[stoomy]

Last fall, I barely avoided putting my boat on the beach due to a mooring failure in a late-season Nor'Easter.

I had high quality, over-sized lines with good chafe gear, but they eventually chafed through.

I was looking at the "New England Ropes Cyclone Mooring Pendant" here:

New England Ropes Cyclone Mooring Pendant

But, it's sort of pricey. I was thinking about making a pair myself from Samson AmSteel-Blue Single Braid.

here:

Samson AmSteel-Blue Single Braid

I'm mostly wondering if the "cyclone Mooring pendant" by NE ropes has some "secret sauce" which makes it better for this purpose.

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

thanks!

 

[mbianka]

Last fall, I barely avoided putting my boat on the beach due to a mooring failure in a late-season Nor'Easter.

I had high quality, over-sized lines with good chafe gear, but they eventually chafed through.

I was looking at the "New England Ropes Cyclone Mooring Pendant" here:

New England Ropes Cyclone Mooring Pendant

But, it's sort of pricey. I was thinking about making a pair myself from Samson AmSteel-Blue Single Braid.

I'm mostly wondering if the "cyclone Mooring pendant" by NE ropes has some "secret sauce" which makes it better for this purpose.

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

thanks!

Yeah they do have a secret sauce in the making of that pendent. It's called a "Marketing Department". I don't see any reason why you could not make your own if you have the ability. Splicing is not rocket science. Though if you wanted to dot the i's and cross the t's it might behoove you to purchase the ready made item. Insurance company might give you a bit of hard time if your homemade one fails and your boat lands on the shore.

IMO it looks like a good thing to have on board whether home made or purchased. After Hurricane Sandy I found my boat 1,000 feet from where I left it on the mooring. It was still floating and relatively undamaged and still attached to the mooring. If I had added something like this Cyclone pendent prior to the storm it might have stayed put and not been picked up by the storm surge.

 

[hellosailor]

Sounds very much like the urethane-coated "...eliminating friction at the chock it reduces heat-generated failures." is the secret sauce. Not just the Dyneema braid, but the big black sleeve they have around it.

Dyneema or Amsteel, bare through the chock, might not do as well.

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

Rope is rope. It will always be able to chafe.

Buy chain.

It dont chafe.

 

[hellosailor]

Isn't chain running through your deck chocks just a wee bit noisy? Not to mention, a bit hard on the chocks?

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

Isn't chain running through your deck chocks just a wee bit noisy? Not to mention, a bit hard on the chocks?

You can buffer that with rages. But you defiantly wont have chafe.
Whats worth more?

 

[hellosailor]

"You can buffer that with rages. "
I don't see how losing one's temper will help. (VBG)

 

[Stumble]

There is no secret to the pendants. They are just large diameter dyneema with eye splices in either end. The advantage of this system is that 1) dyneema is the most abrasion resistant line going so it has a huge advantage in the first place 2) by effectively eliminating stretch the pendant eliminates the major cause of chaff. Since most chaff is caused by the line stretching, and rubbing across a hard point as it does, the fact that dyneema of this size effectively doesn't stretch keeps this movement to a bare minimum.

And chain is far weaker than required for this application. Or to be more acurate the size and weight of the chain required is not reasonable.

 

[hellosailor]

Plain dyneema could be a fast disaster here for the reason stated in that product page. It permanently DEGRADES, WEAKENS, and will FAIL from heat damage at 150F. That's easily reached in chafing situations. (Chaff being what you throw out the back of your boat when trying to confuse incoming radar-guided missiles, btw.(G)

This was quite an issue in nylon tubular webbing failures in climbing harnesses ("diapers") in the 70's, when they were failing for unknown reasons until someone pointed out that the heat of a line running through a metal harness bit was enough to send it into thermal failure. Or perhaps in the ropes, not the harnesses, I didn't take notes beyond "Memo: Heat kills".

That's also supposed to be the reason NOT to use the popular "old fire hose" as chafe protection. Works just fine, as long as it isn't really getting chafed and heated at the same time. And any dirt or salt crystals in the fibers will generate more heat, as well as tiny sharp edges.

 

[Stumble]

Plain dyneema could be a fast disaster here for the reason stated in that product page. It permanently DEGRADES, WEAKENS, and will FAIL from heat damage at 150F. That's easily reached in chafing situations. (Chaff being what you throw out the back of your boat when trying to confuse incoming radar-guided missiles, btw.(G)

Not quite. The thermal limit is 150C not 150F. With the limit for a working temprature of 130C. If your docklines get this hot you have other issues.

 

[hellosailor]

OK, Stumble, file your complaint with Defender at the URL the OP posted for the product. It says:

"HEAT: Dyneema™ has a melting point of 300 Degrees F with progressive strength loss above temperatures of 150 Degrees F. "

Could easily be wrong, but in that case, I think NER owes us BOTH at least one PAIR of these products, in exchange for correcting such an egregious error before it destroys their sales.

Here's a dime, it's your call.

 

[Stumble]

OK, Stumble, file your complaint with Defender at the URL the OP posted for the product. It says:

"HEAT: Dyneema™ has a melting point of 300 Degrees F with progressive strength loss above temperatures of 150 Degrees F. "

Could easily be wrong, but in that case, I think NER owes us BOTH at least one PAIR of these products, in exchange for correcting such an egregious error before it destroys their sales.

Here's a dime, it's your call.

Measurable strength loss isn't the same as important.

 

[capta]

I've been through a goodly number of cyclonic storms to about 120 knots of direct wind and IMO it doesn't matter what you have as a mooring or anchoring system, if you aren't there to tend it, with enough time, wave action and wind force, nothing will work.
I have found carpet remnants to be the best chaff gear for that kind of severe weather, but attention, replacement and adjustment are needed if you don't want to have the gear wear through.
Even in the tropics (80+ degrees), it may be theoretically possible, but practically, it is highly unlikely with all the wind, sea spray and rain normally associated with a tropical cyclone, that heat will in any way be a factor...

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

"You can buffer that with rages. "
I don't see how losing one's temper will help. (VBG)

Ooops, sorry. "Rags".

I hate iPads!

 

[JonEisberg]

OK, Stumble, file your complaint with Defender at the URL the OP posted for the product. It says:

"HEAT: Dyneema™ has a melting point of 300 Degrees F with progressive strength loss above temperatures of 150 Degrees F. "

Could easily be wrong, but in that case, I think NER owes us BOTH at least one PAIR of these products, in exchange for correcting such an egregious error before it destroys their sales.

Here's a dime, it's your call.

However, since chafe is directly related to the amount of stretch a given rope will be subjected to, I still think that Dyneema is an ideal material for this application, given its minimal stretch... Last July, I rode out the passage of Hurricane Arthur in Martha's Vineyard lying to a snubber made from the NER Cyclone Pendant and a Yale Polydyne mooring line. Not the ultimate storm by any means, but still a pretty good blow. I routinely inspected the snubber for chafe, and could never detect the slightest hint of any heating of the rope...

To the OP, it does appear that NER does indeed apply a bit of a "special sauce" to these pendants I'm pretty happy with mine, have been using it as a component of my anchor snubber for several years now, and it's held up quite well...

Made from New England Ropes STS-12 utilizing 100% the latest Dyneema SK75 fiber, this mooring pendant has an extremely high tensile strength and ultra low elongation. This mooring pendant was developed and used by Nantucket Moorings in conjunction MIT and New England Ropes. The rope is coated with a proprietary tinted vinyl-based formula to enhance durability, improve fiber-to-fiber abrasion, protect from UV, and provide a system for color coding.

 

[JonEisberg]

I've been through a goodly number of cyclonic storms to about 120 knots of direct wind and IMO it doesn't matter what you have as a mooring or anchoring system, if you aren't there to tend it, with enough time, wave action and wind force, nothing will work.
I have found carpet remnants to be the best chaff gear for that kind of severe weather, but attention, replacement and adjustment are needed if you don't want to have the gear wear through.
Even in the tropics (80+ degrees), it may be theoretically possible, but practically, it is highly unlikely with all the wind, sea spray and rain normally associated with a tropical cyclone, that heat will in any way be a factor...

As always, IT DEPENDS...

Nylon rope, for instance, can generate considerable amounts of internal heating as a result of cycling and loading... So, despite its popularity, turns out to be a questionable choice for a snubber, or mooring pendant...

Further investigation with rope manufacturers revealed several startling facts. First, the rated strength of nylon drops by 15 to 20% when it is wet, as compared to the catalog breaking strengths (which are dry rated). Second, when nylon is repeatedly cycled at a high percentage of its breaking strength, typically above 50%, it generates substantial amounts of internal heat. This internal heat degrades the structural performance of the nylon, by as much as half, and is thought to be a common cause of failure at high loads. This internal heating process is worse when the rope is wet.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/dashew-right-rode.pdf

 

[Maine Sail]

I've been through a goodly number of cyclonic storms to about 120 knots of direct wind and IMO it doesn't matter what you have as a mooring or anchoring system, if you aren't there to tend it, with enough time, wave action and wind force, nothing will work.
I have found carpet remnants to be the best chaff gear for that kind of severe weather, but attention, replacement and adjustment are needed if you don't want to have the gear wear through.
Even in the tropics (80+ degrees), it may be theoretically possible, but practically, it is highly unlikely with all the wind, sea spray and rain normally associated with a tropical cyclone, that heat will in any way be a factor...

Maybe you just don't know what to look for? Even after early spring or late fall Nor' Easters, in the cold North East, I find lots of melted nylon pendants. These hard spots lead to more fracturing of the individual threads and premature pendant failure.

This is but one example where the individual strands have become one melted glob..

 

[capta]

Maybe you just don't know what to look for? Even after early spring or late fall Nor' Easters, in the cold North East, I find lots of melted nylon pendants. These hard spots lead to more fracturing of the individual threads and premature pendant failure.

This is but one example where the individual strands have become one melted glob..

Though I have never seen this on a snub or an anchor line, I stand corrected. One question; was there chafe gear or was this line running over the metal chock?

 

[capta]

As always, IT DEPENDS...

Nylon rope, for instance, can generate considerable amounts of internal heating as a result of cycling and loading... So, despite its popularity, turns out to be a questionable choice for a snubber, or mooring pendant...

Alrighty then, please suggest a suitable replacement.

 

[hellosailor]

Stumble, thanks for the chart, it looks like temps have to go up near boiling before there's significant degradation.

But all the pictures and information only seem to confirm what various published reviewers and authors and potential experts at rope manufacturers have been saying for years.

The materials for the rodes, are perfectly satisfactory. The materials used for chafe protection ARE NOT generally satisfactory and will be critical. Maybe when they say firehose and rags are best left at the fire scene...that's the voice of wisdom.

I can think of a number of better ways to reduce chafe, either with chock design or with materials. Of course that means like every other Boat Project it won't be cheap, quick, or easy to do it once and do it right.

Maybe liberally slathering good lubricant over the rode where it passes through the chock should also be added to the list.