SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
  • The winner of the February SailNet Captain of the Month is Howard @HPeer. A new competition starts April FOOLSDAY!
21 - 25 of 25 Posts

· Super Moderator
Farr 11.6 (Farr 38)
Joined
·
11,085 Posts
Reaction score
5,493
Yes but your boat is definitely more biased towards performance than the typical beneteaus a jeanneaus we are talking about. Having said that I have done some racing on a Jeanneau Sunfast 37, and it it is challenging to sail to her rating. She doesn't point quite as well as older C&Cs in her size range. She certainly isn't slow, and is definitely faster than a typical cruising boat, but struggles against more performance oriented boats. I suspect I would have the same problem if I decided to seriously race my 39i. I would be hard pressed to sail to the 95-105 phrf handicap, but I'm fine with that. If I was going to race seriously I probably would have gone for a J120 or something!

The last time we raced we just enjoyed passing a J30 in a pursuit race. It was pouring rain. We had lunch h spread out on the table, nice and dry under the bimini while they were hunkered down, soaking wet in their foulies!

When we are cruising we are usually the fastest boat on the water...that's good enough for me!



Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk
I understand your point about my boat being more performance oriented. My point was that even on a race course, with full crews and optimized sail inventories the Beneteau 38.1 is a pretty slow boat as modern boats go. Sailing 20 year old designs or sailing my boat, I have a pretty easy time running down the most of these modern boats that are 5-8 feet longer (which means they are sailing on 8 to 10 foot waterline). There are exceptions of course. Boats like the Italias, and Xyachts for example are much faster than some of these newer designs.

But that being said, these newer boats are way more comfortable.
Jeff
 

· Registered
Gypsy, Vagabond Westwind 42
Joined
·
154 Posts
Reaction score
86
First of all, The Motion Comfort Ratio provides no useful information about motion comfort on any boat since the formula does not include the primary factors that truly impact the motion of the boat. Beyond that, Motion Comfort Ratio is especially inaccurate when talking about these more modern designs. Part of the problem is that the Motion Comfort Ratio measures beam at the max beam at the deck. These newer designs are very beamy at the deck, but are comparatively narrow boats at the water plane pretty much at all heel angles. It is deceptive because there is so much boat visible above the water. (You might be able see what I mean about being narrow boats in the water from these images)
View attachment 147106

View attachment 147107

View attachment 147108


These newer hull forms allow a progressive outboard rotation of the center of buoyancy with heel which develops a lot of initial stability across the normal range of heel, and that helps to dampen roll and helps the boat remain in closer sync with the wave train. Their roll behavior is more like a catamaran than a traditional round bottom cruising boat. In that regard they tend to have a more comfortable motion when it comes to roll rolling through a narrower roll angle at a similar roll rate. .

Similarly, they tend to have a much longer waterline length relative to their length on deck, and that is effective in damping pitch, and so they tend to have a more comfortable pitching motion as well.

Because they have a fairly large water plane, they do tend to heave more than a more traditional design, but the forces involved with heave tend to be large enough that any difference in heave rate should not be readily observable. .

The current trend is towards fuller bows than a decade or so ago. This is a mixed bag. While it does provide more speed when reaching, those fuller bows tend to result in harsher impacts with waves when beating into a chop than the finer bows of the IMS influenced designs. This is not really the same as slamming. Normally slamming is thought to be the impact of water against a relatively flat surface. This is a real concern with the nearly flat bottoms of modern purpose built race boats, and was with many of the IOR era- three-plane bottom profiles. Its less of an issue with the generally rounded forward sections on more modern performance cruising designs.

I will note that while these newer designs are faster when reaching in a breeze than most older designs, they do not seem to have an advantage upwind or in lighter conditions.

Kiting (sailing back and forth with the sails down while anchored) is more a product of the popularization of fractional rig than the hull forms. The center of effort of the sail plan on a fractional rig trends to be further aft than that of a masthead rig. Consequently the keel is also further aft. The result is that these boats balance well under sail. But the masts on a fractional rig tends to be further forward than the mast on a masthead rig. As a result, when the sails are down, the center of effort of the bare poles is quite a bit forward of the center of effort when the sails are up. This effectively is creating a lee helm and so the boat tends to want skew off further to leeward on each swing. Most times the swing is small and inconsequential. (but for example, in a stiff breeze and a long scope, my boat can hit over a knot on each swing,)

I typically use more scope than most folks to reduce the change in the angle of pull on the anchor. In a tighter anchorage or when the swing seems excessive, the work around is to tie a dock line with rolling hitch on the anchor rode, and let that out perhaps 10-15 feet ahead of the bow. I then lead that line aft to a cockpit winch. By tightening that line, it acts as a bridle so that the boat sits slightly skewed to the wind and kiting just about stops.

Modern boat stern slaps are a little more violent when anchored in a choppy anchorage than on some of the prior generation of performance cruisers. That said, it is not as bad as the stern slap on the long overhangs of the 1960's era, CCA boats.

The one thing that I have not seen discussed is that these newer boats tend to throw a lot of spray. I had a change to observe this first hand beating to windward in a smallish chop.

Jeff
I find your observations really interesting. We owned an older Beneteau and have sailed on a newer Beneteau with the wide stern, and found neither to be as comfortable sailing or sitting as our old heavy displacement big keeled boat. And we hated the slapping. Mind you we are not a full nor long keeler. Maybe that makes a difference. Or maybe it's just different strokes for different folks. We do however appreciate the interior space that all that beaminess provides.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
Reaction score
206
I'm glad I read through all the posts on this thread!

I use a bridle at anchor and feel foolish never thinking to run one of the longish bridle lines down to the center cleat to help stave off the kiting affect. I did come up with making them uneven at the bow to try and offset it a bit. The other thing I started doing to help with kiting was to tie a bucket into the water off the stern that does not float. Drop it down several feet under water, but not touching the bottom, trying to get it about half the depth or at least 5-6 feet.
 

· Administrator
Beneteau 393
Joined
·
10,873 Posts
Reaction score
9,229
I can understand rolling at anchor may upset some (not me) but how can kiting around at anchor upset anyone, unless when it gets to the end of its range it pulls sharply to the other side?

My boat is a Beneteau so it must, prima facie, roll, be uncomfortable and generally (well, ok, kill people) be a floating disaster. However, its not uncomfortable at sea or anchor when everyone is else complaining.

Last night we were on deck having an apero watching some old, probably, full keelers rolling gunwale to gunwale while we were upright. But people slag us off? No, I don't know how a full keep is more affected by roll than a fin keel. Einstein is dead, so who cares, but its true.

Mark
 

· Former SailNet Captain of the Month
Joined
·
6,160 Posts
Reaction score
4,526
My old, full-keeler does not roll easily. Nor does it kite around at anchor. I've had other boaters come up to us, asking why? Full keel my man! Full keel! :LOL:

Actually, I don't know why my boat is better than most in these regards. Maybe we just know how to anchor smarter. It's not too hard to angle the boat to minimize rolling. We usually just harden up on one side of the bridle to change our angle.
 
21 - 25 of 25 Posts
Top