[StephenMaturin]

replacement of in-mast furling/new mast

Hi all,

I'm close to making an offer on a Sabre 362. It has in-mast furling. That's one of the main reasons why I haven't made an offer.

Well, come to find out, the owner is currently (as in today), having the mast pulled to be painted and re-installed. And he's paying 14k to do so.

This seems like an ideal opportunity for me to stop this guy in his tracks. Firstly, I don't know why you'd pay 14k to have your mast pulled and then only paint the damn thing. Seems like an opportune time to put a new mast on there with a stack-pack or dutchman system.

Anyhow... I'm looking at the cost of these things and it seems like the 14k the seller is paying comes pretty close to the price of a new mast. Unfortunately, he's got a nice newish tape-drive main on there now, so that's a bit of wasted money unless I can sell it or re-cut it into an standard battened mainsail.

I have 4 questions for you sailnetters:

1. Is there anything else I should have done while the mast is out? I'm already planning to have the mast step inspected and repaired (known issue on some 362's). Should I have new standing rigging done at the same time? Mast-head instruments? What else?

2. Can any cost be recouped by selling the used mast?

3. Can I have the tape-drive furling main re-cut and fully battened for use with a standard mast?

4. Would the boom need to be replaced as well?

Thank you!

 

[tdw]

Hi all,

I'm close to making an offer on a Sabre 362. It has in-mast furling. That's one of the main reasons why I haven't made an offer.

Well, come to find out, the owner is currently (as in today), having the mast pulled to be painted and re-installed. And he's paying 14k to do so.

This seems like an ideal opportunity for me to stop this guy in his tracks. Firstly, I don't know why you'd pay 14k to have your mast pulled and then only paint the damn thing. Seems like an opportune time to put a new mast on there with a stack-pack or dutchman system.

Anyhow... I'm looking at the cost of these things and it seems like the 14k the seller is paying comes pretty close to the price of a new mast. Unfortunately, he's got a nice newish tape-drive main on there now, so that's a bit of wasted money unless I can sell it or re-cut it into an standard battened mainsail.

I have 4 questions for you sailnetters:

1. Is there anything else I should have done while the mast is out? I'm already planning to have the mast step inspected and repaired (known issue on some 362's). Should I have new standing rigging done at the same time? Mast-head instruments? What else?

2. Can any cost be recouped by selling the used mast?

3. Can I have the tape-drive furling main re-cut and fully battened for use with a standard mast?

4. Would the boom need to be replaced as well?

Thank you!

Hi. First up as the owner of a boat with in mast furling a couple of observations.

Would I go in mast as my first option .... probably not.

How do I feel about in mast after x years of ownership .... content.

If you are short handed and like me getting on in years it does make life easier in some respects.

now ... to your questions ...

1. If I was pulling a mast to do all that work then I'd almost certainly redo the standing. I'd most certainly want it checked out in minute detail. Everything else would surely come down to inspection.

2. No idea really but one would think it would not be worth much and where do you store the damn thing while you try and sell it ?

3. Yes you could but but but .... mains for in mast furling are smaller than the original non furling main so it is not really a practical consideration.

4. No.

 

[MedSailor]

Is there a sabre owners association online where you could find a willing owner for a mast swap?

MedSailor

 

[Don L]

I would put the furling unit back on the boat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[StephenMaturin]

Well its good to hear some positive experiences with the RF mains.

I spoke with one rigging company with an outstanding reputation in the PNW and they figure a new mast could be had for around 15k (not including labor, rigging, etc).

Thank you for the input on the non-reusable sail and the non re-sellable mast. Its helpful to dispel those delusions.

Thanks again.

 

[tdw]

I think Don nails it. Not worth the expense of reverting to non inmast.

 

[Rockter]

$14,000 for mast pull and re-paint????

Gold paint, 10 mm thick???

 

[MedSailor]

$14,000 for mast pull and re-paint????

Gold paint, 10 mm thick???

I'd be telling the owner/seller not to repaint it and to just knock 10K off the price. Would make everybody happy right?

MedSailor

 

[miatapaul]

Yea, I think it would be silly to swap out the mast just because you are scared of furling. There are thousands of them out there and being used successfully. I went out last summer on a boat with in mast furling and it seemed to work fine, not my cup of tea but not a deal breaker. If you decide to not use furling there is often a track on the trailing edge, or a place to mount one, to use a standard sail. That way you can try the sail the way it is, if you don't like it mount a sail on the current mast. For one thing any one willing to pay that much for for having a mast painted indicates that they are willing to pay for top notch maintenance and should be considered a plus for sure.

 

[capta]

I've sailed untold miles with our Hood Stoway and I'd never go back to any other system. We've a friend who has just finished a circumnavigation with his and also really likes it.
There is a learning curve to get it just right and unless you are a racer, I think if you consider it a system if infinite reefing possibilities, you might change your mind.
We unfurl or furl on most points of sail from the beam forward; no heading into the wind and flogging our main. I have reefed even off the wind a few times, though slowly I must admit.
If the main is old and baggy, you would be well served to have a new one made, as it would be difficult to learn the system on an old, baggy sail.
By the way; we love the shape of the tape drive (triradial) but it is a lousy cruising sail material; I'd go with Dacron.
Like the man said; ask for 10k off the price and get a new main made (no battens; nothing fancy).

 

[SimonV]

After sailing with traditional mains and RF mainsail,my next boat will have RF.

 

[capecodda]

Agree with the other posters, keep the RF. We had it on a 52 for 10 years, no problems if you operate it correctly.

Also, IMHO let him paint it. The cost associated with painting the mast is removing everything, painting, then putting it all back. Lot's of labor hours, and everything gets a hard look if he's got a good yard doing the work.

Changing the rigging will be more expensive than you think. There's lots of "stuff" like electronics to move, lights to move, winches, etc.

Would I choose to put a RF main on a 30ish something boat, no. If I wanted a boat that had it would I remove it...no way!

Good luck...nice boat choice BTW.

 

[sailordave]

One moment while I put on my crusty curmudgeon hat...

There. Okay, maybe I'm just grumpy but I really DON'T like in mast furling. And while I have limited experience w/ them I don't like the fact that if it jams when you get caught in a sudden squall you are truly Farked. And I don't like the fact that you lose a bunch of sail area. Or the fact that you've just added a bunch of weight up the mast.

What really kills me are the boats like say, a Bermuda 40, which was kinda slow and under canvassed to begin with, and then they make it more so by putting in mast furling on board.
And I have a hard time believing that vertical or inflatable "battens" are going to make any difference.

PERSONALLY, at this point in my life, if I was looking to buy a boat I would pass on the boat w/ furling main. I don't see it as a plus. That said, I may change my tune as I get older and less capable. And if you're just day sailing or coastal cruising and not as interested in performance... okay, that works for you.

The question is, if you don't like the furling main is there another boat you really like?

 

[Maine Sail]

We owned a boat with in-mast furling and loved it. We now own a boat with standard mast... I would go back, for cruising........

Most of the reliability issues I hear of or see are owner induced due to improper operation. I have many customers with the Hood Stowaway/ Sabre's and none I know of have had any issues and some of these boats go back to the mid 80's.... A tad bit of a performance hit but I think the 362 had a slightly longer boom on the in-mast model to attempt to compensate for the loss in roach...

 

[StephenMaturin]

What a great discussion. Thank you all for your input.

To address the various points brought up:

- The mast is currently out of the boat. Its too late to stop it and save the money. I already tried.

- There is an identical boat for sale in the same area for 30k more with a traditional mast (as well as new cabin upholstery and an overall "cleaner" appearance, but no other substantial upgrades).

- I am a "worst case scenario" person and have envisioned being caught out in a blow and have the main get jammed. There are a few other threads already devoted to this subject in which I've participated. It seems that a reasonable solution would be to wrap the spinnaker halyard around the mast/mainsail to reduce windage while motoring into port, then dealing with it later (not my idea... stolen from another poster). It would suck, but it would avoid a potentially catastrophic event.

- There are indisputable benefits to a RF main, ease of furling being one of them. My wife and I have a 1-year-old and one of us will be chasing him around/keeping him onboard while the other trims the sails.

Anecdote: I distinctly remember being surprised in our old C&C 34+ under full sail by 20kts sustained wind in Elliot bay while my wife was below on a live radio show on her cell phone for work, while getting tossed about and bracing as best she could, while maintaining a calm demeanor (she does PR stuff and it seems she's good at it). Granted, I was... sort of... well... er... "racing"... well, you know, on the same point of sail and all... with a damn pretty 40 footer when the wind picked up... and I wished I could've shortened sail. But, without autopilot, the best I could do was crank the main a little tighter and try to squeeze out a few more .01kts. A furling main would have made that nights anchorage that much more enjoyable. Then again, maybe the lack of sail control would've made it a bummer to try to keep up in the first place.

- lastly, and I'm kind of worried to admit it here given the stigma, but I intend to place this boat into a charter fleet. We moved away from the Puget Sound and my wife and I really miss cruising around there (we miss the beer can races too, but that ship has sailed). We don't want to be absentee boat owners and we want a pro-active maintenance schedule. We also would like to offset moorage and maint with charter income. Our long-term plans are to move back to the area and take the boat out of the charter fleet after 5 years or so. In the mean time, we'd use her as our home-base while scouting out places to live. whew. man, that was hard to let out, but it's a factor in this discussion as well. I don't want some sailing novice to get the sail stuck out upwind of a few rocks. a) that would suck for them, b) even if they had the presence of mind to motor away from the obstruction, the sail would be damaged, and c) Its a potential liability I'd prefer to avoid.

So, thats the real-time situation. I welcome your thoughts, reservations, fears, and support.

 

[capecodda]

Man, now you're confusing me. Hate to see you put a nice Sabre into charter, but I assume that ship has sailed. Nice teak toe rails and stuff.....

I've chartered Bene's with RF mains a few times. The charter operator includes a few minutes of "extra" instruction on how to avoid jams. Given the relative "expertise" of charterers I've seen particularly in places like the BVI's, I assume they cannot be pulling boats off the reefs every day with jammed mains or they wouldn't do it.

In fact, sailing cannot be all that hard as we sometimes make it out to be here, or the BVI's would look something like the aftermath of the Hindenburg disaster every day.

I think you're OK, if that's the boat you want.

 

[outbound]

Think hard on how you are going to use the boat. This should be the first determinate of how you will,proceed. She a great design. If you are going to be a weekend and vacation sailor keep the mast and furling system. If you are going to do PHRF change everything out. If you are going long term cruising go to some version of slab reefing and a main with battens and roach.
Have nothing but headaches with in mast. Not a fan. For transits you will have new crew on the boat.even if you teach them they may not learn and screw it up and jam it. Loss of roach means your slower. Longer passages. Weight in the mast from the mandril and sail is just bad. If the mandril breaks you are screwed royally.
Never had a boat with in mast.never will.have crewed on several boats with them. Maybe Amels got it right but all other owners were disappointed either with function or loss of speed.
Still for daysailing or short hops it's great. Just a second to get sail out so more sailing and more going out by yourself when you just have a hour or two.

 

[StephenMaturin]

Good points about the lack of washed up boats in the BVI. We chartered down in the Grenadines last Feb, and lots of boats had RF mains.

Outbound: I know exactly how I'm going to use the boat. We are in an amazing place in our lives where our kid isn't in school yet, my wife works from home/boat with nothing but a cell signal, and I can get off 1 month stretches periodically. We will do 2-3, 10-day cruises and 1 one-month-long cruise per year. We won't be doing PHRF races, but that doesn't mean that performance doesn't matter. Part of the fun of sailing, for me anyway, is seeing what I can get out of the boat in various conditions. Also, being able to sail upwind while cruising makes the difference between "sailing" and "driving".

Anyway... I think this is enough griping about my "first world problem"... good lord... which mast should I put in my pleasure yacht... wha, wha, wha.

Thanks for the input.

 

[outbound]

Then it boils down to money. If you have tons of it drop price 10-14k. Get cf mast with standard sail shape controls and have a blast as you blow by me.

 

[MedSailor]

Check into how your charter company pays you. The ones I talked to out of Shilshole would pay a standard rate or pay nothing but would take care of moorage and maintenance. They WOULD pay a partial amount of what was collected every time the boat was chartered though. So, if your boat is more desirable to be used, you got more income. If this is the case, I would think a RF main would make your boat much more popular with the folks choosing which boat to charter.

Med