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I have been playing with the idea of a very inexpensive upgrade of a pole.
The question I have will it even benefit me?
Spinnaker poles can see some pretty impressive loads... "Very inexpensive" solutions on a 47' boat are unlikely to end well... :)

Not really sure what you're asking... But if the question is "Do I really need a downwind pole", my answer is "Yes"...

One other question you might consider asking:

"How do I re-size photos to fit the page format?"

:))
 

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Schooner Captain
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2,199 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Spinnaker poles can see some pretty impressive loads... "Very inexpensive" solutions on a 47' boat are unlikely to end well... :)
All up it should be under one boat unit, I guess its relative to all of my five boat unit upgrades.
Not really sure what you're asking... But if the question is "Do I really need a downwind pole", my answer is "Yes"...
Do you think it would give me power beyond what two sails wing and wing would give me? Wouldn't it be shadowed by the mainsail?
One other question you might consider asking:

"How do I re-size photos to fit the page format?"

:))
Fits my screen fine :laugher
 

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Administrator
Farr 11.6 (Farr 38)
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9,754 Posts
You image shows why ketches and schooners or most split rigs for that matter, arei very inefficient rigs down wind. The secret of decent down wind performance is maximizing projected sail area outside of the slipstream of other sails. With the total sail area broken into three parts one part will always be in the bad air of another. Adding a spinnaker and pole only for DDW will benefit you less than someone with a more effective rig design, but it would help some since the head of the chute would project outboard and above the dirty air from the other sails. The real gain from a chute would be on deep reaches where all three sails are in comparatively clear air but the apparent wind speeds are dismissed by boat speed.
 

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Schooner Captain
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2,199 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You image shows why ketches and schooners or most split rigs for that matter, arei very inefficient rigs down wind. The secret of decent down wind performance is maximizing projected sail area outside of the slipstream of other sails. With the total sail area broken into three parts one part will always be in the bad air of another. Adding a spinnaker and pole only for DDW will benefit you less than someone with a more effective rig design, but it would help some since the head of the chute would project outboard and above the dirty air from the other sails. The real gain from a chute would be on deep reaches where all three sails are in comparatively clear air but the apparent wind speeds are dismissed by boat speed.
Then I guess the question is, would the $1000 be better spent elsewhere?
What I like about the schooner so far is that in very light air I can make the boat move quickly with winds abeam.
I am still missing my one sail.
 

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Administrator
Farr 11.6 (Farr 38)
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I can't answer your question 'would the money be better spent elsewhere?' Since I have no idea what else your boat needs besides a paint job on your masts and new working sails before too long if those are recent pictures.

But, As you note, schooners and ketches(like your boat) are at their best when essentially beam reaching. On deeper reaches they can be helped by mizzen stay sails and spinnakers. If you own a spinnaker then a pole will help and so is worth the money.
 

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Schooner Captain
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I can't answer your question 'would the money be better spent elsewhere?' Since I have no idea what else your boat needs besides a paint job on your masts and new working sails before too long if those are recent pictures.

But, As you note, schooners and ketches(like your boat) are at their best when essentially beam reaching. On deeper reaches they can be helped by mizzen stay sails and spinnakers. If you own a spinnaker then a pole will help and so is worth the money.
We do have a spinnaker, I have not flown it yet. Too afraid of it.
I plan to get a single new dacron sail, but the sails I have now have been inspected and found to be in good condition. We will have one new one made, and will be buying a used one for a second spare. We will basically have an entire head full of sails, lol.

I am going to paint the mast, but just with a rattle-can. I wish they were unpainted, but oh well.
I could use the $1000 to paint the hull black :p
Seriously, we will not leave until the projects are all done, but $1000 will make us leave that much sooner, or have more money to stay out longer, but if it is saving us a day per 30 on a passage, thats worth it.
 

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Without knowing what sails you already have its pretty much impossible to guess what would help the most. But generally my recomendation is for a genniker flown in front of the forestay.
 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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I think you will find a large number of occasions where you will be broad reaching. As was pointed out, this is not a good point of sail for a divided rich. I would think with just the main and mizzen in any wind you will find that you have quite a bit of weather helm.

You don't need a pole but will find that life is much better with one. Not to complicate the finances any more, but you will probably want to mount the pole to a track on the mast. Even with your rig the pole on a 47' will be heavy (I assume we are not talking carbon fibre) and you do not want the hassle of hoist the pole from chocks on deck. Hard enough in the harbour, could be impossible or dangerous at sea. Sorry, don't know, but do you (or is your wife) have really strong upper bodies with excellent balance. If not, a pole that is on a track makes life really easy. Our pole is about 17' and 5" diameter. The outboard end of the pole lives just above deck level. We rig a topping lift and preventers to it and then slide the inner end down the mast while we move the outer end toward the bow. Not too hard to do, especially if the self-steering is on, and then there four hands to control various lines and the end of the pole.
 

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Old as Dirt!
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3,488 Posts
Considering that your poor, ill-cared for, mast is not fitted with the gear you'd need to mount a spinnaker pole; and, considering that such equipment would likely cost about as much as a properly sized pole (or more); and, considering that most couples are not likely to be able to handle the gyrations necessary to launch a pole mounted chute and recover it anyway, a better option would be the purchase of an ATN Spinnaker Tacker coupled with an ATN Sock for the chute. With these and a little practice/OTW Training you'd be good to go save DDW which, with most all sails isn't the fastest point of sailing n'any case. With the tacker you can efficiently carry the sail down to about 150º and although you'll sail somewhat further over a designated run, the effective VMG more than makes up for the added distance. If my (much) better half and I can handle a 1500SF Spinnaker on an Ex-IOR race boat with such equipment, it should be no problem for you on yours, No?
 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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We fly a big asymmetric, but not at night. On a long passage a poled out genoa is nice to have. You can leave it up for days at a time. We had an interesting approach coming through the ITCZ approaching Brazil. For about three days we had the asymm up on one tack during the day. At night we had a poled out genoa on the other tack. We left the pole up the whole time and just furled the sail during the day. It actually worked pretty well.
 

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██▓▓▒▒░&
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Perhaps you could help me, my translator has taken the week off.

You are going to spend $1000 upgrading your spinnaker pole?? What does that mean, putting quick-release jaws on it? Or...What??

Then it might be possible to take a guess at whether the mysterious upgrade was worthwhile.

Generally, singlehanding a big spinnaker on a big boat is a bery bad idea. There are all sorts of ways that huge amount of power can do incredibly fast and extensive damage to the sail, the crew, and the boat. Selling the existing pole and buying the sail you mention that is still missing, might be even more effective. Certainly safer.
 

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Master Mariner
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If you are thinking of long downwind sails under your two boomed sails, I think you will find that rig almost unmanageable. It is always best to use head sails to 'pull' the boat downwind, rather than using the boomed sails wing and wing.
By far the best, most comfortable and most functional downwind rig is double head sails, both on furlers, both on poles, so I'd have to say, yes you should have at least one pole, if not two, if you are planning long downwind passages.
 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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4,526 Posts
I think you would quickly find that annoying with the pole in the way all the time, for example when you are anchoring. Will you ever be storing a dinghy on the foredeck? I think you might want to go shopping for used gear. Forget the name of the big place in Fort Lauderdale. They could provide track, pole, and fittings pretty cheaply I imagine.
 

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1982 Skye 51
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are you sure that you have a spinnaker and not a gennaker/asymmetrical spinnaker? lots of times these two terms are used interchangably when there is a huge difference. you might have an asym, in which case a pole is not necessary, and just need to try flying it...
 

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Schooner Captain
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
are you sure that you have a spinnaker and not a gennaker/asymmetrical spinnaker? lots of times these two terms are used interchangably when there is a huge difference. you might have an asym, in which case a pole is not necessary, and just need to try flying it...
Its a gennaker/ asymmetrical, not a spinnacker. It does have a sock.
 

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I asked myself the same thing about a whisker pole. I answered me "No!" and went about making one from a boat pole, a number of clips, eye bolts and the like. The geometry and function was flawless. I congratulated myself on my unsurpassesd skill and craftmanship. I even bought me a beer. Then I took my new whisker pole out for a test sail. I couldn't wait to sail downwind! I clipped it on, hauled on the jib sheet and it functioned beautifully. I was elated. Then the wind picked up. That thing was flexing more than my neck at a California beach with the same looming bodily harm; sudden death at the hands of a woman.

I know my whisker pole on my 25 is a whole lot smaller than your spinnaker pole on a 45 but the loads are identical in nature just proportionate. You can certainly build a pole that will funtion well but be sure to take into consideration the immense compression it will see. It would probably be best it you bought a real one.
 

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Mermaid Hunter
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a better option would be the purchase of an ATN Spinnaker Tacker
I strongly disagree. The ATN Tacker is a solution looking for a problem. A much better investment is a tack line run back to the cockpit. With very little practice (a bit of reading helps), you can consistently get sail rotation to windward and increase projected area. The ATN Tacker precludes that rotation and loads up the furler foil in a way not intended. A poor choice in my opinion.
 
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