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Captain S/V Triumph
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Titnium are a waste of money unless you are going to be keeping the boat for a very long time. Even thenbe why bother? You still onlyand have ten to fifteen years on the rigging. Its just another wy to spendthe more $ then youi need. Unless your circumnaving or sailing theis southern. Ocean beefy 316 will be justa fine. Id recomend titanium too if i was a seller. Motr $ in my poket.c
This is what the person asking for advice stated:

"My intent is crossing oceans and voyaging for many years. I intend to own this boat for a long time."

So, with this in mind, you don't want to scrimp on chainplates.... go with Titanium. It is what you do in 2013 if you want the best.
 

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"Bed it correctly and no worries for atleast 3 years."
Wow, turning "do it right once and forever" into a tri-annual maintance and major replacement chore?? I think I'd trust to blind luck and ignore chainplates rather than do a replacement job that I didn't think would last an awful lot longer.
One can easily argue that correct bedding is simply not possible on the conventional chainplate arrangement, stuffing "goo" around a hole that penetrates the deck. Switching to materials that simply can't suffer the corrosion failure, that's something else again though.
 

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Hayne will cut polish and deliver new chain plates. Made from proper materials & done right. Use the pros not a back yard fabricator when dealing with chain plates . Nothing to fool around with here.
 

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dory, if the chainplates are flat bar stock or bent bar stock, anything simple like that, any machine shop and yes, and back yard fabricator can replicate them. As opposed to express shipping ALL of the chainplates cross-country and back, or waiting for weeks while they are out.

Chainplates are usually a bog-simple fab job, anyone who has figured out how to work in machine shop while keeping all 12 of their fingers can make them up. (Never trust a machinist who isn't polydactyl, he just isn't equipped for the job.)
 

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Blue Horizons
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"Bed it correctly and no worries for atleast 3 years."
Wow, turning "do it right once and forever" into a tri-annual maintance and major replacement chore?? I think I'd trust to blind luck and ignore chainplates rather than do a replacement job that I didn't think would last an awful lot longer.
One can easily argue that correct bedding is simply not possible on the conventional chainplate arrangement, stuffing "goo" around a hole that penetrates the deck. Switching to materials that simply can't suffer the corrosion failure, that's something else again though.
Ive seen some really complicated chainplate setups. My boat is super simple. If you bed them right then like standing rigging 306 should not be able to corrode enough to do any crevice damage for atleast three years. Then simply check once per until the seven eight mark. If your like me you hose the deck with freshwater after salt water sailing.

Your standing rigging is only good for ten. So why buy titanium when you will have to replace the whole rig anyway? When that time comes any prudent captain would pull the chains for inspection anyway so i, really not seeing the critical value of titainium vs beefy 306 here. Its just a lot of flash and money. Its like dropping a cat back exhaust in a honda civic . Sure it might add some hp and not corrode like factory but at the end of the day its still a honda.
The cost to me do not justify the expense but its not my boat. Its his choice. That money saved could be a whole nother island adventure and besides a circum nav will not take longer then 3 or 4 after which case you will need to do a complete and thorough inspect of the entire rig and system ANYWAY, including the chainplates.v
 

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Captain S/V Triumph
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804 Posts
Ive seen some really complicated chainplate setups. My boat is super simple. If you bed them right then like standing rigging 306 should not be able to corrode enough to do any crevice damage for atleast three years. Then simply check once per until the seven eight mark. If your like me you hose the deck with freshwater after salt water sailing.

Your standing rigging is only good for ten. So why buy titanium when you will have to replace the whole rig anyway? When that time comes any prudent captain would pull the chains for inspection anyway so i, really not seeing the critical value of titainium vs beefy 306 here. Its just a lot of flash and money. Its like dropping a cat back exhaust in a honda civic . Sure it might add some hp and not corrode like factory but at the end of the day its still a honda.
The cost to me do not justify the expense but its not my boat. Its his choice. That money saved could be a whole nother island adventure and besides a circum nav will not take longer then 3 or 4 after which case you will need to do a complete and thorough inspect of the entire rig and system ANYWAY, including the chainplates.v
Though standing rigging is "only good for ten", nobody I know actually follows that schedule. Maybe you do, but nobody around Boston whom I know is, or else every single sailboat here would have a new rig.

Anyway, after my chainplates broke 1000 miles out to sea, 2 different riggers were clear on one thing: Use Titanium if you are replacing your chainplates.

For me, (a 1986 Ta Chiao CT 56), it is more than enough of a hassle to actually access and replace the chainplates, and knowing I am not going to replace my rig every 10 years, if / when I do replace my chainplates I sure am going to use titanium.

Save a few bucks if you want, I would rather have peace of mind, within the realities of how often I actually do replace my rig / chainplates; i.e., once per generation. :)
 

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The idea that chainplates and standing rigging are going to be replaced every three years is sort of nutty. I know I have never seen anyone who did that, and I have been around a boat or two LOL. I do not even know anyone who replaces all of the running rigging every three years, all that rope and the sails and the stainless adds up to a huge pile of cash no matter who you are, and what generally happens is that a person will inspect it or have it inspected at the time of purchase and then replace the stuff that is either missing, broken, or will be broken before next season. Then after that it is a continual maintenance thing, polishing, cleaning, repairing, and praying that this crap does not come apart anytime there is a storm is all part of most people's boating experience. I personally do all of my own work on the boats that I have owned, with minor exceptions, and I get to know the boat very well, and this lets me know what I can get away with waiting to fix, and what I cannot.

If something is going to fall and bonk me on the head, or is going to let the water on the outside get to be on the inside,or something that is going to catch on fire and toast me and the boat, or make it impossible to steer the boat then it gets fairly immediate attention. If something is going to make it hard for me to eat, drink, use the toilet, or shower it gets attention as soon as I can conveniently deal with it. If something is just a minor nuisance or inconvenience but it is not going to burn me, drown me, or keep me from being comfortable, then I deal with it during routine maintenance that I schedule for every week, month, and year.

There is always something to do on a boat, there is no such thing as having nothing that you need to do, but at least some of it can wait until you get done doing what you want to do. After all, if you make yourself a slave to the boat then you are just working, and you are not even getting paid for it.
 

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Blue Horizons
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I did not say REPLACE, I simply said inspect- my chainplate broke in a small craft advisory on the St. Johns from a fracture between the deck and underside so my visual inspection was worthless- you had to PULL THE CHAINPLATE to be able to see it. So after three years you SHOULD pull the chainplates and inspect- BOTH SIDES!!!!! I only pulled the starboard side and it was so nice looking I skipped port. Port was the one that snapped in 25 knots risking mast collapse.

Also- Circumnavigating is WAY different than occasional sailing. The CONSTANT stress and loads, salt corrosion, and constant use warrant a COMPLETE CHECK UP after said circum navigation INCLUDING chainplates titanium or not. I said a rig is good for 10- yes it can make 20 but come 15 Im replacing unless Im in fresh water. Your standing rigging is only trumped by your seacocks. Standing rigging includes chainplates. So unless your going titanium shrouds and turn buckles too I REALLY dont see the point in the expense of titanium over 306.
 

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Captain S/V Triumph
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804 Posts
The idea that chainplates and standing rigging are going to be replaced every three years is sort of nutty. I know I have never seen anyone who did that, and I have been around a boat or two LOL. I do not even know anyone who replaces all of the running rigging every three years, all that rope and the sails and the stainless adds up to a huge pile of cash no matter who you are, and what generally happens is that a person will inspect it or have it inspected at the time of purchase and then replace the stuff that is either missing, broken, or will be broken before next season. Then after that it is a continual maintenance thing, polishing, cleaning, repairing, and praying that this crap does not come apart anytime there is a storm is all part of most people's boating experience. I personally do all of my own work on the boats that I have owned, with minor exceptions, and I get to know the boat very well, and this lets me know what I can get away with waiting to fix, and what I cannot.

If something is going to fall and bonk me on the head, or is going to let the water on the outside get to be on the inside,or something that is going to catch on fire and toast me and the boat, or make it impossible to steer the boat then it gets fairly immediate attention. If something is going to make it hard for me to eat, drink, use the toilet, or shower it gets attention as soon as I can conveniently deal with it. If something is just a minor nuisance or inconvenience but it is not going to burn me, drown me, or keep me from being comfortable, then I deal with it during routine maintenance that I schedule for every week, month, and year.

There is always something to do on a boat, there is no such thing as having nothing that you need to do, but at least some of it can wait until you get done doing what you want to do. After all, if you make yourself a slave to the boat then you are just working, and you are not even getting paid for it.
Reality, clearly stated! I love to hear this stuff so much more than the unrealistic BS so often stated.

Bravo Sailor, bravo!
 

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Reality, clearly stated! I love to hear this stuff so much more than the unrealistic BS so often stated.

Bravo Sailor, bravo!
Though my ancestors were from Spain and Germany I often suspect a frugal Scottish ancestor in there somewhere, because I am cheap as all get out, but then the German kicks in once I start working on something and it has to be done right or not at all. The fight between Scotland and Germany must rage at times in my DNA, because the frugal side knows better than to start a repair project because once started all that cheapheartedness has to be pushed aside.
 

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Captain S/V Triumph
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804 Posts
I did not say REPLACE, I simply said inspect- my chainplate broke in a small craft advisory on the St. Johns from a fracture between the deck and underside so my visual inspection was worthless- you had to PULL THE CHAINPLATE to be able to see it. So after three years you SHOULD pull the chainplates and inspect- BOTH SIDES!!!!! I only pulled the starboard side and it was so nice looking I skipped port. Port was the one that snapped in 25 knots risking mast collapse.

Also- Circumnavigating is WAY different than occasional sailing. The CONSTANT stress and loads, salt corrosion, and constant use warrant a COMPLETE CHECK UP after said circum navigation INCLUDING chainplates titanium or not. I said a rig is good for 10- yes it can make 20 but come 15 Im replacing unless Im in fresh water. Your standing rigging is only trumped by your seacocks. Standing rigging includes chainplates. So unless your going titanium shrouds and turn buckles too I REALLY dont see the point in the expense of titanium over 306.
Unless your chainplates are installed on the outside of your hull, (unlike mine), they are generally installed in such places that corrosion can more easily get to them than to your exposed turnbuckles, etc., which again, you can much more easily clean up.

So, there is a big difference in the full spectrum of stresses which the plates will be exposed to vs. the rest of the rig. Titanium will NOT rust.

And, as I mentioned, in reality I am only going to change these once. So, I will use the best material available for those, and then I won't have to take apart my cabin interior to "inspect" them. Which unless you are going to do the dye test, or an Xray, just looking at them doesn't really tell you jack.

Why fight using the best especially for such a deeply nested, hard to replace, and important part(s), which statistically speaking, you are only going to replace once, per boat you own.

Fair winds....
Doug
 

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Captain S/V Triumph
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804 Posts
Though my ancestors were from Spain and Germany I often suspect a frugal Scottish ancestor in there somewhere, because I am cheap as all get out, but then the German kicks in once I start working on something and it has to be done right or not at all. The fight between Scotland and Germany must rage at times in my DNA, because the frugal side knows better than to start a repair project because once started all that cheapheartedness has to be pushed aside.
Well, besides ancestry, age and experience has taught me that in the long run, quite frequently, using / buying the best, actually saves me money.

And on top of all that, my ancestry must have someone who was lazy, because I'd much rather only tackle something as difficult as changing my chainplates, (or pulling my motor), once, if at all possible.

So, when I do pull my motor, I also balance it by grinding the outside of the shank of each connecting rod until the entire piston assemblies all weigh the same, within a fraction of a gram. Makes for a very smooth running motor, but more importantly it will LAST A LONG TIME.

Sadly, I beleive we spend around 80% of our "sailing time" maintaining our boats, and 20% sailing if we are very, very lucky. Use Titanium. :)
 

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I did not say REPLACE, I simply said inspect- my chainplate broke in a small craft advisory on the St. Johns from a fracture between the deck and underside so my visual inspection was worthless- you had to PULL THE CHAINPLATE to be able to see it. So after three years you SHOULD pull the chainplates and inspect- BOTH SIDES!!!!! I only pulled the starboard side and it was so nice looking I skipped port. Port was the one that snapped in 25 knots risking mast collapse.

Also- Circumnavigating is WAY different than occasional sailing. The CONSTANT stress and loads, salt corrosion, and constant use warrant a COMPLETE CHECK UP after said circum navigation INCLUDING chainplates titanium or not. I said a rig is good for 10- yes it can make 20 but come 15 Im replacing unless Im in fresh water. Your standing rigging is only trumped by your seacocks. Standing rigging includes chainplates. So unless your going titanium shrouds and turn buckles too I REALLY dont see the point in the expense of titanium over 306.
first it is 316 stainless that is preferred for corrosion resistance not 306. there is no 306 stainless steel. not many people will pull chainplates to check every three years, you my be the only one. checking chain plates, and checking rigging are two different things. if I am going around the world and changing the plates first it would be Titanium for sure. why go to all that work and not do it so you do not have to ever worry about it again. the cost difference is only in the material not the labor which would be the same. another good material is Nitronic 50 which is what rod rigging is made out of. and the chainplates on my boat are made out of aluminum and 25 years old but they are in the cabin
 

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Mark, you'll know the German has kicked in when you feel the compulsion to replace every screw and bolt on the boat with something that has a recessed metric Allen (hex) head instead of any other fastener. Preferably in at least two dozen different sizes, so two dozen specialty tools will be required to service them all.

Oh wait, "dozen" isn't metric, that's gonna be another problem isn't it? <G>

Proper German engineering would produce outstanding chain plates, but you'd need to remove three access panels (at least one of which requires a new gasket and seal kit to be used when replacing it) with six special tools to reach them, and you'd void the warranty on the boat for having an unauthorized independent source touch them, instead of the factory trained mechanic. You may be German, but you're not authorized.
 

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&#9608;&#9608;&#9619;&#9619;&#9618;&#9618;&#9617;&
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12"x36" of 1/4" Titanium plate, unspecified alloy, $800+.
Four bars of 316SS, 3"x 36", $220.

Without shopping around or trying to factor in the harder machine work...Not so bad, an extra $600--700 for chainplates that simply COULD NOT experience that failure on a 30-40' boat.

Not that the difference is chump change, but if access is a problem and someone plans to keep a boat long long term...it might even be a good selling point for the next owner. One less thing they have to worry about as well.

Of course if you have titanium chainplates, they should be bolted external to the hull, and finished in those wonderful irredescent colors that only titanium has, just to make sure everyone knows it. (VBG)
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Uh, CA sales tax is 8%. You buy in CA and you are legally bound to simply cut that check for 8% of book value of your new boat and drop it in the mail to CA BOE. Forget to do it? They'll have you and your boat. They are merciless. AND they'll charge you late fees, interest and penalties.

Washington allows a cruising permit for 6 mos. There are other states to sail to. My atty will file the correct papers with CA to prove yacht was not in CA. If you are buying a boat of any consequence you need to do your due diligence.

I don't want to tip my hat if any of the bad guys monitor this board.

BUT, I pay a hell of a lot of taxes. I follow the law and support my country. Tax avoidance IS A RIGHT. Tax evasion is illegal and should be punished accordingly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
As the OP on this thread I should follow up on the title of this post.

I just did walk away from the Passport 40 this week. Long flight to WA to check it out. Needed new teak deck, engine oil in bilge, chainplates looked bad, leaks from saloon windows, ugliest mast I've ever seen -painted brown, mainsail shot, several diesel leaks, smelly head, dodger shot, rig had issues etc, etc.
BUT fantastic news!!!! I'm closing on an amazingly good shape Nordic 44 next week.
 

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Uh, CA sales tax is 8%. You buy in CA and you are legally bound to simply cut that check for 8% of book value of your new boat and drop it in the mail to CA BOE. Forget to do it? They'll have you and your boat. They are merciless. AND they'll charge you late fees, interest and penalties.

Washington allows a cruising permit for 6 mos. There are other states to sail to. My atty will file the correct papers with CA to prove yacht was not in CA. If you are buying a boat of any consequence you need to do your due diligence.

I don't want to tip my hat if any of the bad guys monitor this board.

BUT, I pay a hell of a lot of taxes. I follow the law and support my country. Tax avoidance IS A RIGHT. Tax evasion is illegal and should be punished accordingly.
This is a summary of the current (everchanging) California state tax code as it applies to the purchase of vessels in California. If you have any questions you should take it up with a Maritime Tax Law firm like Weil & Associates,

http://www.weilmaritime.com/practice-yachting-sales.php

who come very highly recommended. I have purchased boats, semi trucks, and heavy machinery in California for resale or use outside the state of California. A USCG registered vessel would definitely qualify under this law as exempt if you meet the condition of the exemption. Please not the exemption for taking it out of the state applies even if you have the boat in a marina for repairs or refitting. I hope this helps clear up any questions on this issue.

The State of California will assess sales tax (for new vessels) or use tax (for used vessels) if the boat was (1) purchased in California; OR (2) purchased for "use" in California. California's territorial boundary extends three miles into the ocean, so if the purchase can be structured to close more than three miles offshore (an "Offshore Delivery"), the buyer will satisfy the first prong of the test. The second prong involves a subjective analysis of the buyer's intended use at the time of the purchase, which is a little more complicated.

A buyer's true "intent" is impossible to determine through any objective test, so a "presumptive test" was established, where a buyer who could prove that the boat was used outside of California for a particular time period after the purchase was presumed to have purchased it for use outside of California. For many years, the required time period was 90 days. Under that test, a buyer who could prove that he or she used the boat outside of California for more than 90 days during their first six months of ownership was "presumed" to have purchased the boat for use outside of California.

Over the years, it became very common - almost expected - that the buyer of a boat in Southern California that cost more than $100,000.00 would take advantage of this procedure and spend three months in Ensenada after the purchase. California taxpayers took exception to the use of Ensenada as a "90 day yacht club," and in 2004 the legislature enacted Senate Bill 1100 as a part of that year's state budget.

SB 1100 increased the 90 day period to one year, though it did offer several strategies for reducing that time period. The bill also included a "sunset provision," and when the law expired in 2007 the 90 day rule was reinstated. But in 2008, the budget negotiations took immediate aim at this perceived loophole, and we have now officially returned to the one-year rule.

We should note that this waffling back and forth on the time period has no effect on the basic structure of the law. The State will continue to assess sales or use tax if the boat is purchased (1) in California or (2) for "use" in California. The varying factor is the presumptive test for evaluating the buyer's intended use at the time of purchase.

We should also note that this is not a black and white test, and the "presumption" can be defeated. It was - and is - possible for a buyer to comply with the calendar test and nonetheless be subject to the tax, if the California Board of Equalization discovers facts that indicate that the buyer actually intended to use the boat in California.

The approach to the one-year requirement in 2008 differs from the 2004 approach in two ways. First, the new law has no "sunset" provision, and the new rules are therefore theoretically "permanent." Second, unlike the approach used in 2004 which provided a two month phase-in period before the law became effective, the 2008 modification to the law was effective immediately. Anyone who entered into a purchase contract after September 30, 2008, was subject to the one-year rule.

The highlights of the one-year rule provide that a buyer will be presumed to have purchased the boat in California, and thus be subject to assessment of sales or use tax, if:

For California residents, where the buyer brings the boat into California within one year of purchase;
For non-residents, where the buyer keeps the boat in California for more than six months during the first one year after the purchase;
For anyone, if the vessel is subject to the assessment of personal property tax at the county level during the first year after purchase.
There is one significant exception to the one year timetable. An owner may keep the boat in California during a repair, retrofit, or modification project, without affecting the one year analysis, so long as the boat logs less than 25 hours underway while it is in California.
 

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As far as DIY yards, I recommend the Ilwaco boat yard at the mouth of the Columbia River. We hauled out our 30' boat there, had a bottom wash and did a month's worth of heavy work on her - electricity and all - for around $450. It's the best deal we've come across, and the people there are very nice. Bellingham also has a pretty inexpensive DIY yard (at least it was DIY in 2008) with lots of good contractors on hand. I can't remember the name though, sorry.

Good luck!
 
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