couple's interest in landfalls appeared to be booze and McDonalds.
6. The boats don't really sound like blue water cruisers. 36-38 is probably adequate for a couple.
7. You can start on a plan, building some seatime, and testing things and yourselves out. Yes it can be done, but quite a few abandon the dream after a month or so and their first passage.

 

[Schmacko]

Get Out There

As a relatively new poster to this forum I would like to answer your question by making some "one liner" observations of life.
Can you navigate safely....I learnt before GPS in aviation using DR, electronic and then GPS....practice until you can position yourself at any time of the day or night.
Systems....learn your boats systems elec, mech, rigging, structure etc. a lot of boat owners have no idea how their boat's systems work.
Seamanship....learn it, practice it....get out on the water and see how stupid some boat owners can be.
Charts....carry them always and study them before you sail, create a "navigation worksheet" no matter how short or long the distance it is good practice for the longer trips. How often do you read about experienced people hitting things.
Did I say get out there and do it.
Sailing....It's simple stuff, learn your sails, how they work, shapes, reefing, reefing and reefing....listen and feel your boat it alone will tell you how it likes your sail plan. There are a lot of people out there who have no idea, but equally there a lot who are extremely good at it.
Engines and charging systems....study and learn to repair them....pamper them....they are extremely important to your survival and more importantly to your ability to get out of situations that you have created.
Did I say get out there and do it.
Weather....study it learn how to interperate it, weather can cause you a lot of grief, sometimes its your own fault sometimes its not.
Boat....learn your boat, when its happy and when its not, have sympathy with your boat, understand how it works....you don't need to build it to know how to repair it....but know how it works
Communicate....learn how to use your radios they can save your life.
Did I say get out there and do it.
There are a lot of people who will tell you how hard things are whether it be developing personal skills, flying, working or sailing....but I believe in some basic principles of life an one of them is "Never tell a digger how to do it, always show him"....rehearse lifes events....(a digger is an Australian soldier)
Talk to the boat owners down at the marina see what boats they are happy with....see what boats are currently sailing the open waters and that will narrow your search down.
Take small steps to start off with, get out there and make mistakes, find out where your own personal limits are and then by doing this you will become a proficient sailor.
From both flying and sailing some of the most stupid things I have seen have been from so called experienced operators.
"Have sympathy or be in harmony with the machine that you are operating"
Self preservation will generally tell you where the limits are.

Go and do it

Schmacko meekly retires to do the dishes.

 

[soulfinger]

A lot of nice discussion, but I just want to applaud you for having the resources and the will to go for it. Cruising the med for a year will be more adventure that most people could ever even dream of. At the end of that, if you still thirst for more adventure, you'll know what to do.

 

[wind_magic]

I don't have the kind of experience to give advice on something like circumnavigation, but I have enough experience that I can write my own opinion and pretend it is important.

From my own experience so far the hard thing is changing the way you live which takes a lot of time, effort, and commitment. When you first start thinking about living on a boat for long periods of time, it seems easy enough, get some solar panels instead of grid power, use a dinghy instead of a car, cook instead of eating out, etc, but the devil is in the details. It is all of the very personal habits such as washing clothing, cooking enough food to keep your strength up, etc, that you have to change that are so challenging.

I'll give you a good example - this year I went without air conditioning. Seems like a simple thing, right ? If you have been living with air conditioning for most of your life let me tell you just what a PITA living without it can be. During the hottest parts of the year your motivation drops to about zero, especially for tasks that require a lot of concentration and focus, it is just very hard to focus with beads of sweat dripping into your eyes and down your neck, and the temperature is like that sometimes during the summer. Your entire schedule changes, you start doing more in the early morning and evening and do less during the hottest parts of the day. You start inventing new ways to stay cool, using solar power and lots of fans for example. This one simple little thing, no air conditioning, can change your whole life around, and that is just one little thing that most people have to change in their lives to live on a boat for extended periods of time.

Buying the boat and "gearing up" just doesn't get it done.

 

[Sandflea]

Truth is, alot of people here tend to freak out at the word "circumnavigate", especially when people like you and me say it before or after we tell of our lack of sailing experience. Honestly, they should.
I have the same dream when I retire from the Army in 5 years, but it's not like I'm just gonna buy a sloop, fill it with bottled water and beef jerky and cross the Atlantic 2 weeks after I take my uniform off. I have 5 years to plan and budget, then I will attend ASA 101 through 108 courses and then I will buy a boat. At that point I will start gaining experience by refitting and repairing her myself, then take her out a little further each day or week.
The point I am rambling to is, awesome dream you have, baby step it into reality. Forget the grand time line.
The only time line I am sticking to is my separation from the Army and the completion of the ASA courses. After that it will take however long to know my boat, be skillful and prepared enough to tackle circumnavigating our little blue ball.
Until then I can live the dream by watching this guy...
Bigoceans | Tiny Boat
Keep your dream alive and don't rush into it, let it happen naturally by doing all the not so little stuff that leads to it. Thats the real adventure. My 2 cents anyway...

Take Care!
Ben

 

[Yorksailor]

Fando has a dream and he is approaching it in a responsible manner. Fast track courses serve a valuable purpose and will give Fando an excellent base from which to learn and put him way ahead of 95% of the people I meet on their circumnavigations and you meet a lot in Trinidad and Grenada waiting out hurricane season.

As long as he gets good advise and not insulting pontification as he got from a few posters he will work things out. I know that from another forum he got good advise about large windows and now knows that they are not a good idea on cruising boats.

Phil

 

[Capt.Fred]

If you have a dream and the more knowledge you acquire about it, leads to deeper longing & love for your dream, then my friend, you are on your way. Don't be discouraged by others opinions. The joy you will have someday looking back is immeasurable. You are a single unique human being. Some of us are always wannabees, gonnabees or neverwillbees, well I'm one of those hasbees and at 75, very happy for it.

 

[Yorksailor]

Sandflea, if you are ever in Miami you can get free sailing and 2 days of free lessons. Military Outreach.

Or check CGSC Message Board "Military outreach goes international" We call all visiting military ships and offer free sailing to the crew.

 

[wind_magic]

As long as he gets good advise and not insulting pontification as he got from a few posters he will work things out.

I think you're being too sensitive. When I read this comment I thought, what is this guy/gal talking about ? So I went back and I only see one post that could be considered discouraging, and that poster came back with two other posts to clarify his position. Overall most of the posts in this thread just say that the original poster should consider getting very familiar with the boat's systems before setting out, gain experience on more localized trips before taking on the world, and my own post that focused on making changes such as washing clothing on board instead of focusing on the seamanship aspects of the discussion. I just don't see what the big deal is, or why you felt you needed to chastise everybody in the thread. Personally I like that people speak their mind in this forum, it is what I always liked about it, I'd be disappointed if it turned into a Hello Kitty forum where all the ladies just come out and say oh wow that's great you're a novice and you're going to sail around the world, you go! You can do it!!! We have faith in you!! The world has too much of that bullsh#t in it already, empty encouragement like that doesn't help anything.

 

[lancelot9898]

Just follow your dreams Fando and take all the "advice" that you get with a hugh grain of salt. Even mine.

I consider the weak link in any sail to be the human being rather than the boat. However, I would want a boat which will heave to under severe weather and not require active sailing. I'm not sure as to how a fin keel will heave to so that type of boat would not be on my list. I have owned my Tayana 37 for over 20 years now and have sailed in some pretty severe weather and anchored out during a Cat 1 hurricane. Not something that I would do again even though even if the anchor failed the shoreline was mud and not rock so there was no danger to life. Another consideration is that wind does not sink boats but waves can. If you read about rogue waves that may give you some pause, but again the challenge of the situation is what it may be about for you. I lived aboard my boat for most of the twenty years and I would routinely take the boat out for day sails etc while most liveaboards would stay at dock for most if not all of the season. Even some world cruisers who stayed at the dock during the summer would not go out on beautiful days. One fellow from NZ said that he hardly ever touched the wheel when on a passage and left the sailing to the autopilot.

It's what you feel comfortable with and you never ever know it all. Many people have sailed oceans with far less experience than you and have survived. Look at some of the kids that have done it and not to mention some of the people in by gone days without auto pilots and GPS and engines. It's the challenge that makes life interesting.