[MedSailor]

....I'm a cruiser, yet I've never sailed a cutter. True story.

I've owned a sloop and a ketch (without a staysail) and sailed on other people's boats, but they're typically racing sloops. A few other boats here and there, but never a cutter.

Now, I've got this wonderful Nauticat 40 Ketch and she has not only an inner forestay with a staysail on a furler and a self taking clew attachment (not a boom) I also have these funny, non-attached, backstay looking things.

Can anyone give me a primer on how to use running backs? I believe I can attach them far enough aft that I don't have to take them down to tack/gybe the main (thank god!) but other than the fact that I should put them up when the staysail is used, I know nothing about them.

Are they just there for good looks, or if used improperly am I going to loose one of my masts? They have a block/tackle purchase that goes to a cam cleat. Should they be secured by more than just a cam cleat if they're really that important?

MedSailor

 

[Faster]

I doubt that your rig relies on the runners to hold the mast up. In all likelihood they terminate on the mast near the inner forestay's upper attachment point. As such they are likely to provide forestay's tension when that sail is being used, and to help prevent mast sag in that area when the foresail is loaded.

 

[Stumble]

Med,

Other than on pretty radical racing boats without a backstay the runer is there for mast tuning not support. In an extreme case they may add to the survivabulity of the mast, but not generally.

Whatthey are for is to stop the mast from pumping. Often this is caused by load by the sta-sail, but it can also be caused from wave action (short and lump waves).

The goal is to a) stop the mast from pumping, and b) add stasail luff tension. But often the better way to achieve B) is to tune the standing rigging properly not add runner.

 

[sailak]

My Crealock 37 has running backs but I am far from an expert.

According to Thumper at PSC I really don't have to use the runners unless in heavy weather. Mine attach to substantial pad eyes along the deck edge abeam the forward edge of the cockpit and they are not far enough aft for the main boom to clear if the sheet is eased.

The way I use mine going to windward is ease the windward runner, tack, then harden up on the windward runner.

A youtube showing my boat. I edited out a lot of the staysail trimming but still shows the basic idea.

 

[SVTatia]

My previous boat was a cutter and I sailed it extensively.
I only used the running backs when there was any kind of sea, and the wind forward of the beam mostly on long passages.
When sailing with the wind forward and using the staysail, if you go to the mast and look up you'll see the belly, the mast curve formed by the forward pull of the inner forestay. The running backs counter that.
You only set up the windward one, and as taut as you can using your 2 or 3 part tackle, and you can watch the dynamics as the boat pounds - slacking off then total pull, which means they are doing their job.
Its great for peace of mind, but again I only used them in long passages otherwise it would be a pain to "tack" them all the time.

 

[capecodda]

When we were sailing our 52, we used the runners whenever we were flying the staysail. We only flew the staysail a good blow (30kts+). If you didn't use the runners you could see the mast bend forward at the staysail attachment point. I'm not sure what it would take to break the mast, never wanted to try and find out. It was a hood furl main, so the mast didn't really want to bend.

The other posts describe slacking and tensioning runners thru a tack.

Seems like a lot of trouble, but a staysail and a reefed main is a beautiful thing in a blow for balance. Think of the staysail as a small jib, that moves the center of effort to the middle of the boat helping to balance the helm, and you're runners as a new backstay that attaches to the mast at just the right space to balance the new headstay.

Good luck Med, nice to see posts about Med going sailing!

 

[tdw]

On a previous boat with runners we kept them on at all times except when off the wind, then I'd loosen off the leeward. I'd always thought they would be a right royal pain in the arse but they proved otherwise.

Biggest bugger with any double headsail boat is tacking the bloody genoa around the inner.

Yea verily to CapeCodda ..... reefed main and staysail is a glorious thing in a blow.

 

[capta]

We use the windward runner to minimize the bend (forward pull) on the mast from the staysail stay when the staysail is under a load. Often we won't set one if the wind is under 15 knots and we aren't slamming into seas.
You should not have both set when under sail, only the windward one, but both can be run, with the leeward one slack. We use a shock cord to keep it clear of the sail and minimize chafe.
When beating in winds above 20 knots and seas above 6 feet, we will use a winch to tighten the windward backstay enough to keep the staysail stay from sagging too much, and putting a forward bend in the mast. In anything above 30 knots, even if the staysail isn't set, we will set the windward runner just as added support for the rig, though it's probably unnecessary.
Once you are out sailing, sight up your mast (assuming your rig is properly tuned) and see what it does on YOUR boat as you slack or ease the runners in various wind and sea conditions. You'll get the hang of it in no time.

 

[Barquito]

Man Dale, those are some outrageously fine images you have of your boat on that video.

 

[Faster]

Man Dale, those are some outrageously fine images you have of your boat on that video.

Ditto that!!

 

[Capt Len]

I've sail several old gaff classics with running backs The best and easiest had long handle Hyfield levers pulling foreward from the turning block. A slot in the handle allowed the stay to slack enough to lash to the aft shroud. Always ready for rising conditions but out of the way nearly all the time in the Salish Sea. after thought. once adusted for tension, they are either on or off.No more thought required. .Turning block on pads must be twice as strong as the pull.(elementary trig) youtube thane sailpast ) I originally had running back on Thane but redesigned and eliminated them. (just really strong and swept spreaders for the top mast shrouds holding back the genoa.

 

[MikeOReilly]

I think capta's got it right. On our cutter we set the running backs in winds around 20 knots. The basic purpose is to balance the force of the inner stay (the staysail). Without them, there is a force imbalance on the mast, which can result in undesirable bend, and eventual catastrophic bad stuff -- although that's pretty unlikely.

Ours come back to a heft attachment point on the deck, about parallel with the forward edge of the cockpit. They are a bit of a PITA when set, b/c the attach in the middle of our deck, but luckily we have a lot of space to get around them.

I rarely run downwind with the staysail out. The only time would be in a double headsail config, which we rarely do (so far). Down wind we use the yankee and main. Or perhaps the drifter or asym and main. No need for the runners then.

 

[tweitz]

Slightly off topic, but Dale, how did you get those incredible videos?

 

[MedSailor]

Well this is all good news. So they're not needed to hold the mast up, but are for rig tune! I can see it now and it makes sense. I am much relieved that not only is there is one less way I can screw something up and bring down the mast, but there is also another string to pull when I am in a tweaking mood. Oh this boat is going to be fun!

I'm also probably going to try something that a friend of mine did, which I thought was a really good idea. She had a very long tail on the running part of the block and tackle on each runner. That way she could lower each one all the way to the water and use them as MOB retrieval blocks and tackles, with one mounted on each side. All it would require is adding a longer length of running rigging but is sure seemed like a good idea to me!

 

[sailak]

Slightly off topic, but Dale, how did you get those incredible videos?

GoPro on a stick for the porpoises. Aerials were done with a DJI Phantom quad-copter with GoPro. (The evil drone)

 

[svjobeth]

My Crealock 37 has running backs but I am far from an expert.

According to Thumper at PSC I really don't have to use the runners unless in heavy weather. Mine attach to substantial pad eyes along the deck edge abeam the forward edge of the cockpit and they are not far enough aft for the main boom to clear if the sheet is eased.

The way I use mine going to windward is ease the windward runner, tack, then harden up on the windward runner.

A youtube showing my boat. I edited out a lot of the staysail trimming but still shows the basic idea.

Nice video...and helpful for me as well, not so much with the running backs on our 34, but how the staysail sets up with the mast pulpits, which we've just installed on Jo Beth.

Actually for the sailing we're doing in the foreseeable future, we've taken down the running backs and inner forestay and configured her as a sloop. When we start cruising and getting offshore on a more regular basis again, we'll reconfigure as a cutter.

So here's a question - anyone using Dyneema to replace the wire portion of the runners?

 

[MedSailor]

So here's a question - anyone using Dyneema to replace the wire portion of the runners?

I thought about doing that, primarily because I would like the wire backs, when stowed, not to appear appealing for someone to grab onto for stability. My theory is that if they don't look like a stay, they won't be used as a handhold. What would be your reason for wanting dyneema? Weight? Ease of stowage?

MedSailor

 

[Faster]

I'd think Dyneema would be a natural for this job.. reduced chafe, lighter, reduced long term damage to paint or anodizing if ever allowed to be slackened and swing against mast & boom.

We had wire checkstays on our last boat, and it didn't take long to damage the finish on our freshly painted boom..

 

[svjobeth]

I'd think Dyneema would be a natural for this job.. reduced chafe, lighter, reduced long term damage to paint or anodizing if ever allowed to be slackened and swing against mast & boom.

We had wire checkstays on our last boat, and it didn't take long to damage the finish on our freshly painted boom..

For these reasons exactly, and for ease of stowage. I'm planning to add a couple of lengths to the damage repair kit for emergency stay replacement, etc.

 

[bblument]

GoPro on a stick for the porpoises. Aerials were done with a DJI Phantom quad-copter with GoPro. (The evil drone)

Nothing evil about THAT drone usage in the slightest. BEAUTIFUL, inspiring shots, in every way; the boat, the scenery, the wildlife, and the angles and clarity from which you captured it all. Kudos, and thanks so much for sharing the video!

Best to you,

Barry