SailNet Community banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
741 - 757 of 757 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
Simple response to that. Stop sending any outside support to pay for schools, roads, nothing. If they think they can isolate, then cut the state and federal roads off at the edge of their town and lock them in, forever. No commerce across their borders either. They can all try to make homemade microwaves or water pumps, when theirs breaks.

You simply don't get to pick and choose when you will and will not integrate with the rest of us.

To be clear, I'm not advocating less social distancing, I'm just pushing back on the idea that any community can say "mine, mine, mine" with stuff they did not create, let alone pay for, all by themselves.
Minn,

All I said was that they were barricading their incoming roads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,726 Posts
Like it or not, we're all in this together. You can't set up artificial walls.
Apparently, you can try. Florida won't fully close their beaches or enact any real isolation methods on their citizens, but they are now hunting down nefarious New Yorker virus spreaders:

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/03/29/screening-checkpoint-at-florida-georgia-border-slows-traffic/

From the article: "Gov. Ron DeSantis said the purpose of the new checkpoint on I-95 south is to check for people coming from the New York City area".

And: "We’re just worried about the people fleeing some of those areas."

Funny, he had no worries at all two weeks ago about letting hundreds of thousands of students come and party on spring break - left beaches and bars open specifically for this. Maybe it was because those people were ultimately leaving the state and not entering?

Of course, the Florida outbreak isn't his fault, and he seems to have forgotten that Florida has been fighting an outbreak for two months, not two days:
"Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis slammed what he called "reckless" travelers from New York who defied local stay-at-home orders for causing an outbreak in his state. "You're having people be reckless and cause problems for other communities," DeSantis said."

If everyone got on the same page, this stuff wouldn't be a problem.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,726 Posts

·
bell ringer
Joined
·
4,766 Posts
Some of you really are just going crazy, has the virus changed.

One of the saddest things i keep reading is the blame game, like some government person etc etc is to blame.

Currently i feel most of the problem for continued spread is completely at the feet each person’s personal responsibility.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,643 Posts
Minn,

All I said was that they were barricading their incoming roads.
Understood. My response stands. No individual community gets to do that. Ironically, it’s unlikely that specific community exclusively paid for the road.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,021 Posts
Minnewaska - there certainly can be an interesting legal discussion about state vs. federal rights and all that, but this is not about that. This is about common sense. People freaking out and fleeing to places with totally inadequate resources makes zero sense.
 

·
Captain Obvious
Joined
·
2,325 Posts
C'mon Sal, I've been referred to as racist and now fascist for promoting the message that NYers need to stay home and not come to VT. You're a good guy, I know that, but honestly man, this should not be a controversial issue. I haven't read about anyone here on this forum who has admitted to fleeing for another community to ride out the pandemic, so what and who are you defending?? Again, every single gov official and medical professional is giving the message to stay the f home and not travel domestically.

And as for your website projections for VT, please show me how that accounts for thousands of non-residents currently in VT (for which we have no reliable way to account for), and then I will definitely feel much better.
I am a good guy,, That's why you should listen to me.

I have seen brave selfless people and I have seen despicable selfishness and everything in between. I have burned into my brain the images of ordinary Americans running towards the bombs at the Boston Marathon. Running towards the bombs. I tear up thinking of that.

If thousands of out of state people were actually swamping Vermont systems, then that would be a problem. If that happened. But cutting off part of the country in a time of emergency I find to be despicable. Its either a country and we are all in it together or not.

[deleted by mod. ]


There is no medical, or scientific reason why a perfectly healthy person in Hoosick Falls doesn't drive to Bennington.



This will be over soon. If Vt closed its borders to NY at this time I hope NY would retaliate and enact a 10 year ban on any financial or banking transaction with any VT resident or corporation and in the future enact restrictions on any Vermonter entering NY for tourism or cultural purposes.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
2,437 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: hpeer

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,643 Posts
Minnewaska - there certainly can be an interesting legal discussion about state vs. federal rights and all that, but this is not about that. This is about common sense. People freaking out and fleeing to places with totally inadequate resources makes zero sense.
It only makes zero sense to those hoarding their resources, from other US citizens. That’s just not right. This stuff is only being proposed so the Governors appear to be protecting their constituents and play off their fears.

Not to mention there is simply no evidence that those heading to their VT homes are infected or will become infected. I propose that they represent the population that “gets it” and will be following the rules better than average. My friends are my example. I don’t deny that the entire hospitals system, nationwide, is collectively unprepared for pandemics. Sadly. One just can’t hoard their own to address it.

If this thing sticks, I hope every single NY resident boycotts the VT economy and then let’s see if VT can afford the hospital they have. Based on the picture of so many being there, they obviously play a significant role in the economy.

The 14th amendment is simple. It was passed to prevent States from thinking they could deny the privileges of all citizens.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
2,437 Posts
Some people own more than one home, for which they pay taxes to support both communities...
This micro-provisional border protection is nothing short of silly...
Minn, I have to disagree with how you are looking at this one.

A lot of snowbirds and second home owners came here early on and are still here. No one raised an eyebrow.

But over the past few days there have been more 911 calls in New York City than on 9-11. Limiting travel in and out of the worst hit areas makes sense and limits exposure; hopefully helping to flatten the curve in areas where the virus is not as active.

How to effectively implement that in the real world is the problem. The best you can do is set up enough resistance to travel that most people will stay put.

Brace for this, NYC will be sending sick people out of NYC to surrounding hospitals, when they are overloaded.
I'm not sure this will happen. We're talking about large numbers of infected people and the logistics of identifying, transporting them and caring for them during transport will be an significant issue. There is already a shortage of ambulances and paramedics in NYC. It becomes a triage question - do you assign an ambulance crew to spend most of their day transporting one patient when they can respond to numerous calls in the city during that same time period?

Lets hope the excess capacity of tents and the hospital ship will be enough to avoid what we've seen in Italy.

And don't discount the ability of insurance companies to throw a wrench in the works. There are already reports of insurers refusing to pay for corona virus tests and waive corona virus co-pays despite the government mandate.

Like it or not, we're all in this together.
In a crisis there are great acts of bravery and kindness. There will also be acts of terrible selfishness and cruelty.

Let's hope there are far more of the former than the latter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chef2sail

·
Member
Joined
·
2,437 Posts
Apparently, you can try. Florida won't fully close their beaches or enact any real isolation methods on their citizens, but they are now hunting down nefarious New Yorker virus spreaders:

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/03/29/screening-checkpoint-at-florida-georgia-border-slows-traffic/

From the article: "Gov. Ron DeSantis said the purpose of the new checkpoint on I-95 south is to check for people coming from the New York City area".

And: "We’re just worried about the people fleeing some of those areas."

Funny, he had no worries at all two weeks ago about letting hundreds of thousands of students come and party on spring break <snip>

If everyone got on the same page, this stuff wouldn't be a problem.

Mark
Mark,
Our governor has been VERY uneven. Early on he seemed to be buying into "it's no big deal" and "it's a hoax". Now you get the sense that he is panicking.

There are reports on the local radio station about a similar checkpoint at the Flora-Bama border. But he pulled the funding for the checkpoint into the Keys after one day because he was criticized in the Miami media. The checkpoint went back up the next day with funding from the county and municipalities.

Today he refused to let sick passengers on a cruise ship be evacuated for treatment in Florida hospitals. Refusing medical care to the sick is an incredible act of cruelty.

So far I'm not impressed. From a distance it seems that some other governors are rising to the occasion. It appears that Maryland Governor Larry Hogan has stepped up. From a distance it seems that Andrew Cuomo is doing well in a terrible situation.

Jim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,021 Posts
For the life of me I cannot figure out what Minnewaska and Sal are arguing in support of. They want the right to travel domestically right now?? They want other people to have that right?? Everyone from Trump down to small town mayors, and every medical professional in between, is saying the same thing. Stay home, don't travel. Like someone stated a few posts above, this isn't about people already residing somewhere in a second home or otherwise, but the current influx of people to under-resourced areas as they flee NYC. I can't really say any more on this, so I'll bow out, although I really am confused by the arguments in favor of domestic travel right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,726 Posts
Some of you really are just going crazy, has the virus changed.

One of the saddest things i keep reading is the blame game, like some government person etc etc is to blame.

Currently i feel most of the problem for continued spread is completely at the feet each person’s personal responsibility.
For sure, individuals have a large role to play in solving this. Otherwise, it would be like saying governments alone win wars.

However, people need truthful information, leadership, and lots of it in order to take the personal responsibility needed. A government that tells them its fine to go to a beach in one county, but not in the adjacent county, or that this pandemic is no worse than the flu and will be over soon, or that a staying at home remedy is worse than the pandemic itself, is hindering people's abilities to take personal responsibility.

You have filtered information and have made a personal decision for yourself (correctly, IMO), and "know" what the correct personal responsibility is. Others have done the exact same and come up with the exact opposite "knowledge" of correct personal responsibility.

Until there is a unified message and leadership at the government levels, both of the above personal decisions and responsibilities are "correct".

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,069 Posts
What’s interesting is there’s literature propagated outlining how long a particular material stays infectious. Cardboard, plastic, metal etc. but there’s no information on how many units of virus are required to engender transmission. Nor how long it takes an aerosol from an infected individual takes to allow that airspace to clear and not be infectious.

This information would inform guidance. A person sneezes. You’re 6’ away at time of event. It occurred inside(grocery store) there’s mild drift due to thermal currents. When could you occupy that space? Currently it’s said no need for masks for uninfected people who are not direct caregivers. Is that really true? Current protocols for business and general public are aimed at disinfecting surfaces. If aerosols remain active for longer than presumed and necessary quanta of infectious agent is small enough air not just surfaces need to be continuously disinfected in public spaces. UV and filtered like inside a negative pressure room for a I.D. a patient. Unaware of any studies trying to answer these basic questions. Similarly there’s a paucity of information concerning mechanics of viral ingress. How many viral units are required for different mucosal surfaces? Eyes, nose, mouth, alveoli or even open wound or rash?

The issue of masks is interesting as well. You see people wearing masks but not covering their noses. Or no seal around their noses. Or loosely fitted to allow air exchange above and below the mask. Or home made. Or using a scarf. Can’t find any information that definitively gives guidance on what works and to what degree. Expect N95 masks won’t be universally available for quite some time.

Knowing more about aerosol infectivity would lead to better guidance. Look at the behavior of two mycobacterium. TB and leprosy. You can see how differently you approach population control and care. Here again beyond stating the differing outcomes with different demographics (age, prior pulmonary disease, DM, HTN etc.) there’s a large void as to why some in a high risk group do O.K. and some in a low risk group do poorly. Further understanding of host characteristics leading to good or bad outcomes would be of great interest. This is true for many infections not just mycobacterium.

Perhaps this literature will take some time to evolve as you need someone looking at these questions, appropriate information about the cases needs to be collected which is quite possible not being done due to the overwhelming stress on medical systems and time to collect sufficient numbers to have valid statistics.
 

·
Captain Obvious
Joined
·
2,325 Posts
For the life of me I cannot figure out what Minnewaska and Sal are arguing in support of. They want the right to travel domestically right now?? They want other people to have that right?? Everyone from Trump down to small town mayors, and every medical professional in between, is saying the same thing. Stay home, don't travel. Like someone stated a few posts above, this isn't about people already residing somewhere in a second home or otherwise, but the current influx of people to under-resourced areas as they flee NYC. I can't really say any more on this, so I'll bow out, although I really am confused by the arguments in favor of domestic travel right now.
You are correct, you cannot figure it out. In fact travel is not restricted in vt now, so ....

There is a profound difference between avoiding public events and large groups and sitting in your own private house in Vt, healthy and safe. You can't figure that out? Maybe you think that covid dust will cling to the car wheels and then spread across Vt like a weed. Maybe you think the states don't help and support each other under the constitution. Maybe you imagine the state line is an impermeable barrier, or maybe you think something much worse.

[Deleted by Mod]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,726 Posts
What’s interesting is there’s literature propagated outlining how long a particular material stays infectious. Cardboard, plastic, metal etc. but there’s no information on how many units of virus are required to engender transmission. Nor how long it takes an aerosol from an infected individual takes to allow that airspace to clear and not be infectious.
That is because those studies are difficult to do safely and quickly, and are still underway. They aren't being ignored for the reasons you mention.

https://homelandprepnews.com/stories/46456-dhs-researchers-working-to-better-understand-the-coronavirus-and-how-it-spreads/

This should help: https://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=300275&org=NSF&from=news

Researches have made virus particles without genomes, so they can be used safely and widely to test transmission, viability, etc.

Mark
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,002 Posts
All,

This thread has become a topic of discussion between the moderators. It has been temporarily closed while the moderator team determines how it wants to address some broader moderation issues associated with this thread. While realize that this is an important topic to many of our members and wish to allow a place for discussion of the Covid-19 virus and its impact, we ask that you please refrain from making additional threads on the topic until we can sort this out.

Respectfully,
Jeff_H
 
741 - 757 of 757 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top