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Learning the HARD way...
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
My '87 O'day 35 has been hauled for the season. When I launched her, for the first time, this spring, I knew that the cutlass bearing was getting old. Toward the end of the sailing season I noticed that the engine vibrations were getting scary, and I believe that I had some knocking of the prop shaft on the strut.

When she was originally launched, she was equipped with a Universal M25 diesel, a transmission (that was replaced with a new HBW-50 in 2004:)), a 4" coupling, a 1" bronze prop shaft, a conventional stuffing box, a strut, and a Michigan 16" prop.

Here is a pic from this past spring:
Starting at the transmission


The stuffing box


The whole package


The shaft


The strut


And the prop


You can see that there ain't no way that I am going to get the coupling off that shaft and have either one of them survive, so I guess that I am on the hook for a new coupling and shaft.

FIRST QUESTION: Can you still find a 1" Bronze shaft anywhere?

I've googled around a bit, and come to the conclusion that you cannot. Therefore I am looking at replacing the bronze shaft with a stainless steel shaft. One vendor recommends something called "Aqualoy-22" for it's corrosion resistance (~$230). - I am not sure of the length, but I believe that it is 49".

That coupling IS toast. I am therefore looking at replacing it. My option is a regular coupling for ~$50 + ~$80 to machine the shaft, or a Vetus Bullflex 2 coupling, which will NOT require machining the shaft. I am told that this will compensate for a shaft that is up to 2º out of alignment, it will also help reduce engine vibration, and it will isolate the prop shaft from the bonding system, so I will not have to worry about galvanic corrosion from stray current in the marina. (I will still need a Nylon bore reducer to isolate the propeller from the shaft, however.)

SECOND QUESTION: Does anyone out there have experience with the Bullflex coupling? Is it really WORTH ~$450?!?!?:eek:

Then there is that ancient stuffing box... I have no idea how old it is, although I did repack it (successfully!) this spring. I fear that the hose will let go when am I least ready for it, and I'll find my boat at the bottom of the harbor. I am considering replacing it with a PSS Shaft seal.

THIRD QUESTION: Is the PSS Seal really worth ~$250, or should I continue to use the old stuffing box (this is getting expensive!).

Finally, before I hauled the boat, I was prompted to replace the zincs on the prop shaft and scrape the prop because the engine was vibrating a LOT. I watched in horror as the engine seemed to vibrate over ¼" under load. Also, while I believe that the motor mounts were new in '04, at least one of them looks questionable:


I have read elsewhere that the Vetus K75 mounts are a good fit for this engine. I would not want to have mismatched engine mounts, so I am looking at 4 Vetus K75 engine mounts.

FOURTH QUESTION: Does anyone have any experience, or advice, with these?

The last part (the part I NEED) is a Johnson Duramax cutlass bearing for ~$35...

All told, after shopping around, the total comes to about $1,200 in parts alone.

You may notice in the above picture that the oil pan looks questionable too. I just purchased a used Kubota pan for $25 on ebay (PN: 15371-01614), which, with some drilling, a gasket and some screws, will replace the Universal Pan that retails for $400:eek:. Heck, I may even be able to clean up the existing pan, but would prefer to have a backup - just in case.

Feedback welcome!
 

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It would be interesting to compare the photo of the shaft in the strut to one taken today...

btw... looks like you had Mainesail change out that through-hull for you!! Nice job!
 

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Learning the HARD way...
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
It would be interesting to compare the photo of the shaft in the strut to one taken today...

btw... looks like you had Mainesail change out that through-hull for you!! Nice job!
The shaft in the strut would look very different. Shortly before she launched, I painted the whole underwater works with transducer paint. I believe that it helped, because I could only use the boat on weekends over the summer, and I only had to have the prop scraped in October.

Here is a pic;


And another;


MS didn't do the work on the through hull, but he did show me how.:)

Thank you!
 

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Learning the HARD way...
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey Faster,

If you liked that through hull, you'll love this one for the sink drain;
Before:

It had a piece of painted marine ply for a backing plate, and gobs of 2 different color sealants on the outside flange. No big surprise that it rocked slightly.:eek: I was using those old calipers to measure the OD for the new base.

After:

Set on a G10 backing plate with black 4200 as sealant. I also used pipe dope with teflon to seal the tailpiece threads. I feel that I got the epoxy fillet just right on this one.:)

No comments on my proposed hardware upgrades (1" Bronze prop shaft, Vetus Bullflex Coupling experience, PSS Shaft seal, Vetus K75 Engine mounts) in the OP yet?:confused:

Right now, I am leaning away from the Bronze shaft because the PSS seal is stainless, and the seal and the shaft would be in direct contact. I believe that a stainless prop shaft is OK because there is a Nylon reducing bushing between the bronze prop and the shaft, and a rubber cutlass bearing between the shaft and the bronze strut. Make sense?
 

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One of None
Hunter 34
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Looks just like my boat Eh! The shaft on mine is stainless but the prop is bronze so I wonder bout that. I have the PSS seal and love it :D When we did the cutless bearing We used a hack saw blade then the sawzall to cut it long ways inside. Then using a round sharp pointed awl pried it inward enough that it could be pulled out. Only after were we able to get the set screws out. The hub was real PITA, but after more then a few hours of using longer bolts a piece of steel with a socket between it and the shaft end, and lots of PB blaster it did slowly come off. There wasn't room for a puller. The Prop was really hard to get off the shaft! Finally a friend had a super strong and large "snap on" 3 jaw puller that worked with a the shock from a hammer.

I would suggest getting the prop and shaft balanced and trued. maybe even the new shaft, should you get one. Mine has a vibration at a higher rpm but not enough to be scary.
Gotta love the new sea valves!

ps; Yes, the rudder needs to be dropped :rolleyes:
 

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You can see that there ain't no way that I am going to get the coupling off that shaft and have either one of them survive, so I guess that I am on the hook for a new coupling and shaft.
With a bronze shaft use a sawzall with 14TPI metal blade. You will cut through it in under 2 minutes with no messy dust.

FIRST QUESTION: Can you still find a 1" Bronze shaft anywhere?
First answer no, and a question, why? The AQ 22 shafts are far better in nearly all regards especially with newer graphite impregnated packings, which bronze shafts REALLY dislike. The term "bronze" is a misnomer anyway. They are basically up to 40% zinc and are more of a manganese bronze than a true marine bronze. They were called Tobin bronze but it has a very high zinc content. No one is making bronze shafts anymore and if anyone tries to sell you one it is not shafting bronze but rather rod stock...

I've googled around a bit, and come to the conclusion that you cannot. Therefore I am looking at replacing the bronze shaft with a stainless steel shaft. One vendor recommends something called "Aqualoy-22" for it's corrosion resistance (~$230). - I am not sure of the length, but I believe that it is 49".
Try to avoid buying shafting on-line. You have two EXCELLENT shafting shops in your area Roses in Glocester and New England Propeller/Ron Peck. The on-line shafting work I have seen has been JUNK and not to industry spec. Sloppy coupling fits, no spooning of the keyway, no shaft spotting, runout of more than what is acceptable, incorrect lengths etc. etc.. You may get lucky but why bother with two excellent shops so close by who will 100% stand behind their work.

That coupling IS toast. I am therefore looking at replacing it. My option is a regular coupling for ~$50 + ~$80 to machine the shaft, or a Vetus Bullflex 2 coupling, which will NOT require machining the shaft. I am told that this will compensate for a shaft that is up to 2º out of alignment, it will also help reduce engine vibration, and it will isolate the prop shaft from the bonding system, so I will not have to worry about galvanic corrosion from stray current in the marina. (I will still need a Nylon bore reducer to isolate the propeller from the shaft, however.)
If your engine is your earth ground it is required under ABYC P-06 to jump across any isolating shaft spacer or coupling to keep this earth potential. On top of that your engine WILL NOT be isolated as you are still connected to earth via the cooling system intake. Stick with a regular split coupling of go with the Vetus but do not try and isolate it.

SECOND QUESTION: Does anyone out there have experience with the Bullflex coupling? Is it really WORTH ~$450?!?!?:eek:
Yes I do and no I don't feel it is worth anywhere near what they sell for. You can buy a Buck Algonquin split coupling for about $65.00 and a good shafting shop will fit and face it anyway in the price of the shaft and coupling. You then align the boat and away you go.

Then there is that ancient stuffing box... I have no idea how old it is, although I did repack it (successfully!) this spring. I fear that the hose will let go when am I least ready for it, and I'll find my boat at the bottom of the harbor. I am considering replacing it with a PSS Shaft seal.
When you get the shaft out take it to your bench grinder with a brass wheel in it and clean it. The thing will clean up as good as new. It is 85-5-5-5 bronze and will likely outlast you and the boat. A new hose is about $8.00. That is a Spartan stuffing box and they are one of the best built. You can buy the wrenches for it directly from Spartan Bronze.

THIRD QUESTION: Is the PSS Seal really worth ~$250, or should I continue to use the old stuffing box (this is getting expensive!).
If you had a v-drive I might say yes but with the new packings you are fine sticking with what you have and $8.00 for a new 6 ply Buck Algonquin stuffing box hose.

Finally, before I hauled the boat, I was prompted to replace the zincs on the prop shaft and scrape the prop because the engine was vibrating a LOT. I watched in horror as the engine seemed to vibrate over ¼" under load. Also, while I believe that the motor mounts were new in '04, at least one of them looks questionable:
I have never been a fan of the Bushings Inc. mounts and I would never have them on my own boat.. The factory Westerbeke/Universal mounts are far quieter, considerably better built and will transmit a LOT LESS noise and vibration to your hull. The drawback is the hole centers are longer on the factory mounts. Motors DO MOVE under load that is why they are not hard bolted.

I have read elsewhere that the Vetus K75 mounts are a good fit for this engine. I would not want to have mismatched engine mounts, so I am looking at 4 Vetus K75 engine mounts.
I have worked on boats with the K-75's and while slightly better than the Bushing's Inc. mounts I still would choose the factory mount every time.

FOURTH QUESTION: Does anyone have any experience, or advice, with these?
If the hole centers are the same try them PYI's mounts are also decent and I like them better than the K-75 but still not as good as factory Westerbeke.

The last part (the part I NEED) is a Johnson Duramax cutlass bearing for ~$35...

All told, after shopping around, the total comes to about $1,200 in parts alone.
Go with a local shafting shop, which will be more money, but lose the PSS, Bull Flex and other unnecessary items and you'll be good.

You may notice in the above picture that the oil pan looks questionable too. I just purchased a used Kubota pan for $25 on ebay (PN: 15371-01614), which, with some drilling, a gasket and some screws, will replace the Universal Pan that retails for $400:eek:. Heck, I may even be able to clean up the existing pan, but would prefer to have a backup - just in case.

Feedback welcome!
I've seen pans a LOT worse. Once put my finger through one...:eek:

Dezincification like this, on bronze shafts, is not unusual. I removed this shaft last Monday and found his shaft was literally FLAKING off under the packing. No wonder it leaked.. It was also dezincified under the prop and cutlass.. While it did last about 25 years this shaft has passed by "safe for use" a number of years ago...



The dezincification was not just on the "surface"... (cut with a sawzall BTW)


It also extended down the shaft as well.
 

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Learning the HARD way...
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Awesome - thank you Denise and MS.

Denise, I think that I can squeak by the rudder (I hope so!). My boat is a 35, and I believe that I have more room between the shaft log and the rudder.

I just got off the phone with New England Propeller. They believe that the total for the shaft & work will be in the $600 range, and probably $70 for a bearing.

I know that the Bullflex coupling only accommodates a 2º shaft misalignment MAX. You've convinced me to forgo it.

The OEM Mounts are $165 each!!!

What are they; impregnated with Gold?

The mount that you see (rusted) is a Dual-Flex 206;


What I don't like about either of these is that the top acts like a cup and retains any water that comes into it, thus the corrosion.

The Vetus mounts look like this;


and should shed any liquid that splashes on them..
 

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Tartan 37
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Check Bushing Inc for your isolators/mounts...and go2marine for pricing, I found them for much less than what I saw at Torrensens
 

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Awesome - thank you Denise and MS.

Denise, I think that I can squeak by the rudder (I hope so!). My boat is a 35, and I believe that I have more room between the shaft log and the rudder.

I just got off the phone with New England Propeller. They believe that the total for the shaft & work will be in the $600 range, and probably $70 for a bearing.

I know that the Bullflex coupling only accommodates a 2º shaft misalignment MAX. You've convinced me to forgo it.

The OEM Mounts are $165 each!!!

What are they; impregnated with Gold?

The mount that you see (rusted) is a Dual-Flex 206;


What I don't like about either of these is that the top acts like a cup and retains any water that comes into it, thus the corrosion.

The Vetus mounts look like this;


and should shed any liquid that splashes on them..
The red colored mount is the OEM style I am referring to not the Bushing's Inc. mounts. Universal used to use Bushing's Inc mounts but they really are a poor mount.

If you want to replace the Bushings Inc. type mounts DO NOT buy them from the dealer they can be had for a lot less and much closer to what they might be worth.

The new Universals ship with the red style mounts though they now have a solid cap cover. They are an excellent design if not inexpensive..

The red mount on the right was replaced at 2800 hours and was still working fine. The two failed Bushings Inc. mounts at 640 hours....;)
 

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One of None
Hunter 34
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Good luck getting past the Rudder Eh! But I have to say the most difficult part of the job on my boat was digging the whole in the ground for the post to clear the bottom LOL The quadrant through bolt is the only bolt that actually keeps the whole thing up in the tube.
 

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Learning the HARD way...
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Denise, I think that I can squeak by the rudder (I hope so!). My boat is a 35, and I believe that I have more room between the shaft log and the rudder.
It ain't pretty, but the prop shaft is OUT.

I tried to use a gear puller, but no dice. The prop shaft was too long for the gear puller.:(
So, I cut ½" of the threads off the shaft. Still too long, :mad: so I cut another ½".

STILL too long :hothead, so I cut them flush with the rear of the prop.:gunner

I cranked on the gear puller as much as I dared, but the prop wouldn't budge. The prop and the shaft were solidly fused. At this point I was committed to a new shaft anyway, so I cut the shaft forward of the cutlass bearing, and slid it out. Then I went into the engine compartment, and cut 2/3 of the way through the shaft, and the battery in my portable sawzall died. :mad:

I finished up with a hack saw. Has anyone ever told you how soft 1" of brass is? If so, they're lying.:rolleyes: It took me close to 30 min to cut the other third... I now have 6 pieces of shaft.:)

Unfortunately Denise is right, the rudder will have to drop to replace the shaft. :(
 

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One of None
Hunter 34
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It's dirty,greasy, and you need to contort yourself into some pretty undignified positions but it's not really difficult, This will also give you a chance to really work on the rudder too. I want to take mine home this winter and save it before it needs saving LOL
 

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In an odd, twisted way, I envy you yankees. Here in the southlands, the sailing season never actually ends. Any time I take an opportunity to work on the boat, it means I'm missing an opportunity to be on the water.

:(
 

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Learning the HARD way...
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
It's dirty,greasy, and you need to contort yourself into some pretty undignified positions but it's not really difficult, This will also give you a chance to really work on the rudder too. I want to take mine home this winter and save it before it needs saving LOL
Denise, you want to take your RUDDER home?:confused:

Have you ever considered a pet?:D
 

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Done this job several time over the last 25 years. Needed to drop the rudder on my previous boat to get the shaft out. As Denise says, definitely the hardest part of the job, especially in a boatyard where the ground is compacted from years of boat storage and LOTS of rocks. Luckily CAL got clever in the design of my current boat (33-2) and offset the shaftline just enough to slide past the rudder.

The length of the shaft is critical, so don't lose any of the pieces!
 

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Here is a source for bronze:
Atlas Metal Sales
Here are the various specs for Silicon Bronze. 96% CU, 3% SI . Try
commercail spec SAE CA655. There are other types of silicon bronze with
Zinc so be careful if you have galvanic problems. This material is great
for low velocity seawater. With stainless steel, there is the real problem of severe pit corrosion because the cutless bearing prevents oxygen from getting to the stainless to form the corrosion resistance from chromium dioxide. Without oxygen stainless has the resistance of ordinary steel to corrosion. Also, keel bolts should not be stainless for the same reason. Silicon bronze bolts must be used. Even galvanized is better than stainless bolts for bolting on a keel.
 

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O'day 35 shaft (getting the shaft?) work

Hey,

I went through most of what you are going through in the winter of 2009 / spring 2010. The stuffing box hose on my boat was original, and UGLY. Also, the cutless bearing was worn, so it was time to fix everything.

As you know, you do need to remove the rudder. That can be a real PITA. Digging the hole is work, but not terrible (at least for me it wasn't), but you need to dig a DEEP hole. There are a few bolts that hold the quadrant together, but you must MUST remove the long bolt that goes through the quadrant and rudder post. On my boat, that bolt would not come out at all. I had to use a small sledgehammer to drive it out, and of course it got destroyed. Do take the time to bring the rudder home and let it really dry out.

Back to the boat: I tried to remove the coupling bolts and then gave up. I ended up paying the yard guys to do the work. They just cut everything off with a saw and replaced with new. For about $1000 I got:
  • New SS prop shaft
  • 3 blade prop reconditioned
  • new cutless bearing
  • new stuffing box hose (box was fine)
  • all installed nicely with new hardware

IMHO that was a bargain. I did put the rudder back on and that was easier than taking it out.

Last point - my boat came with a driversaver, which worked fine and was reused.

Good luck,
Barry
 

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One of None
Hunter 34
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Yes take the rudder home drill it full of holes and bag it, and connect it to a vac pump and really dry out the insides. then give a full wrap of cloth and resin.
 

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Here is a source for bronze:
Atlas Metal Sales
Here are the various specs for Silicon Bronze. 96% CU, 3% SI . Try
commercial spec SAE CA655. There are other types of silicon bronze with
Zinc so be careful if you have galvanic problems. This material is great
for low velocity seawater. With stainless steel, there is the real problem of severe pit corrosion because the cutless bearing prevents oxygen from getting to the stainless to form the corrosion resistance from chromium dioxide. Without oxygen stainless has the resistance of ordinary steel to corrosion. Also, keel bolts should not be stainless for the same reason. Silicon bronze bolts must be used. Even galvanized is better than stainless bolts for bolting on a keel.
The shafts used in salt water are not typical stainless, unless ordered from unrepeatable businesses, they are Aqualoy 22. They are MUCH more resistant to crevice and pitting corrosion than 304, 316 or the lesser AQ or Monel variants.

Most of the shafting used from 1982 on called "bronze" was a very high zinc content product intended for industrial pump shafting. Much of it lacked the tin content to help it resists dezincification as we can see in the pics I posted above.. That shaft came off a 1984 Sabre. This shafting is rarely ever straight enough to meet industry spec and much of it did not meet the ABYC P-06 strength standards for shafting.

When Anaconda filed for bankruptcy in 1982 or so, so went the patent for Tobin bronze which is what the good quality marine shafting was made of. No one ever bought the patent because there was no sense in competing with the Nitronic or AQ variants that were coming on-line and are stronger performers in both strength and corrosion resistance.

Keep in mind that if you buy raw bronze bar stock it will most likely not be straightened to ABYC P-6 standards and you'll very likely incur a large time/labor charge to get it to within tolerance spec. The AQ 22 in the size the OP needs is shipped straightened to within 0.003" and both Roses and NE Prop makes sure it is within spec before it leaves the shop...

Bronze shafting is also considerably more prone to "shaft whip", which results in more vibrations, especially when folding or feathering props are added and the distance from the bearing moves aft. While shaft whip may not be an issue with a very short shaft the Oday's have rather long shafts, with long unsupported distances, that can get whippy.

The two largest keel suppliers in North America still use quality stainless steel keel bolts of both 304 and 316L. 2205 or other variants can be supplied as an up charge but it is a very rare request. Neither do much of anything with bronze and the largest keel manufacturer won't generally use them in sizes under 1 1/2" diameter.....
 
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