SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
1 - 20 of 39 Posts

· Closet Powerboater
Joined
·
3,925 Posts
Reaction score
1,907
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now that my boat his home from the yard and tied up, I can start the process of making her habitable. First on the list (the heads already work) is running water. The tanks have some water left in them which has been there for at least 9 month, probably much longer. It sat in hot Florida and now through some time in the PNW. I'm assuming there's some growth of slimy stuff in the tanks and lines.

What shall I use to clean it out? I've used diluted bleach before, which worked well, but it tends to eat up the diaphragms of sureflow pumps in my experience. I was thinking of using a food grade brew sanitizer I have, but it's famous for foaming up, and would take forever to wash out all the foam...

Suggestions?

MedSailor
 

· Barquito
Joined
·
3,954 Posts
Reaction score
1,134
From Peggie Hall, who does know what she is talking about:

"Although most people think only in terms of the tank, the plumbing is actually the source of most foul water, because the molds, mildew, fungi and bacteria which cause it thrive in damp dark places, not under water. Many people-and even some boat manufacturers-believe that keeping the tanks empty reduce the problem, but an empty water tank only provides another damp dark home for those "critters."

There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that's really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system-tank and plumbing. The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles (which includes boats). The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated.

Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete.

Icemakers should be left running to allow cleaning out of the water feed line; however the first two buckets of ice-the bucket generated during recommissioning and the first bucketful afterward--should be discarded.

1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/4 cup (2 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorite solution ). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity. (Simpler way to calculate: 1 quart bleach/50 gal water tank capacity)

2. Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain **** until air has been released and the entire system is filled. Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines

3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours.

4 Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat.

5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion.

6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water.

An annual or semi-annual recommissioning according to the above directions is all that should be necessary to keep your water tasting and smelling as good as anything that comes out of any faucet on land. If you need to improve on that, install a water filter. Just remember that a filter is not a substitute for cleaning out the system, and that filters require regular inspection and cleaning or replacement.
To keep the water system cleaner longer, use your fresh water...keep water flowing through system. The molds, fungi, and bacteria only start to grow in hoses that aren't being used. Before filling the tank each time, always let the dock water run for at least 15 minutes first...the same critters that like the lines on your boat LOVE the dock supply line and your hose that sit in the warm sun, and you certainly don't want to transfer water that's been sitting in the dock supply line to your boat's system. So let the water run long enough to flush out all the water that's been standing in them so that what goes into your boat is coming straight from the water main.

Finally, while the molds, fungi and bacteria in onboard water systems here in the US may not be pleasant, we're dealing only with aesthetics...water purity isn't an issue here--or in most developed nations...the water supply has already been purified (unless you're using well-water). However, when cruising out of the country, it's a good idea to know what you're putting in your tanks...and if you're in any doubt, boil all water that's to be drunk or used to wash dishes, and/or treat each tankful to purify. It's even more important in these areas to let the water run before putting it in the tank, because any harmful bacteria will REALLY proliferate in water hoses left sitting on the dock.
__________________
Peggie Hall--Specializing in marine sanitation since '87
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors-- A Guide to Marine Sanitation Systems & Other Sources of Aggravation"
What she said.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,665 Posts
Reaction score
238
I say go with bleach. You only need a couple ounces per gallon of water. Pump it through your water lines and then let it sit overnight and flush it out. After you flush the tanks a couple ot times, run a little white vinegar through to kill the bleach taste/smell.

Edit...Barquito beat me to it and Peggy knows what she is talking about.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,604 Posts
Reaction score
1,655
What she said.
Yup, that's been ANSI and WHO standard forever.

Prevention is the real cure; when you lay up the boat, MT the tanks and DRY the tank! You always wash the dishes before putting them away, right?

If the tank is stored dry all you need to do is fill it and bleed a little though the taps.
 

· Member
Joined
·
2,447 Posts
Reaction score
979
Prevention is the real cure
Everything Peggy said.

I take one extra precaution. All the water going into our tanks or that we use through our dockside hookup goes through an inline water filter. It's inexpensive and it makes a big difference in the water quality and taste. For $30 a year at the RV store it's inexpensive insurance.
 

· Closet Powerboater
Joined
·
3,925 Posts
Reaction score
1,907
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Sounds good. I've had good luck with bleach before. Has anyone else had it eat up the diaphragms from water pumps? Perhaps that wasn't what was eating them up after all, perhaps they were just wearing out when I was living aboard. Even if it does eat them, they're easy to replace.

MedSailor
 

· Registered
Joined
·
25,122 Posts
Reaction score
9,225
Pump diaphragms are a wear item. If you used diluted chlorine and didn't let it stand too long, I would not expect that to cause undue wear.

Not knowing how much stuff is growing in there, nor how it was maintained in the past, I would try to manual wash them out the first time. Do you have an access plate? If I was going to live aboard, I would seriously consider replacing the water hoses too. Not that expensive and they all eventually split anyway.
 

· SailNet Captain of the Month
Joined
·
6,082 Posts
Reaction score
4,468
Thanks for this Peggy (in absentia). Here's a question though:

My ship's water container is a single stainless steel 200 gallon tank. According to Peggy's directions this means I should pre-mix 40 gallons of the bleach/water solution. This is not an easy task. Does anyone have an alternative approach?

How dangerous is bleach to copper pipes (yes, we have copper) and a SS tank? Can partially fill my tank, then add the bleach (4 quarts according to Peggy's receipt), then fill my tank with water and follow her directions? I could even add a diluted bleach mix, but I just can't see how I can pre-mix 40 gallons in one go...

JimMcGee: What inline filter do you use?
 

· Member
Joined
·
2,447 Posts
Reaction score
979
JimMcGee: What inline filter do you use?
Hey Mike, I usually pick one up at the RV store at the beginning of each season. I've used the ShurFlor and the System IV brands. One or the other is usually on sale in the spring for around $25. I haven't seen a difference in performance or taste between these two.

I tried a less expensive filter from the camping section of a big box store ($19) and pulled it out after two weeks - the water tasted awful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MikeOReilly

· Registered
Joined
·
3,182 Posts
Reaction score
613
My water system has been in constant use for 4 years. Only used with clean municipal US water, and I always run the hose for a while before starting to fill. The water coming out of the taps looks, smells, and tastes fine.

Should I still do some kind of bleach flush? I haven't done one for 4 years. Is it necessary if the water seems fine?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,053 Posts
Reaction score
1,638
Thanks for this Peggy (in absentia). Here's a question though:

My ship's water container is a single stainless steel 200 gallon tank. According to Peggy's directions this means I should pre-mix 40 gallons of the bleach/water solution. This is not an easy task. Does anyone have an alternative approach?

How dangerous is bleach to copper pipes (yes, we have copper) and a SS tank? Can partially fill my tank, then add the bleach (4 quarts according to Peggy's receipt), then fill my tank with water and follow her directions? I could even add a diluted bleach mix, but I just can't see how I can pre-mix 40 gallons in one go...

JimMcGee: What inline filter do you use?
Mike
For a 200 gallon tank, the standard shock sanitization schedule using laundry grade (5%) Clorox would be ~80 ounces of Clorox per 200 gallons. Then a soak for one hour ... 2 hours Max. This would result in a chlorine concentration of ~10 parts per million chlorine, which is the standard dosage for municipal etc. water system sanitizing.
This is the dosage for a water system that does not contain any 'biofilm' (calcyx - a massive bacteria colony that is living on the walls of the tank and piping. A biofilm is denoted by simply wiping a finger on the internal surfaces ... if it feels slimy, thats a 'biofilm'). Open the water tank on any 'toilet' and feel the slime on the inside walls - biofilm.
If you denote any biofilm, a single shock sanitization will usually not be effective as chlorine does not penetrate down into the film, leaving viable bacteria below the killed/stunned surface layer. If biofilm, then you need to either open the tank and hand scrub OR repeat the shock sanitization several times (eg. - repeated over several days).
The one to two hour limit will not cause the onset of corrosion to the stainless steel (weld) surface; dwell time between repeated sanitizations will allow the stainless surface to migrate more chromium to the surface - which makes stainless ... stainless.

Most of what is being bantered about on the internet with respect to 'clorox' and water system sanitization is for NEW, never commissioned, or CLEAN water systems .... systems that do not have a developed biofilm. If there is a biofilm present, you should continue to repeat (with dwell time of days in between) sanitization until the biofilm is removed ... OR mechanically scrub the tank, etc. before 'sanitizing'.

For tank sanitization, do websearch: sanitizing + "water systems" + chlorine + "Gelman Sciences"
OR: http://www.edstrom.com/file.aspx?DocumentId=71 which is a relative 'go-to' standard for industrial, chemical/food process, municipal and bio-pharma water systems (see table 1: 10-20ppm soak of one hour (w/ 2 hour max. time)).
That subset for 10-20ppm (table 1) will be at a rate of 40 fluid ounces of 5% chlorine (laundry grade clorox) per 100 gallons. 80 oz. per 200 gallons for ONE hour.
For a stainless tank I would recommend NOT exceeding that ONE hour limit, as if there are any 'irregularities' in the welding (blow holes, laps, undercuts, etc. ... and the weld is not ground and polished) corrosion will form and eventually penetrate through the welded area when using 'aggressive' mixtures of sodium hypochlorite / clorox.

Rx: for 200 gal. tank - 80 oz. of laundry grade clorox per 200 gallons, ONE hour soak; repeat if biofilm until removed. A 200 gal tank 'should' have access hand-holes - use a long handled scrub brush, first.
"Maintenance dose for a 200 gallon tank (1ppm) is 8oz. clorox per 200 gallons (see 'nose/odor test' below).

To prevent the formation of biofilm: the standard 'maintenance' dose of chlorine is 1 ppm chlorine concentration ..... or 4 ounces clorox per 100 gallons, 2oz. per 200 gallons. .... OR better, is to 'work up' to that ~1ppm value by adding 'clorox' to the water, let mix (days), then open a spiggot and denote the 'faintest/barest' possible smell of chlorine in the water .... that 'barest possible' odor means 'active' chlorine is in the system. Overdosing with chlorine is harmful to the human body. Having water with the smallest possible odor of chlorine in the water is the target. Check monthly (with your nose) and remedy ... and you wont develop a bacterial biofilm.

Other - NO water filters ON the boat (spiggot filters are OK), do all 'filtering' ... from the dock TO the boat @ 1,0µM 99.99% efficient OR certified to remove 'oocysts'. Filters concentrate bacteria, carbon filters accelerate bacterial growth as most common bacteria will use the carbon as a nutrient source. If possible, use carbon filters derived from 'coconut shells' (Darco G60, etc.). Operate the carbon filter 'as SLOW as possible' when filling the tank. A carbon filter mounted IN a water system will eventually extract most/all the maintenance ~1ppm chlorine from the (non-moving/stagnant !!!) water.

Hope this helps.
 

· SailNet Captain of the Month
Joined
·
6,082 Posts
Reaction score
4,468
Rx: for 200 gal. tank - 80 oz. of laundry grade clorox per 200 gallons, ONE hour soak; repeat if biofilm until removed. A 200 gal tank 'should' have access hand-holes - use a long handled scrub brush, first.
"Maintenance dose for a 200 gallon tank (1ppm) is 8oz. clorox per 200 gallons (see 'nose/odor test' below).
Thanks Rich, this is very helpful. I've never had a problem with our water tank so far. This could be b/c we have been seasonal cruisers, using chlorinated city water, and we go through serious freezing every winter, which I assume would kill anything left alive in our tank (we also winterize with antifreeze ... that can't be healthy for the bugs either). I will be moving into warmer climes, and eventually to full-time cruising, so will have to pay more attention to these sorts of things.

Question: Can I simply pour the 80 oz of 5% dilute ("clorox bleach") NaClO into my tank, and quickly follow up with water, or should I dilute the 80 oz further? Following Peggy's method suggests I need to pre-mix 40 gallons first.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,053 Posts
Reaction score
1,638
Question: Can I simply pour the 80 oz of 5% dilute ("clorox bleach") NaClO into my tank, and quickly follow up with water, or should I dilute the 80 oz further?
Best is to partly (half?) fill the tank with water, add the 80 oz., then complete the fill ... such will 'wash' any 'straight' clorox into the tank and off of hoses, etc. 100% clorox on stainless will be 'hell'.

Winter conditions only make the bacteria, etc. become dormant, doesnt kill.

For sailors in the Great Lakes area .... you know all about CryptoSporidium (and Giardia). That is why the 'strong' recommendation for 1,0µM 'certified oocyst' filtration. That 'condition' still requires 'filtration' in many areas of the US and Canada, although much remedied within municipal water systems that get their water from 'surface sources'.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,053 Posts
Reaction score
1,638
Forgot to include .... be sure you use Clorox bleach; NOT Clorox 'Cleaner' which also contains detergent and which will produce a LOT of detergent 'foam' which will take a LOT of work/rinsing from the inside of a water tank. Do NOT use Clorox 'CLEANER".
:)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,182 Posts
Reaction score
613
"To prevent the formation of biofilm: the standard 'maintenance' dose of chlorine is 1 ppm chlorine concentration ..... or 4 ounces clorox per 100 gallons, 2oz. per 200 gallons. .... OR better, is to 'work up' to that ~1ppm value by adding 'clorox' to the water, let mix (days), then open a spiggot and denote the 'faintest/barest' possible smell of chlorine in the water .... that 'barest possible' odor means 'active' chlorine is in the system. Overdosing with chlorine is harmful to the human body. Having water with the smallest possible odor of chlorine in the water is the target. Check monthly (with your nose) and remedy ... and you wont develop a bacterial biofilm. "

Most water companies have their water quality reports available online. I just checked the one for Alameda, and their residual disinfectant level (chlorine) was 1.9 ppm. I think that means that the tap water already has the maintenance dose in it. Provided that you don't remove it with a filter while filling the tanks, does that mean that no further maintenance additive is necessary?

I would encourage anyone to check the report for your municipality, before adding more.
 

· Member
Joined
·
2,447 Posts
Reaction score
979
Filters concentrate bacteria, carbon filters accelerate bacterial growth as most common bacteria will use the carbon as a nutrient source. If possible, use carbon filters derived from 'coconut shells' (Darco G60, etc.).
Rich thanks for the detailed post. I always wondered why the better water filters specified "coconut shell carbon".

Now I know why it's important. :D
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,053 Posts
Reaction score
1,638
Most water companies have their water quality reports available online. I just checked the one for Alameda, and their residual disinfectant level (chlorine) was 1.9 ppm. I think that means that the tap water already has the maintenance dose in it. Provided that you don't remove it with a filter while filling the tanks, does that mean that no further maintenance additive is necessary?
There is no way of telling, without 'chemical means' to maintain that ~1ppm residual chlorine .... other than your (better: wife, etc.) NOSE. Chlorine / SodiumHypoChlorite are oxidizing agents ... and the oxidation due to the municipal loading dose may become 'consumed' by your tank walls, hoses, etc.
The 'barest discernible' odor of chlorine coming out a spiggot is the easiest way to tell that there is 'active' (free) chlorine in your system - no 'numbers' and no cook-books required --> the slightest chlorine odor that the human nose can smell.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,182 Posts
Reaction score
613
Hmmm, the municipal water is probably the reason I've got away with it for so long. I think I should flush out the tanks and start regular dosing then. I'll try the smell test though.
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top