[scubadoo]

OK, the inevitable happened, 2 weeks before we received an offer on our condo we received a cash offer on our 31' Tartan that we couldn't refuse.

Now we're scrambling to find temporary housing while frantically searching for our next sailboat.

Unfortunately, I've only spent any significant amount of time on sailboats that were over 15 years old. I haven't had the opportunity to sail any of the newer (2010+) Jeanneaus, Beneteaus, Dufours, etc.

Seems like the newer hulls carry more beam forward (and aft) than the 1990 -2004 era vessels. Upwind - I know the difference between a 1980s Passport and a 2004 Jeanneau. There's definitely a speed and comfort factor involved, but I wouldn't write off the early 2000s Jeanneau as the ride and speed were acceptable, just not nearly as smooth or fast as the Passport.

The real question is - has anyone here spent time on a newer Jeannea, Beneteau, Dufour hull (2010+) going to weather or even at anchor? Do they pound more than the early 2000s era? Are they comfortable at anchor - does the shape matter at anchor or is it just a simple matter of weight?



Thanks!

 

[SchockT]

We have a 2011 Jeanneau 39i and we love it! She is very forgiving sailing upwind even when overpowered, although you will be rewarded for putting in a reef! The beamy transom creates a great deal of form stability. Certainly it is more prone to pounding when beating into seas compared to older boats that have finer bows, but it is not a huge problem. You just have to steer through the waves rather than smashing through them! The Jeanneau is reasonably fast for a cruising boat. I have never sailed a Passport so I couldn't speak to how it compares to that, but going upwind or close reaching 7.5-8kts is pretty typical in 10+ kts tws. Crack off onto a reach and you will do close to 9kts pretty easily.

At anchor or at the dock, one downside of the beamy transom is the "transom slap" if waves are coming from astern. It can be quite loud if you are in the aft berth. I suspect this is a common problem on most modern boats of her type.

The boat also tends to "kite" a lot when swinging in on the hook in breeze. Again it seems to be very common among that type of boat. It doesn't bother us terribly. The same attributes that cause that problem make the boat nimble and responsive when sailing so I will take that compromise any day!

While there are a couple of downsides to all the beam, the upside is the enormous amount of living space and storage in the boat, and a huge, comfortable cockpit.

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[OntarioTheLake]

Uhhh…shock covered it all. Just buy one of the newer production boats, you’ll be happy.

 

[tempest]

The boat also tends to "kite" a lot when swinging in on the hook in breeze.

Schock, have you tried an anchor sail to reduce that kiting?

 

[scubadoo]

Wow! Thanks for the amazing insight! Definitely appreciated. Quick question, what do you mean by "kite"? Just swinging at anchor or actually heeling a bit?

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

The newer the boat the better. Jeaneau and Beneteau have been in stiff competition to build a better boat (though owned by the same company)... They are succeeding and it's all about liveability and space.
We have a 2001 Beneteau 39 and I can see obvious improvement each model year, and each foot bigger.

Many boats sail about a bit at anchor, but we don't rock at anchor as much as other boats. Worst are older fuller keel boats (which are meant to be more stable!). A friend with a 69 foot Halberg Rassy was rolling gunwail to gunwail while we were sitijng comfortably a few meters away.



Mark

 

[SchockT]

Schock, have you tried an anchor sail to reduce that kiting?

No I haven't been very concerned about it. More often than not we are stern tied anyway.

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[SchockT]

Wow! Thanks for the amazing insight! Definitely appreciated. Quick question, what do you mean by "kite"? Just swinging at anchor or actually heeling a bit?

When there is a bit of wind, the boat hunts back and forth. In a gust, it will stretch the rode out, and when the gust passes the boat shoots forward, veering to one side or the other. On the bright side, the view out our windows is ever-changing! Looking around the anchorage I see many boats doing it, particularly modern, fin keel boats.

It certainly doesn't roll at all, although we have never anchored in a particularly rough anchorage. I doubt it would given the inherent form stability.

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[Jeff_H]

First of all, The Motion Comfort Ratio provides no useful information about motion comfort on any boat since the formula does not include the primary factors that truly impact the motion of the boat. Beyond that, Motion Comfort Ratio is especially inaccurate when talking about these more modern designs. Part of the problem is that the Motion Comfort Ratio measures beam at the max beam at the deck. These newer designs are very beamy at the deck, but are comparatively narrow boats at the water plane pretty much at all heel angles. It is deceptive because there is so much boat visible above the water. (You might be able see what I mean about being narrow boats in the water from these images)

These newer hull forms allow a progressive outboard rotation of the center of buoyancy with heel which develops a lot of initial stability across the normal range of heel, and that helps to dampen roll and helps the boat remain in closer sync with the wave train. Their roll behavior is more like a catamaran than a traditional round bottom cruising boat. In that regard they tend to have a more comfortable motion when it comes to roll rolling through a narrower roll angle at a similar roll rate. .

Similarly, they tend to have a much longer waterline length relative to their length on deck, and that is effective in damping pitch, and so they tend to have a more comfortable pitching motion as well.

Because they have a fairly large water plane, they do tend to heave more than a more traditional design, but the forces involved with heave tend to be large enough that any difference in heave rate should not be readily observable. .

The current trend is towards fuller bows than a decade or so ago. This is a mixed bag. While it does provide more speed when reaching, those fuller bows tend to result in harsher impacts with waves when beating into a chop than the finer bows of the IMS influenced designs. This is not really the same as slamming. Normally slamming is thought to be the impact of water against a relatively flat surface. This is a real concern with the nearly flat bottoms of modern purpose built race boats, and was with many of the IOR era- three-plane bottom profiles. Its less of an issue with the generally rounded forward sections on more modern performance cruising designs.

I will note that while these newer designs are faster when reaching in a breeze than most older designs, they do not seem to have an advantage upwind or in lighter conditions.

Kiting (sailing back and forth with the sails down while anchored) is more a product of the popularization of fractional rig than the hull forms. The center of effort of the sail plan on a fractional rig trends to be further aft than that of a masthead rig. Consequently the keel is also further aft. The result is that these boats balance well under sail. But the masts on a fractional rig tends to be further forward than the mast on a masthead rig. As a result, when the sails are down, the center of effort of the bare poles is quite a bit forward of the center of effort when the sails are up. This effectively is creating a lee helm and so the boat tends to want skew off further to leeward on each swing. Most times the swing is small and inconsequential. (but for example, in a stiff breeze and a long scope, my boat can hit over a knot on each swing,)

I typically use more scope than most folks to reduce the change in the angle of pull on the anchor. In a tighter anchorage or when the swing seems excessive, the work around is to tie a dock line with rolling hitch on the anchor rode, and let that out perhaps 10-15 feet ahead of the bow. I then lead that line aft to a cockpit winch. By tightening that line, it acts as a bridle so that the boat sits slightly skewed to the wind and kiting just about stops.

Modern boat stern slaps are a little more violent when anchored in a choppy anchorage than on some of the prior generation of performance cruisers. That said, it is not as bad as the stern slap on the long overhangs of the 1960's era, CCA boats.

The one thing that I have not seen discussed is that these newer boats tend to throw a lot of spray. I had a change to observe this first hand beating to windward in a smallish chop.

Jeff

 

[SchockT]

First of all, The Motion Comfort Ratio provides no useful information about motion comfort on any boat since the formula does not include the primary factors that truly impact the motion of the boat. Beyond that, Motion Comfort Ratio is especially inaccurate when talking about these more modern designs. Part of the problem is that the Motion Comfort Ratio measures beam at the max beam at the deck. These newer designs are very beamy at the deck, but are comparatively narrow boats at the water plane pretty much at all heel angles. It is deceptive because there is so much boat visible above the water. (You might be able see what I mean about being narrow boats in the water from these images)
View attachment 147106

View attachment 147107

View attachment 147108


These newer hull forms allow a progressive rotation of the center of buoyancy with heel which develops a lot of initial stabitily and that helps to dampen roll and remain in closer sync with the wave train. Their roll behavior is more like a catamaran than a traditional round bottom cruising boat. In that regard they tend to have a more comfortable motion when it comes to roll.

Similarly, they tend to have a much longer water line length relative to their length on deck, and that is effective in damping pitch, and so they tend to have a more motion with regards to pitch.

Because they have a fairly large water plan, they do tend to heave more than a more traditional design, but the forces involved with heave tend to be large enough that any difference in heave rate should not be readily observable. .

The current trend is towards fuller bows than a decade or so ago. This is a mixed bag. While it does provide more speed when reaching, those fuller bows tend to result in harsher impacts with waves when beating into a chop than the finer bows of the IMS influenced designs. This is not really the same as slamming. Normally slamming is thought to be the impact of water against a relatively flat surface. This is a real concern with the nearly flat bottoms of modern purpose built race boats, and was with many of the IOR era- three-plane bottom profiles. Its less of an issue with the generally rounded forward sections on more modern designs.

I will note that while these newer designs are faster when reaching in a breeze than most older designs, they do not seem to have an advantage upwind or in lighter conditions.

Kiting (sailing back and forth with the sails down while anchored) is more a product of the fractional rigs than the hull forms. The center of effort of the sail plan on a fractional rig trends to be further aft than that of a masthead rig. Consequently the keel is also further aft. The result is that these boats balance well under sail. But the masts on a fractional rig tends to be further forward than the mast on a masthead rig. As a result, when the sails are down, the center of effort of the bare poles is quite a bit forward of the center of effort when the sails are up. This effectively is creating a lee helm and so the boat tends to want skew off further to leeward on each swing. Most times the swing is small and inconsequential. (In a stiff breeze and a long scope, my boat can hit over a knot on each swing,) I typically use more scope than most folks to reduce the change in the angle of pull on the anchor. In a tighter anchorage or when the swing seems excessive, the work around is to tie a dock line with rolling hitch on the anchor rode, and let that out perhaps 10-15 feet ahead of the bow. I then lead that line aft to a cockpit winch. By tightening that line, it acts as a bridle so that the boat sits slightly skewed to the wind and kiting just about stops.

Modern boat stern slaps are a little more violent when anchored in a choppy anchorage than on some of the prior generation of performance cruisers. That said, it is not as bad as the stern slap on the long overhangs of the 1960's era, CCA boats.

The one thing that I have not seen discussed is that these newer boats tend to throw a lot of spray. I had a change to observe this first hand beating to windward in a smallish chop.

Jeff

As usual JeffH adds clarity to the subject! It hadn't occurred to me that it was Fractional boats that were more prone to kiting, but I guess most modern boats are frac anyway!

Running a line from the rode to the aft winch is an interesting idea. I use a rope bridle to take the load off the windlass. Maybe I should try extending one side of the bridle aft.

Here is a pic of our boat sailing upwind to further illustrate what Jeff was saying about waterline beam.

Regarding the transom slap, I would say the difference compared to the old-school boats with long overhang is that on modern boats the overhang is very close to the static waterline, so even little wavelets will slap. It is amazing how even a very small wave from astern can thump the hull and reverberate through the boat!

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[MarkofSeaLife]

The one thing that I have not seen discussed is that these newer boats tend to throw a lot of spray. I had a change to observe this first hand beating to windward in a smallish chop.

Jeff

Great post Jeff!!

My boat is the driest of anything Ive ever sailed. Even before I bought a dodger the cockpit seats were never wet from spray. Ive ever only copped 2 half waves over the stern and only a few deck washers. But when I was on a Swan the thing was like a submarine and only came up for air occasionally. So it maybe more selective than often thought. The other Swan I was on, a 651, was far too high out of the water to catch a drop. Great boat.

Mark

 

[scubadoo]

Jeff, Do you write for a living? If not, you should! Great information on all the design aspects and considerations for the newer hull designs, thank you! And thank you for the photos. Also, great tip on mitigating the "kiting" factor. That's somewhat routine for us in the anchorages down in Biscayne Bay...with the wind coming from a different direction than the localized chop. Most times we're in less than 10' of water and let out between 7:1 and 10:1 scope, as long as there's room, which, as you mentioned, helps tame things a bit.

It's been great hearing from You, Mark and Shock about the newer hull designs. No one at our Hillsborough club has a 2010+ design so we haven't had the opportunity to feel how they perform. Of course, we could always charter one if we had the time, but our plans changed so quickly due to the sale of our condo (and Tartan), that we're in a bit of a panic mode. We'd like to be cruising full-time by May - not much time to visit non-local boats, negotiate an offer and survey more than 1 or 2 vessels.

 

[SchockT]

Great post Jeff!!

My boat is the driest of anything Ive ever sailed. Even before I bought a dodger the cockpit seats were never wet from spray. Ive ever only copped 2 half waves over the stern and only a few deck washers. But when I was on a Swan the thing was like a submarine and only came up for air occasionally. So it maybe more selective than often thought. The other Swan I was on, a 651, was far too high out of the water to catch a drop. Great boat.

Mark

Yea our boat is pretty dry too. Another feature of the modern boats is relatively high freeboard which helps. That's not to say we don't take the occasional wave over the decks in rough conditions. One particularly memorable event when we first got the boat...we were beating into steep waves and my son was sheltering in the companionway. I punched a wave, it rolled up the decks and hit the dodger...except for the slot the halyards pass through! It focused a solid jet of water directly into my son's chest. The rest of us didn't get a drop on us!
But that is a rare example of getting splashed while sailing. It rarely happens. The boatcis extremely dry.

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[OntarioTheLake]

I will note that while these newer designs are faster when reaching in a breeze than most older designs, they do not seem to have an advantage upwind or in lighter conditions.

Jeff

Jeff covered motion pretty well. Sadly, I do have to question the above quote. Generally, the only boats faster than us are those that know how to race. However, last summer a Beneteau 38.1 with new (less experienced, by far) owners on a beat set over on the chine and walked away from us. I was dumbfounded. I could SEE how that boat set over, dug in, and then took off. It wasn't skill, so I'd have to say it was the boat design.

As far as pounding, our friends sold their B 373 and bought a Shannon because they were annoyed by the pounding. Light boat, fast boat, well it's going to do that.

On the other hand, the boats newer than our 1996 I have a big issue with: that freeboard that keeps them nice and dry turns the hull into a sail. The Hunters above 36' and the Beneteau 3x3 series have a tough time docking in wind, and get tossed around more at anchor. Significantly more. It always drove me nuts when on or watching, particularly the 3x3 series boats. Friends with them also complain about it.

That said, no boat is perfect, and you're still ahead with the comfort, ergonomics, and sailing capability of the more modern designs. The only impediment is cash.

 

[capta]

My concern with the newer boats is comfort aboard if the boat is to be a liveaboard. Most have moved the "owner's cabin" forward, with an island berth. Doesn't sound particularly comfortable to me underway, but on deliveries I've had to sleep on the floor a few times because the bunks were untenable.
However, we all spend most of our time not underway, so that might not be a real concern, because they do look comfortable when not underway. But I cannot remember seeing any newer boat that has the homey look and feel of the older boats with lots of wood below. Most look so sterile that I expect to see surgery being conducted in the salon in an ad. I should think that this could be something to think about before deciding on a liveaboard boat.

 

[SchockT]

My concern with the newer boats is comfort aboard if the boat is to be a liveaboard. Most have moved the "owner's cabin" forward, with an island berth. Doesn't sound particularly comfortable to me underway, but on deliveries I've had to sleep on the floor a few times because the bunks were untenable.
However, we all spend most of our time not underway, so that might not be a real concern, because they do look comfortable when not underway. But I cannot remember seeing any newer boat that has the homey look and feel of the older boats with lots of wood below. Most look so sterile that I expect to see surgery being conducted in the salon in an ad. I should think that this could be something to think about before deciding on a liveaboard boat.

I am not sure which boats you are referring to, but many boats make the aft cabin the "owners cabin". I WISH our boat had an island bed forward! We have a pretty typical v-berth. On our boat the dinette becomes a good size bed, and the folded drop leaf table acts as a barrier to keep you contained if the boat heels. Regardless, the vast majority of people who buy modern production boats aren't buying them to make long distance or overnight passages.

As for the decor of modern boats, yes, they are very different from the old-school idea of "homey" with loads of dark woodwork, and maybe oil lamps for lighting! That is because the market wants bright and airy, not a dark cave. Keep in mind we are talking about production boats here. You don't get the same kind of elaborate millwork as you might get on a much more expensive boutique brand.

At the end of the day "homey" is what you make it. When you buy a modern producttion boat you get clean and functional, and you are free to decorate any way you like to make it your home.

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[MarkofSeaLife]

2 people who readily admit to little time on modern designed boats both willing to claim they're uncomfortable.

​

 

[colemj]

But I cannot remember seeing any newer boat that has the homey look and feel of the older boats with lots of wood below.

Homes themselves don't look like that anymore, and current boat interiors reflect current tastes in home interiors.

Personally, I appreciate that dark wood cave look and feel from my earlier days in Northern climes, but I wouldn't want to live in one in the tropics now. Bright, airy, sterile is good for me. Fake wood too - our synthetic teak and holly floors look great and hold up so much better than real wood ones. The cherry synthetic laminate in our current boat looks so real that not a single person has believed it wasn't. Best of all, I don't have to do anything to keep it looking like new.

Mark

 

[Jeff_H]

Jeff, Do you write for a living? If not, you should! Great information on all the design aspects and considerations for the newer hull designs, thank you! And thank you for the photos. Also, great tip on mitigating the "kiting" factor. That's somewhat routine for us in the anchorages down in Biscayne Bay...with the wind coming from a different direction than the localized chop. Most times we're in less than 10' of water and let out between 7:1 and 10:1 scope, as long as there's room, which, as you mentioned, helps tame things a bit.

Thank you for the kind words. I am not a professional writer. In real life I am an architect (buildings). But over the years, I have written for on architecture and sailing for local magazines and sailing clubs. While I am a complete amateur as a writer or yacht designer, I have studied yacht design and worked as a yacht designer at various times in my life.

I will note that while these newer designs are faster when reaching in a breeze than most older designs, they do not seem to have an advantage upwind or in lighter conditions.
Jeff

Sadly, I do have to question the above quote. Generally, the only boats faster than us are those that know how to race. However, last summer a Beneteau 38.1 with new (less experienced, by far) owners on a beat set over on the chine and walked away from us. I was dumbfounded. I could SEE how that boat set over, dug in, and then took off. It wasn't skill, so I'd have to say it was the boat design.

My comments are based on being on the race course with a number of these newer boats. I go head to head with them on my boat and on some IMS era designs. We have a pretty easy time beating longer boats boat-for-boat upwind and in lighter conditions. All bets are off reaching in stiff breeze. I am particularly surprised when you say the boat in question was a Beneteau 38.1. They are just not that fast on any point of sail.

Jeff

 

[SchockT]

Thank you for the kind words. I am not a professional writer. In real life I am an architect (buildings). But over the years, I have written for on architecture and sailing for local magazines and sailing clubs. While I am a complete amateur as a writer or yacht designer, I have studied yacht design and worked as a yacht designer at various times in my life.



My comments are based on being on the race course with a number of these newer boats. I go head to head with them on my boat and on some IMS era designs. We have a pretty easy time beating longer boats boat-for-boat upwind and in lighter conditions. All bets are off reaching in stiff breeze. I am particularly surprised when you say the boat in question was a Beneteau 38.1. They are just not that fast on any point of sail.

Jeff

Yes but your boat is definitely more biased towards performance than the typical beneteaus a jeanneaus we are talking about. Having said that I have done some racing on a Jeanneau Sunfast 37, and it it is challenging to sail to her rating. She doesn't point quite as well as older C&Cs in her size range. She certainly isn't slow, and is definitely faster than a typical cruising boat, but struggles against more performance oriented boats. I suspect I would have the same problem if I decided to seriously race my 39i. I would be hard pressed to sail to the 95-105 phrf handicap, but I'm fine with that. If I was going to race seriously I probably would have gone for a J120 or something!

The last time we raced we just enjoyed passing a J30 in a pursuit race. It was pouring rain. We had lunch h spread out on the table, nice and dry under the bimini while they were hunkered down, soaking wet in their foulies!

When we are cruising we are usually the fastest boat on the water...that's good enough for me!



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