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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I posted this on another forum, wanted to see what some of you over here thought.....

I will be ordering a cruising spinnaker kit soon from sailrite for a hunter 40. I know that some kites come with leech and luff lines, some regular line and others spectra. Looking over the Sailrite kit, it just has tape.

- Are the lines nessesairy? and will I want them?

Second question.........

Fabric weight, .75 or 1.5? Lots of oppinions out there.....what is yours?

- Boat is in Saint Petersburg but will mostly be using the sail on the gulf. I want to use it in light air yet I don't want to worry about blowing it out on a reech or closer to the wind. As for wind speed, I'm not sure that I will be comfortable flying it in 20kts and probably even 15 due to my experience. Besides, at that speed the other sails on the boat should be providing a good enough push.


Thanks.....
 

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IMO .75 is fine for most coastal cruisers. Most cruising sailors rarely try to fly chutes in conditions that would require the heavier 1.5 oz weight, and using a 1.5 all the time would be frustrating in the light stuff.

Another consideration is the stored bulk of the thing.. a 1.5 oz is going to need more space.

If it's windy enough to blow out a .75 oz chute on a reach, you'd go just as fast with the genny.
 

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1.5 oz material would be a pretty heavy weight spinnaker. Most 1.5s I've used were small, heavy air chutes.

If you are a cruiser, you have to ask yourself whether you will be hoisting the chute in heavy weather? Usually not.

It partly depends where you sail and what the prevailing conditions are, but as a very general rule most of us are hoisting a chute to improve downwind performance in light to moderate air. That translates to a 0.75 oz chute for most folks.

Some folks will opt for a 0.6 oz material, but if you're only going to have one chute in your inventory, a 0.75 makes for a good all-round spinnaker.
 

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Spin Construction

Hi Acadia,

I have a boat with a somewhat larger sail area than the Hunter 40. My all purpose A sail is from North. It is made of a combination of 3/4 oz and 1.5 oz nylon cloth. The heavier cloth is in the head, tack, clew and down the luff and leech. It has tapes on the luff, leech and foot with a high tech small diameter line inside the tape for adjustment. This gives us the best compromise between weight and not worrying too much in a building wind on a shy reach.

Some other things to consider may be the size of the sail and the shape of the sail. If all you are doing is cruising, may I suggest a somewhat smaller than 1.8J dimension sail. Perhaps something in the 1.6 to 1.7 J range. The full size sail is really meant for a purpose and should be built lighter. A smaller sail will give you more use before you have to take it down at the expense of a little power.

Might I also suggest you consider that a sail that is very full will be great broad reaching but be too full to carry at higher apparent wind angles.

Most of the sailmakers have descriptions of each cut on their web site. I'd suggest if this is your only A sail that you consider one of the middle choices....not too powerful...but also not too flat. Once again this is a compromise but as it will be the only sail you put up after you roll in the headsail, you may want to consider that this type of sail will allow you to use it more at the expense of optomizing for one particular point of sail.

You may want to consider also checking with the Direct Outlet of North as they make some standard size A sails that may work well for your boat at a competitive price. Having constructed downwind sails from both nylon and more exotic fabrics, I can tell you that it is a lot of work and even more work to do just right. You may pay just about the same amount for a finished product in the current market if your haggling skills are finely honed.

Good luck!

121Guy
 

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Acadia,

for light cruising relaxed sail, get the .75.

By all means..DO GET the luff and leech lines....

It can help (along with the halyard, and the tack line), shape the sail with more or less draft (depth), and to help you raise the sail..If you get a cruisng AP (all weather) sail, please have them cut it slightly smaller, and flater...you can get wider sailing angles...or a VMG sail

NOW...if you are a car;ess sailor, and normally stuff lasts small time in your boat, get a thicker heavier material...

But do get the lines..

Is it a radial sail?
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
wow fast replies!!

Yes it will be full radial. I've just requested a quote from North Direct see how they compare.

I was also looking at the In-Stock North Genakers. Any comments on those?

thanks for the help!
 

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Acadia, try Quantum...ask for an AP

By the way..here's a pretty sized AP..in case you decide to go that way...the cloth is Contender 90 (google it), can't beat that..what Alinghy uses.

Its a perfect sail for fast sailing..this one is 1500sqf



and better seen in this video..so easy to sail I let my son do it..

 

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A couple of more points

Acadia,

I agree with Giuletta as most any sailmaker can meet your needs. We also have a Quantum A sail. It's a Code Zero style that is made very flat out of a combination of weights of Pin Stripe fabric. It's a great sail!

For how you described your needs, cruising only and with this being the only A sail you will have aboard, a pre-made sail from North, or any other reputable maker out there designed according to the advice you are getting will be great. If you can find a premade all purpose sail close to the dimensions you settle on, you will save a great deal over a custom made one. Last, let me suggest that you consider a spinnaker sock or furling system like Giuletta uses which will make using the sail even more attractive.

If you are doing what most cruisers do, and some racers these days with sport boats, you will roll up the headsail on the furler before setting, or shortly after setting the A sail. If this is how you will be using the sail, consider a sock. You can research these as well as the sail designs on all the major sailmaker sites. Another item to consider is a strap that will allow you to attach the tack of the sail around your furled headsail. The strap is unnecesary at deep sailing angles but is a nice sthing to have in closer angles. You may consider asking for quotes on the sail, sock and strap at the same time as some offer packages. In the past North Direct offered these packages as well as including a pair of sheets. It has been a couple of years so I do not know if any of the sailmakers are offering similar packages today. Finally, consider how you will be running the tack line. It would be nice to have the tack set outside, in front of, the bow pulpit. Depending on your bow setup and if you have, and how strong your anchor roller is, you may be able to attach a block at the end of the anchor roller. Sometimes these are not built too strongly and are engineered to take downward force and not the upward force the tack block will put on them. We use the anchor roller in light air, broad reaching but switch to a solid Wichard padeye through bolted to the deck, inside the pulpit in heavier air or closer angles.

Good Luck!

121Guy
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Fantastic info guys!!

Giulietta, Nice video Looking forward to fly one of my own.

121 guy, I am definitely going to get the ATN tracker and the sock. I am also seriously considering modifying the shape of the sail as some of you described.

I haven't got the quote from North yet but I think I am leaning towards a sailrite kit. I enjoy building things and I think this would be interesting. Also I can chose my own colors vs a pre-built one. And it is the cheapest option out there.

I'll post pictures when I'm done

Thanks all
 

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Discussion Starter #12
No haven't decided on the shape yet but after seeing what you guys had to say I am thinking of getting the shape modified a little.

AP and VMG. I looked at the Quantum site and I think they may have changed the names of their sails V3 to V something.

But just to recap some of your comments... you would suggest something smaller than the fuller ASY but not quite as small as a full on reaching sail (code zero?).

I will talk to Jeff at Sailrite next week and see if he understands what I want, I'm thinking he will because he was telling me he prepared a few kits for racers who wanted both a reaching and running ASY. If not I'll come back on here and see if I can get more advise from you.

Thanks again
 

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I have a North AS, it is in the 1.6=1.7 range as 121 mentioned. Or about 580# vs a max size for my boat of 680# or there abouts. Sail cloth is .75. But then, I have a 30' boat too!

What I have found is like 121 mentions, is if the wind pipes up, and it is just the two of us, it is easier to handle when it gets stronger than one likes. I also have a sock too, which makes it easier to deploy with the two of us, and to a degree, even with a crew of 6 and racing!

While I do not know the actual term for AP, I will assume "All Purpose" vs a reaching or true running sail only! IE it should do either reasonably well.

As an example, hopefully next summer, I will get a symetric sock in the low 700# range for the racing I do for lighter airs, but the AS will do for heavier or smaller crews, just the two of us to go faster downwind etc.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/pacific-northwest/47155-foul-weather-bluff-race-oct-4th-2.html

If you go to that thread, post 19, you will see three pics of my boat under it' AS taken by djodenda when winds are in the 18-23 range.

Marty
 

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Size and Shape

Acadia,

Most sailmakers have a labeling system to define their racing downwind sails. Some have a similar system for their cruise line. For the most part, the race series are optomized around size, weight and shape. When you carry six or seven different kites you can specialize by making each one perfect for a given wind strength and angle. The race rules, for the most part, stipulate that the largest A sail can be up to 1.8 times the J dimension of your boat in what is called the LP dimension. This measures the distance from the tack to the leech on a perpindicular angle. I'm not good with drawings on the net so perhaps there is one around. I'm guessing that your J dimension is around 16 feet...could be a bad guess....so using that as a start 16 x 1.8 = 28.8 feet.
That's a max size sail. For a racer, the luff length would also be maximized so as to tack very close to the deck and have the head very close to the halyard block at the top of the mast. This sail would also have a very round shape with lot's of area across the sail up high.

For you, I might suggest the following ways to make the sail easier to operate over the widest range of conditions. First, adjust the luff measurement to account for your desire to see under the sail to steer. This may raise the tack off the deck 4 or 5 feet. Next, allow for the room the ATN sock will need between the head and the mast block. This may be as much as 2 feet. So your AP...or all purpose sail might be 7 feet shorter than a max height race sail. As to the width, an LP somewhere near 1.6 to 1.7, let's arbitrarily pick 1.65....16 x 1.65 = 26.4 feet...so it could be 2 to 3 feet narrower in that measure. The last thing is the cut. The All Purpose will be a cut that is a compromise between running and reaching. It will be most happy at apparent wind angles between 100 and 130. Carrying it above 100 or so, you will be happy if you choose the heavier construction and below 130 or so the heavier construction will make it harder to fly. In any breeze above 100 degrees you will most likely roll out your genoa and strike the A sail. Lower than 130 or so if the wind is light you will most likely motor.

Most folks with cruise boats think this sail will let them go almost downwind in light air without needing the engine. Most folks get disappointed as the weight, design. bottom condition, prop choice on their boat and many other factors all work against this. There are a great many boats 10 years and older for sale with almost unused asymetric spinnakers for this among other reasons.

When you place your order, perhaps you might consider posting the approximate cost as well as the weight of the cloth and the square feet of the sail. Hope you have fun both making and flying the sail!

121 Guy
 

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.......Most folks with cruise boats think this sail will let them go almost downwind in light air without needing the engine. Most folks get disappointed as the weight, design. bottom condition, prop choice on their boat and many other factors all work against this. There are a great many boats 10 years and older for sale with almost unused asymetric spinnakers for this among other reasons......
I think this is very true... for most cruising boats an A sail really doesn't do much for DDW situations. And even island hopping in the eastern Caribbean where the wind angles (heading south) are generally pretty good, wind strengths are such that the boat moves well with a jib or genoa (more often reefed than not)

In areas of lighter breezes like the PNW in summer an A sail will do well if you're crossing Georgia Strait on a light air day but the breeze will likely be on the beam. Travelling up and down the coast, though, usually means you're either beating or going DDW and the A sail, especially if there's slop, doesn't really fit the bill.

We have stuck with the traditional symmetrical spinnaker for this reason.. better downwind courses & speed and fewer gybes. Fortunately we have a lot of experience and a manageable boat. Here's where a frac rig shines in keeping the loads down on all the foresails.
 

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In some cases, dead downwind wing on wing is faster than trying to fly an AS too! or two jibs flying side to side poled out!

I will admit tho, like in the pics in the other thread, when the wind is about 120, it can get fun with an AS, as shown, the apparent is just forward of my beam with the speed I was going. Dead downwind, not good, hence why I will be picking up a sym chute for racing, and other reasons as Faster pointed out for sailing here in the PNW.

Marty
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Thanks for all the info.....

That all makes sense now with regards to the shape....

So what kind of wind angles can I expect from the AS? Some claim that you can use them from 70 to 170. Is that way out of line. I figure that it would be less than that but was not really sure.

My goal for this sail is for one, give me a downwind sail (I know it won't do DDW). And second, give me a lighter wind sail for other points of sail up to as far as it will fly....70-80?

Are my expectations wrong? light air sail from angles 80-160

Or is it really only efficient on a particular wind angle range.

The J value of my boat is 17'
The I (mast height) is 53.75

This is the kit......
Hunter 40 Asymmetrical Cruising Spinnaker Kit, SKR cut, Nylite 90 Ripstop nylon, luff 53'7", foot 28'0.5", leech 52'9".

Looking at theses numbers again it looks almost like a symetrical, not much difference in the leech and luff...

Thanks again
 

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A Sail

So this Hunter 40 Sailrite kit works out to be a little over 1100 sq feet and measures 165%LP. That's just the middle of the road size my previous post recommended. With a bag it costs just about $1,800...before shipping and and any dickering. If you want them to assemble it they ask for an extra $1,600.

Just for grins the North Direct site quotes $2,060 for a finished Size 56 sail in 1.5 oz cloth. This sail is just a little larger at 1260 sq feet. This price is also before shipping and any dickering. In addition to having the sail completely and professionally sewn, you get a real nice launching bag with a velcro closure top with head tack and clew velcro straps as well as some handles and snap shackles. These can be ordered in special colors with the only penalty being delivery time. For a Size 52, also in 1.5 oz cloth, they quote $1900 and that sail is 1090 sq feet.

I'm not affiliated with North at all and am using their site to give you one of many options to consider. Having sewn large spinnakers, and made the type of bag North offers, it would be hard to see how the self labor pays. I'm guessing it will take an amateur tailor somewhere around 50 hours to construct this sail and bag.

You may want to also consider the warranty many sail makers offer should there be a material defect of some kind.

In this market you may find that a nice chat with one of the major lofts can get you exactly what you are looking for....at almost the same as a DIY.

Good luck,

121 Guy
 
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