We bought a 55 ft blue-water boat so that we could cross oceans. We usually stayed in a location for months until the insurance policy said we had to move to avoid hurricanes.

An example was 6 months in French Polynesia and then a 2,700 nm trip to New Zealand to avoid cyclones and then a year in NZ.

40,000nm in 11 years

 

We bought a 55 ft blue-water boat so that we could cross oceans. We usually stayed in a location for months until the insurance policy said we had to move to avoid hurricanes.

An example was 6 months in French Polynesia and then a 2,700 nm trip to New Zealand to avoid cyclones and then a year in NZ.

40,000nm in 11 years

Impressive!!! So insurance was your driving influence. Interesting.

 

We haven't crossed an ocean yet, but do regularly take 4-8 day passages to get to where we want to spend more time. Some of these are more than a day or two from land (and land isn't necessarily safety for many areas). So I don't know if that is considered cruising or passaging by your definition.

What motivates us to move is varied - insurance requirements, weather, boredom, carefully made plans.

We do the bigger 4-8 day jumps every 2-3 years, and smaller 2-4 day jumps a couple of times each year.

We planned our boat for this type of cruising, as well as ocean crossing in the future.

Mark

 

Guess I don’t really qualify to speak here, but I will anyway and the OP can ignore. I’ve yet to cross an ocean, and our “passages” have been mostly close to land, although there have been a couple where land is more than a day away. I don’t see the proximity to land as being much of tipping point really.

In any case, to me a passage is just that — a distance one travels to get somewhere. Some live for the passage, some for the destination. I suspect most cruisers are somewhere in the middle, or rather embrace both as part of the whole.

Our pattern is to travel large distances every few years (many hundreds to a few thousands). Then we stay in that area and explore the physical and human geography. We’ve done this four times so far, and each time we stay about four years.

In fact we just completed a “passage” where we sailed around the northern peninsula of Newfoundland so as to relocate from the west side to the east side. This was probably our shortest “passage” (~600 nm), but possibly our hardest one from a sailing/anchoring perspective.

 

In any case, to me a passage is just that - a distance one travels to get somewhere. Some live for the passage, some for the destination. I suspect most cruisers are somewhere in the middle, or rather embrace both as part of the whole.

Our pattern is to travel large distances every few years (many hundreds to a few thousands). Then we stay in that area and explore the physical and human geography. We've done this four times so far, and each time we stay about four years.

Mike, I believe you are fully qualified to answer my original question, and I appreciate your input. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. My personal definition of a "passage" at this point in my sailing career is to take my little Catalina 22 to the far end of the lake and camping out for the weekend. Not exactly pushing the limits of cruising, but I do try and unplug from the dock life by hitting my nav marks, making my meals, filtering water, and utilizing my solar system (Read baby-steps).

 

I have never heard this definition of passages. I have always understood passages to mean any voyage where the primary purpose was traveling between two distinct locations while a tansoceanic passage was exactly that, a transoceanic passage.

Any way, yes I bought my boat with passage making in mind. I like cruising in different areas, but get bored on multi day passages. So I bought a trailer sailer, which allows me to cover big distances on the highway, train or ship (yet todo this, but would like to visit UK, for example one day, by shipping my boat).

So basically, my boat was selected, specifically to avoid the necessity of long passages.

In my former career as a navigator, my working life was pretty much continuos passage making, whoch is how I know it isn't really my thing. Its a big wet desert out there.

I don't think I am alone either, because even many cruisers who claim to love passage making insist on the importance of having the biggest fastest boat possible so they can get the experience over with as quickly and in the most possible comfort and isolation from the sea as they can manage.

 

I have never heard this definition of passages. I have always understood passages to mean any voyage where the primary purpose was traveling between two distinct locations while a tansoceanic passage was exactly that, a transoceanic passage.

I don't think I am alone either, because even many cruisers who claim to love passage making insist on the importance of having the biggest fastest boat possible so they can get the experience over with as quickly and in the most possible comfort and isolation from the sea as they can manage.

Perhaps "passage" wasn't the correct word to use in this circumstance, but you got exactly what I was meaning by it.

 

It was my dream to circumnavigate ever since I read Slocum's book @ around 12, but I knew I was going to be a seafarer in one form or another since I was about 6.
I bought my first big boat (49') @ 22 and set off to cross oceans. But it was the wrong boat. A TransPac racer did not a cruising boat make, especially when one had to stow 22 bags of racing sails and have a bunk to sleep in. So we traded her for a 65' gaffer, slowed down and got comfortable at sea.
What I enjoyed the most about the long ocean crossings was the safety and security I felt at sea. We had everything we needed and were usually a tight knit crew, all with the same motivation, within a few days. Rarely did we reach the end of a crossing and we didn't feel like continuing on instead of stopping. This went on for 30 some odd years, doing deliveries and operating vessels for owners across oceans, but it became more and more tiring as I grew older, though GPS, roller furling and other advances made it all so much easier.
These days I'm perfectly happy to sit on the pick at night and get a complete night's rest. Skipping Stone can usually do around 80 miles in daylight, so there are few runs in the eastern Caribbean we can't manage in daylight. We do overnights now and then (to Trinidad and back mostly), and really enjoy them, but I really do not desire to do another ocean crossing. Not today, anyway.

 

Good topic!

Obviously you're get a range of responses. Here's mine.

Because of work etc... cruising ie time on the boat is "time limited"... mostly weekends... extended weekends/holidays and vacations. How far you can get depends on the usual factors including getting back to your car/life on dirt. You can move the boat quite a distance in hops... but for me the problem was ground transportation back to my car.

So find a homeport with a lot of great places reachable in a weekend or extended weekend. Maine for me was 400 miles... a vacation length trip. Did it multiple times but not enough.

I decided to take a sabbatical from my profession so the time was no longer a problem. I used the opportunity to sail south from NY/LIS to the Caribbean... live aboard full time and cruise from "locally" from island to Island. I was fortunate to meet a GF who kept a lovely Swedish built 36' boat in the Canaies. Flew off to cruise there. I dodged hurricanes by sailing back to LIS and cruising locally then back down to the Caribe. I've down a few deliveries which were ocean passages.

I am now quite familiar with all the LI harbors and many in southern NE... Not as much "discovery" fun... but we have our favorites for different reasons.

 

Have been doing two passages per year. One from New England to eastern Caribbean and one back. Insurance predicates your behavior. Insurance now requires me to have three aboard for passage. Insurance in the “zone” is an obscene amount. Most insurance includes Grenada and some Trinidad as being in the “zone “. Insurance is hard to find as so many companies either folded or left this field. Last year for the first time left the boat in Grenada. It was actually cheaper than yard cost in New England. Next year don’t know what I’m going to do.

The Outbound is hands down the very best passage boat I’ve ever owned and the best mom and pop for long term cruising. Although a 14 year old design would build another one if starting out. Don’t think any of the current offerings match it for our sailing program.

 

May sound snippy, so apologies now, but words do matter in order for you to get the best input. Many people accept the Ocean Cruising Club definition of a passage. Roughly speaking a passage is an uninterrupted transit across the ocean of 1500 nautical miles or greater with land in sight only at upon leaving or final landfall. Believe this definition is used as it implies weather forecasts are only reliable for the first 5 days after leaving. That you are entirely dependent on what preparations you’ve done before leaving. That you must complete the passage in the absence of a break in the passage so therefore without outside assistance beyond that received via communications. It’s that sense of total self reliance and independence that makes passagmaking so magical. As they say” a man who has gone to sea is ruined for land”.
Strongly encourage you to do it before you make any decisions about which boat to buy. If you get hooked you’re done. Your boat decisions become entirely different if you want to do passages. Some have this dream of passagemaking only to find out they hate it. Huge sums, incredible hours spent only to end up dissatisfied. Every passage is markly different. Some a great PIA and struggle. Others immensely satisfying. Do at least a few before deciding.

 

As they say" a man who has gone to sea is ruined for land".

I love this saying, and I do believe it to be true. To me it is ALL about the journey rather than the destination. Having served 22 years on active duty, I have always savored the unknown. I live to challenge myself.

And your advise about crewing during a passage sounds like a great way to really know if I have what it takes.

 

I suppose if you happen to be a member of that yacht club their definition might be authoritative, but for the rest of us I think the definition is much less prescriptive.

For example, the Royal Yachting Association, who many folks also recognise as an authority define a passage as "A passage is a non stop voyage from a departure port/safe haven to a destination port/safe haven". Note, no minimum distance is required. Any uninterupted berth to berth voyage is a passage.

Passage is also used in the collision regulations as well as numerous nautical texts without having any minimum distance attributed to it.

 

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Arcb on this one. It may only be around 900 some odd miles from Bermuda to ST. T., but it sure feels like a passage, in the traditional sense, to me. The same with the trip to Bermuda from anywhere in the US, especially if the Gulfstream is treating you to a bit of it's more unpleasant conditions.
I don't think we can put an exact definition of the word passage in this context, unless we qualify the word with some sort of description such as ocean, coastal or overnight.
How could anyone sail from Newport to the Caribbean and not consider that an ocean passage, whether you stop in Bermuda or not? It's roughly 14 days out of the sight of land, a situation where the crew must be self sufficient and hopefully competent and experienced enough not to require the aide of a rescue service.
I'm sorry, but the Ocean Cruising Club definition of a passage sounds like a bunch of stuck up old sailors who need to feel they have done something extra special by putting their own definition to the word passage.

 

capta

Why are you afraid to agree with Arcb?

 

I think I'll go with Webster on this one: "a specific act of traveling or passing especially by sea or air." Clubs can impose their own definition as befits their members. Doesn't really matter to the rest of us.

 

I found a definition from a good source. Bowditch: The American Practical Navigator. Very likely the leading text on how to navigate in North America, probably one of the top navigation texts in the world.

1) A navigable channel, especially one through reefs or islands. Also called a PASS.

2) A transit from one place to another, one leg of a voyage.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_American_Practical_Navigator

 

My question to the forum is how often do you do passages to get to different cruising grounds? And what influences your decision to do a passage? Did the length and type of sailboat you purchased affect that decision? Was the length and type of sailboat you purchased based on the idea that at some point you will do passages or not?

My passages this season have all been three nautical miles between two harbors and that is enough for me these days. I've done many extended cruises in my younger days and just do not see the need to repeat those trips. My boat is a 30 foot catboat that is considered to be a good coastal cruiser. A number have crossed the Atlantic and others have participated in the Marion Bermuda race. Others have traveled to the Caribbean and back. I've taken the boat from Long Island to Canada. Where I sailed across Lake Ontario into the Thousand Islands area and back. Plus all over the northeast up to Boston, Nantucket, Newport etc... I did have plans to take the boat south in winters but, they have faded with age and the fact that my gal likes to do Catamaran charters in winter. There were some spots I still wanted to visit by boat and I have been able to do that by arranging a charter for myself. Long ocean passages no longer interest me. A sail to a nearby port that I can plan in the drop of a hat is most enjoyable and comfortable for me these days. I'll rent a mooring for a few days and dine ashore or cook on board as is my wish. I plan to get there before the crowds and enjoy the watching the couples as they pick up the moorings around me. It's fun to observe those who have the communication skills to pick up the moorings without a word being spoken and those who need to yell and make several attempts. When the tide and weather window is right I make plans to head back. Because the distances are not long I don't get fatigued or bored and enjoy the trip in each direction.

 

"Passages" are what you do to get to the "cruising" area you want to be in. No matter how long the passage is, the boat of course was considered where purchasing. The real question is the level of fear that went into that choice consideration.

 

Ok stand corrected. Understand my view is idiosyncratic. Sorry it was not taken the way I thought it would be and apologize.
The OCC definition is to determine who can join. There are many peoples of all ages in that group. My understanding is very few are members of any traditional yacht club as there’s no benefit to being in one as you wander around. As with all groups like this the administration is dust farters but the membership seems to be a pretty active sailing group.
Have done a bunch of Bermuda races. Also it’s a common bail out point if stuff goes wrong on the way to the Antilles. It feels very different to do that race knowing that pretty much what ever breaks or how you feel it will be over soon and you’ll be back on land. Hell, you could not eat for that entire trip and still be fine.
What I wanted to point out (and still think in spite of the above posts ) is there’s a fundamental difference between a transit of 5 dayside less and a longer passage. There’s a fundamental difference between always being in sar helicopter distance and being on your own. I know my insurance broker thinks there is. Since I started sailing and at present you get a different policy, premium, crew requirements, boat requirements, vetting process on the owner and operators if you sail coastal or not. As long as you are within 250 nm of land they don’t use the word passage. They don’t care who’s on the boat. You don’t submit crew resumes . You pay coastal rates. Other than arguments about valuation they don’t care about getting surveys. Once you are outside that limit things change for them. They think you’re on passage and the risks are different. I think their thinking is bogus as I think coastal is more difficult and dangerous.
But I still think passagemaking means crossing oceans. Will back down on how you what to define it but know it feels different. Maybe it’s the point were the routine of the boat becomes your natural routine and it’s no longer an interruption in the usual day to day because it’s the usual day to day.

 

There's a fundamental difference between always being in sar helicopter distance and being on your own.

This is more a factor in where specifically one is passagemaking. I don't think there is much of the cruising Northern hemisphere Atlantic, for example, that is out of SAR range, even if crossing the ocean. On the other hand, I think there is a lot of popular coastal cruising in the world outside of SAR range.

Other than arguments about valuation they don't care about getting surveys.

This is not true at all. Every insurance company I've ever contacted (many, many of them) require a vessel survey for coverage regardless of ocean crossing or live aboard in a marina. Many of them require resurvey every so often too.

But I still think passagemaking means crossing oceans. Will back down on how you what to define it but know it feels different. Maybe it's the point were the routine of the boat becomes your natural routine and it's no longer an interruption in the usual day to day because it's the usual day to day.

Boston to France is ~1,000nm shorter than Boston to Brazil. It can't be about crossing an ocean - those are arbitrary stop/end points that are only defined by containing land masses and direction of travel, and not distance or challenge.

For me, natural routine returns on the morning of day 4 on passage. Overnights are fine; I hate 2-3 day passages (although make many of them); normalcy returns days 4+. Most likely this is a personal thing WRT circadian rhythms, etc, and differs person to person.

Mark

 

I don't think it's meant as some min # of miles. For me an ocean passage is in a ocean or sea... and out of sight of land for the majority of time.... which should be numbered in days. NE- Bermuda is a passage. Camanche did it in 2 days +. I did it in 4.5 days +... Many boats can be fitted out of these sorts of passages. Some require a lot of refit... others less because they are built almost ready to go for that sort of sailing. This is not rocket science.



'

 

This has been a fun posting, I have enjoyed reading about your journeys. I do find it a bit disturbing that regardless of what a sailor calls a passage, the technical definition is being driven by some pencil-pushing insurance agent. I get it that today's sailboats are massive investments in capital but also they are massive investments of our lives. The one thing that I absolutely have not read is there are no regrets at all about the choices you have made. I can see the love of your vessel, love of the seas, and love for your journeys. I congratulate all of you and look forward to my offshore journeys and adventures.

 

Insurance...
Seems to be an elephant in rhe room for many

 

OB, all you’re doing is stating the obvious: some ‘passages’ are harder than others. Some come with different challenges than others. But this is true of any journey. Clearly heading off across an ocean brings certain challenges, some great some small. So too with coastal hopping, or shorter jumps, or just weekend cruising. Seems silly to try and make one greater and one lesser. They are different. And allowing insurance companies to define what we do is even more — undesirable.

GLausin, you’re right to push back on letting those "pencil-pushing insurance agents” dictate how we cruise. Not all of us allow ourselves to be so corralled.

 

The watch schedule thing is interesting. On commercial boats, used to stand a lot of 6on 6 off watches. Usually for 30 days at a time, once for 90 days. Most commercial vessels continue fire/gangway/anchor watches when in port/anchor, so the cycle doesn't stop until crew change.

Very different rythm from the short watch cycles often adopted on recreational boats.

 

Interesting… we've played with various watch rotations. I prefer a longer period, but my partner likes shorter. We've settled on a 4-hour watch, which seems OK. But the longest continual passage we've done is three days. And we only sail with the two of us … never taken on crew, and no interest in doing so.

Might be interesting to hear what others do.

 

I’m totally pissed about how things have evolved in so many features of our lives both on land and sea. Believe the desire for profit and control is increasingly cloaked in the obscuration of benign intervention or surveillance supposedly for our benefit. Given our behavior is monitored by our smart devices (what we buy,read, where we go) our news input, ads, and offered options are to some measure predetermined. Our decisions about how to live and what to do increasingly can only occur within defined limits.
Earlier in life I would take insured vessels out by myself and sail east. Then sail west. No landfalls just go back from where I came. Goal was simply to get off the shelf into the open ocean and get the healing and emotional centering the sea gives you. Be in the world god made not that of man. Now, although I’m on a stronger, better boat, have more skills, more experience and are better prepared I need two others with me who are pre vetted by the insurance company. As recently as 2 years ago insurance placed NO crew requirements on me. I could even go Newport BVI by myself. Now I can’t get a US owned US based US administered insurance company at anything approaching a reasonable cost. The best I can find is US based but claims reported to England with the company ultimately owned by Germans. Saving grace is if there’s a dispute it occurs in US courts. Still it’s now its “special risk” insurance which requires me and two for passage ( 250nm offshore definition) and me plus a vetted crew(my wife) for coastal. I’ve loved single handing. Even now I usually run the boat by myself with crew just being live lumber except on passage. Freedom is being chipped away.
Same on land. Just built a small, self sufficient, zero carbon footprint house. Although on just 1/3 of an acre was required to get permits from
Historical commission (knocked down an abandoned cottage deemed unfit for human occupancy)
Certify no endangered species on this speck of land
Conservation committees ( town, state, fed rules as its inside a park)
Building commission, all abutters (town is an abutter)
EPA (huge hassle as I’ve had to hire a engineer, landscaper and go to innumerable meetings to get certified that no rain water from the property goes into the pond) The property is sand. It percs straight down. It’s a postage stamp. Still the soft costs have been huge. The whole thing ridiculous as we haven’t changed grades and size/placement of the new structure is about the same as the tear down. There was a decrepit dock that had fallen into the pond and rotted. Replacing it was torture. Had to submit plans, show pictures of old dock (fortunately neighbor shared some) and only certain types were approved so could only use an approved vendor.
What I use, how I build, and where I build (exclusion zones etc.) have all needed pre approval. Even drilling the closed loop wells for the geothermal was a PIA. Freedom chipped away.

 

Mike, here is a good article on hours of rest for commercial sailors.

It kind of demonstrstes why 6 and 6 is so popular with commercial vessels all over the world.

Key points are, minimum 10 hours rest in a 24 hour period, and those rest periods should not be divided into more than 2 periods. Basically, commercial sailors have to get, a minimum of 5 hours continuous uninterupted rest in a 24 hour period.

So 6 on, 6 off allows for very lean crew numbers while still giving the crew a decent sleep.

https://www.marineinsight.com/marit...e-law/the-ultimate-guide-to-work-hours-rest-hours-on-ships-including-stcw-2010/

 

Thoughts on watches and insurance

Watch sched needs to allow crew to get the rest they need. 6hrs on watch feels too long and so fatigue and or boredom will set in. Not good. Too short, the off watch has no time to get decent sleep/rest.

When I did a 2 person delivery of 4,000+ miles we did 4 on and 4 off in the evening... and were more flexible during daylight. Conditions impact watch length.

For a 3 person crew... 3 on and 6 off is terrific.

++++

Insurance may be a waste of money for offshore. The likelihood of YOU surviving and the vessel be salvageable for repairs is almost zero. Change of surviving and having a repairable vessel in a "collision" off shore is also almost zero.

Coverage while local cruising "close" to shore where you can encounter other boats and so forth... makes some sense. But you need to evaluate the risk/benefit. I have owned Shiva since 85 and spent 4 yrs out of the USA in the Caribe. I have had no incidents over 34 yrs and more than 50k miles. I am required to have liability insurance at boat yards and marinas where I winter the boat.

Insurance is great idea... but the entire model of insurance seems flawed. We can see how the insurers are part of what's wrong with the health care "industry". I presume it's not that different in the marine industry.

 

Insurance may be a waste of money for offshore. The likelihood of YOU surviving and the vessel be salvageable for repairs is almost zero. Change of surviving and having a repairable vessel in a "collision" off shore is also almost zero.

The problem is unless you are that guy who spent 1000 days sailing a big heart shape path in the Atlantic, your offshore passage is going to end in a relatively short time. It isn't possible to drop coverage for the offshore passage, and pick it up again near shore.

If an insured boat is lost offshore, one gets the insurance money - kind of the whole point of insurance. Lots of people in recent times have lost the boat but not their lives.

Mark

 

My question to the forum is how often do you do passages to get to different cruising grounds? And what influences your decision to do a passage? Did the length and type of sailboat you purchased affect that decision? Was the length and type of sailboat you purchased based on the idea that at some point you will do passages or not?

I haven't had much time so haven't read this thread.

The ones I do are affected by the seasons and visas.

If in the Caribbean and its coming up to summer you have 2 choices: Stay in Grenada boring your sox off or get the hell of a long way north out of the zone.
Similar when in the USA and the visa is about the expire... either head to Canada for a winter or cross the Atlantic to Europe.
The Pacific... as soon as you go through Panama you have a growing hurricane season growing up your butt... you either move on or you get engulfed by the next season.

Mark

 

I have always done 4 on and 8 off with three crew and 3 on and 9 off for four. This allows every crew member a solid sleeping time of at least 6-7 hours. We never vary the watch schedule, never, but the crew off watch are free to do as they wish unless there is work to be done. I've found that the regular rhythms of a set schedule make it easier for everybody to sleep. I also allow the watch stander to set the tone of the watch. That person can ask that he/she be left alone in the cockpit or have others around as their mood dictates. There is always a dedicated cook, with basic meals planned at the time of shopping.
When sailing long distances with just two, with a vane gear or autopilot that actually steers at all times I often do 12 on and 12 off, 2 AM to 2 PM. As the watch stander is not tied to the helm, this isn't a difficult watch and the watch stander can fish, keep a good look out and generally keep themselves busy around the boat. This gives the off watch person plenty of free time and fatigue seems to be minimized.
I do not allow pod casts, music with earbuds, head phones or reading on watch. No more than 12 minutes (the time it would take an 18 knot ship to become a potential collision risk if below the horizon and not seen at minute 1) may be spent below or being inattentive to our surroundings. Single handing I use an old fashioned mechanical kitchen timer for this. This formula has only failed me once and that was a military ship.