[GaiaOrion]

Hey all,

My wife tells me size doesn't matter, which makes me want to order some pills from late night commercials, but seriously, I am looking for my first boat, and would like one which is stable, sleeps 4-5 and can go for a weeks cruise with all the associated gear, on the Great Lakes, primarily Erie, Ontario and Huron.

Now honestly, I have only been sailing ten- fifteen times, taken one course, and fell in love- so I am not what you might call an accomplished sailor.
I was thinking of something in the 27-28 range, but there are a lot of 30 footers out there as well, is that too big? ; I would like an inboard too.

So, for safety...first, comfort and speed next, what do you recommend?

Thanks in advance, and Cheers.

Mike G.

 

[MarioG]

Hey Mike
I think a 25to 30 footer would be the right size for what your looking for.

Because of the time of the year you can find great deals that need a little tlc, depending on budget and skill, if you have a boat on the hard for a short time will give the opportunity to learn about the boat and anything else to get out sailing.

 

[killarney_sailor]

Size can matter or not

This is a more complex question than it might appear at first glance. First of all not all boats of the same length are the same size boat. In many ways you might be better to consider the displacement of the boat rather than the LOA when you are thinking about things like carrying capacity, stability and often cost.

Sailors accept the truism that every boat is a compromise between opposing choices: such as speed vs carrying capacity, cost versus quality of construction, the performance that a deep keel gives versus the fact that this type of keel can limit your access to many harbours (especially on the Great Lakes).

You might want to consider establishing a budget, keeping in mind that what matters is the total cost after you the boat equipped the way you want rather than the purchase price. Also think about where you will keep your boat, what size boat (length, beam and draft) can they handle.

It is a complex choice and a beginner is not at all likely to choose a boat that will be a perfect fit for their needs. You might be better off buying something a bit smaller and not very pricey so that you learn about sailing and about what features you really want. In a couple of years you will have a much better idea of what you want, including does size matter (to you and your wife)

 

[MikeinLA]

First, I would ask what kind of boats you have been sailing for your 10-15 times out. That might give you some ideas about what size feels comfortable for you. If I were you, I would be looking for a late model coastal cruiser such as Catalina, Hunter, etc which will give you a lot of interior space and be easy to sail at the same time. Also, a fin keel boat like that will be easy to dock which seems to be the scary part for most folks. My Catalina 36 handles like an MGB roadster. You get into full keels and such and you will find them much harder to handle under power in close quarters. You seem to have a clear idea of what you want to do which should keep you from buying "too much boat" to start out. Oh, and since you are just starting out, the Hunters & Catalinas sell very quickly if you decide to move up in a few years. Good Luck & have fun,

Mike

 

[nissantwa]

Size matters

I'd start out with a Laser. Sail it for a Summer. Great lakes can get hairy in a hurry and if you master those conditions with a small boat, you can sail a big boat. If you start out with a 27' boat, you'll make mistakes and they'll be expensive, dangerous and frightening. Best to learn to sail in something that will punish you for your mistakes, rather than kill you.

 

[Faster]

Conventional wisdom has usually promoted "start small, learn easy, move on up" but today's sailors don't really seem to be adhering to that philosophy. With a high level of disposable income (either that or ZERO fear of debt) many beginners are starting at 30, 35 and even up to 40 footers for "first boats".

In some cases they may have had chartering experience, but not across the board. It could be argued that with the right gear the differences are not all that great if you ignore cost.

We did it the conventional way, 24, 28, then 40... now we're on the backslide at 35. Do what your confidence and your wallet allow!

 

[Valiente]

I made the same mistakes in my first boat (a 33 footer) than I would've made in a smaller boat, only once docked I got to stand up to pee.

I certainly don't regret it, because dealing with "mid-sized" forces on gear and muscle allowed me to graduate more easily to a 41 footer we own now.

However, you have to determine your use of the boat. I know of some very cozy Grampian 26s that sail...uh...in a stately fashion, but are far more amenable to civilized comforts than my 33 footer, which is practically Spartan. On the other hand, if you are the "cooler and a six pack and a sleeping bag" sort of get-off-the-dock-quickly sailor, an old race boat will give you a fun and instructive ride, presuming it isn't too worn out.

 

[killarney_sailor]

Bigger first boats

Conventional wisdom has usually promoted "start small, learn easy, move on up" but today's sailors don't really seem to be adhering to that philosophy. With a high level of disposable income (either that or ZERO fear of debt) many beginners are starting at 30, 35 and even up to 40 footers for "first boats".

In some cases they may have had chartering experience, but not across the board. It could be argued that with the right gear the differences are not all that great if you ignore cost.

We did it the conventional way, 24, 28, then 40... now we're on the backslide at 35. Do what your confidence and your wallet allow!

It does seem that boat choices are often controlled by budget. We have three sets of friends who are on their first boats - a Sabre 40, a Jeanneau 44, and a Bristol 47.7. The Sabre owners are now looking at a Hylas 49, the Jeanneau couple have tried to buy a Bruckmann 50 and the Bristol owner has gone a different route, he bought a J135 for sailing on days that it is too much trouble to take the big boat out. Different horses for different courses

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

IMHO, I don't think that 5 people and gear will fit in a 28' boat. My second boat was a Newport 28, a standard production cruiser / racer. I bought it because it was the smallest boat that my family of 5 could overnight in (me, my wife, and 3 kids, 5, 8, 11 at the time). The problem was that when you were in sleep mode, there was no room for gear. So you were constantly stepping on things and / or people in order to move around. It was fine for one night, but got old quickly for longer than that.

For a week with 5 people, my 35' O'day is great. Everyone gets a bunk and there is room for gear too.

Regarding learning on a'big' boat, I would prefer to learn on something much smaller, like 22 or under. Docking, leaving the dock, raising, reefing, lowering sail, trimming headsails, etc. all require a lot more skill on a bigger boat. Once you get the hang of it, it's just as easy to sail a bigger boat. BUT, trying to muscle a 12,000 lb. boat to the dock is a lot harder than with a 3000 lb boat.

Good luck,
Barry

 

[MoonSailer]

Four or five for a week??? 30-35' We have a 32' 12,500# boat two couples for a week would be rough..doable yes but 35'+ would work better. Smaller is easier to sail with 22' being a good size in that it handles well but is stable. Also hitting the dock with a 22' 3000# boat is not as traumatic as hitting it with a 35' 18,000# boat. Lasers are great fun but won't teach you much about handling a larger boat. BTDT.

 

[Faster]

....Also hitting the dock with a 22' 3000# boat is not as traumatic as hitting it with a 35' 18,000# boat....

Keep in mind that hitting the dock with anything should not be "plan A"

 

[jason3317]

Choose a boat that will allow you to adapt to conditions in your Great Lakes region and will meet your needs. I say buy once and sail it, rather than trade up every few years. 35 feet or longer, assuming you are comfortable handling a boat this long, is probably the best compromise size for 4-5 for a week.

There is a lot of bang for the buck in the production boats, but I think my preference is always going to lean to a higher quality of build at a somewhat higher cost of entry.

Probably couldn't go wrong with a Catalina 350, or if the budget allows, a Sabre 362. Two boats at pretty opposite ends of the spectrum...as we don't know your $$$ tolerance. Older and cheaper you have a variety of Hunter, Benes and Catalinas, late 80's Pearsons, J-boats (34,35,37), etc.

Good luck

 

[Sapperwhite]

I wouldn't take 4 or 5 people on my 27 footer for a week. My Orion is a big 27 footer too, lots of volume. I have the berths to sleep five, but there is no room for much else. You'll find it more enjoyable for everyone (particullarly you) if you limit the roster to 3 for a weeks time, 4 for shorter periods.

Things to consider with five people for a week is space for food, gear, sleeping, water tankage, and a biggie is space in the holding tank (no dischaging in the great lakes). Five people going to the head a few times a day is going to fill that holding tank up quick.

Besides that, this is my first boat. It doesn't take long to get the hang of it, and given enough time you'll learn all of the nuances of her. Can you do it? Depends on your ability really. I didn't know a whole lot about sailing when I got mine, but once i realized that this was MY BOAT i decided to handle and keep her right. You won't "drive it like it's stolen", unless you're a fool who likes dealing with insurance companies.

The "first boat/ how big boat/ best bluewater boat/ best anything" question is unanswerable. It all depends on you, after all it'll be your boat not ours.

 

[JoeAbb]

We had very limited sailing Experience day sailed 3 times with
some friends on a 42. Our first boat a 1999 Catalina C320 that
we are now at the end of our 2nd season. For a 32 it is a large
boat has a beam of 11' 9'' although it is rated to sleep 7 and you can,
but that is just crazy talk. One other couple is max.
Do not get me wrong we have day sailed with up to 7 people and that
is not a problem. Its all what you and you Significant other are
comfortable with. We bought the boat in New Jersy and hired an ASA
Instructor / Captain to assist and train us while bringing the boat
home to Connecticut. We are now seriously looking at jumping
to A 40-42 foot boat. Good luck take your time looking.

 

[sck5]

I have a caliber 33 which is biggish for a 33. It claims to sleep 7. I would say that you could take out 6 people happily for a daysail. You could take 4 people for a few nights. You could take two happily for a week or longer which is what we bought the boat for. Unless you are teenagers and very much in love with each other and want to sleep on top of each other, you ought to divide whatever they are claiming the boat will sleep at least in half to get closer to the truth.

 

[PalmettoSailor]

I have a caliber 33 which is biggish for a 33. It claims to sleep 7. I would say that you could take out 6 people happily for a daysail. You could take 4 people for a few nights. You could take two happily for a week or longer which is what we bought the boat for. Unless you are teenagers and very much in love with each other and want to sleep on top of each other, you ought to divide whatever they are claiming the boat will sleep at least in half to get closer to the truth.

Some of the boats folks mentioned in this thread are super nice boats like a Caliber 33 which is indeed one of the nicest layouts I've seen in that sized boat and the Sabre 362 which is one of my dream boats. However, 5 folks for a week on any boat that sized is going to be crowded. Its doable, but the enjoyment of such a trip would be highly dependent on the temperment of the 5 folks involved.

We are now sailing a Catalina 36 Mk1 and one of our first longer trips we took a couple we recently became friends with plus one of their friends (female) that we'd never met on a 4 day trip. The C36 being a large 36'er gave everyone enough privacy and elbow room, but I think we'd have been cramped on the Sabre even though they're nominally the same sized boat. I think that trip would have been really cramped on our Oday 322 which like the Caliber 33 has a great amount or room for its size.

As far as worrying about docking, I found it very helpful to spend a lot of time doing slow speed manuvers and docking practice as soon as we got our larger boat. The first time we took it out we spent a about an hour manuvering around our docks, learning to turn around in a fairway, backing up, pulling up to the pump out dock, pulling into and out of our slip. That hour probably amounted to a years worth of docking if you only came a left for each outing. It went a long, long way towards increasing our confidence and consequently our enjoyment of our boat. I highly recommend getting an experienced buddy or sailing instructor to do this with you if you start on a larger boat. In my admitedly limited experience, the only times a boat is too big is when you're docking and when waxing or painting the bottom. Once away from the dock, those worries fade quickly.

PS edited to add that if you can handle a boat with more traditional accomodations and reasonable availablity on the Great Lakes you should also consider a CS36 (Canadian Sailcraft).

 

[MazeRat7]

I passed on the "just under 30' group" for several reasons when buying my boat at the end of July.

First, it had been 15+ years since I had sailed anything over 18' and felt certain I would make costly (perhaps harmful) mistakes.

Second, I wanted something that needed some TLC so I could get back my rigging, repairing, and fretting chops all boats give us.

Finally, I wanted something I could pay cash for and still have enough extra $$$ left over to out fit it like I wanted for single handing.

I ended up with an '83 Catalina 22. While the literature says it sleeps five, no way. Five small children with lunch boxes maybe. But its perfect for the two of us for a couple of nights on a rather challenging lake that is (to date) 34' low with all boats ramps closed.

By the time I'm ready to sell and move up, within the next couple of years, I will have invested as much in "care" as I paid initially for the boat and trailer. The learning (or re-learning) factor to me is priceless. Cat 22's are very easy to sail, forgiving, and a good learning boat. IMHO.

Sure I see the 25's, 27's & 28's right next to me and often second guess my decision to go so small when just getting back in. However, at the end of the day, what I am being forced to re-learn will end up saving me $$$ (translation: mistakes) when I decide to upgrade.

Good luck.
MZr7

 

[PalmettoSailor]

I passed on the "just under 30' group" for several reasons when buying my boat at the end of July.

First, it had been 15+ years since I had sailed anything over 18' and felt certain I would make costly (perhaps harmful) mistakes.

Second, I wanted something that needed some TLC so I could get back my rigging, repairing, and fretting chops all boats give us.

Finally, I wanted something I could pay cash for and still have enough extra $$$ left over to out fit it like I wanted for single handing.

I ended up with an '83 Catalina 22. While the literature says it sleeps five, no way. Five small children with lunch boxes maybe. But its perfect for the two of us for a couple of nights on a rather challenging lake that is (to date) 34' low with all boats ramps closed.

By the time I'm ready to sell and move up, within the next couple of years, I will have invested as much in "care" as I paid initially for the boat and trailer. The learning (or re-learning) factor to me is priceless. Cat 22's are very easy to sail, forgiving, and a good learning boat. IMHO.

Sure I see the 25's, 27's & 28's right next to me and often second guess my decision to go so small when just getting back in. However, at the end of the day, what I am being forced to re-learn will end up saving me $$$ (translation: mistakes) when I decide to upgrade.

Good luck.
MZr7

In terms of making a costly mistake, I think the more likely issue is buying a large boat that you find doesn't have the attributes you really want, than actually damaging the boat due to your inexperience. Especially if you get some brush up training and remember to never approach anything faster than you want to hit it. I think everyone eventually makes a mistake of some magnitude but I rarely hear of anyone doing any truly catastrophic damage docking their boats.

Selling a boat that doesn't suit you and buying another will almost certainly cost you a good bit, especially if you buy new.

 

[AndrewMac]

In terms of making a costly mistake, I think the more likely issue is buying a large boat that you find doesn't have the attributes you really want, than actually damaging the boat due to your inexperience. Especially if you get some brush up training and remember to never approach anything faster than you want to hit it. I think everyone eventually makes a mistake of some magnitude but I rarely hear of anyone doing any truly catastrophic damage docking their boats.

Couldn't agree more! I have had a Pearson Ensign for the past 10 years that I love, but I recently watched my father upgrade from a Pearson 32 to a Baba 40. Why? Because he thought he would start going on longer cruises, it was rigged to single hand by an 82 year old that was retiring from sailing and he was getting a great "deal" on the boat. The problem was that, of the 60 sailing days the boat gets, 50 of them are day sails on Penobscot Bay, usually with several guests - in fact, that's what he loves to do: take people out on the boat for a day sail. Don't get me wrong, I think the baba is a wonderful boat and I have taken it on several 3-5 day cruises and enjoy the comfort and stability it offers and admire the workmanship that has gone into it. But it ain't a day sailer - the smalll cockpit, heavy displacement (29,000 lbs), high freeboard and cutter rig all make it a great cruiser/blue water boat, but don't make it practical for what it's being used for. It's also a lot less fun to sail.

The lesson? Be realistic about what you are going to do with the boat. Define how it will most likely be used and then think of the characteristics that fit the use. I think its hard to do when you've only been out 10-15 times - afterall, my father sailed for 25 years before he bought the Baba, so none of us are immune! Good luck.

 

[TSOJOURNER]

30 feet is the largest that I would recommend. Apart from sailing the boat, you have to maintain it, and you'd be surprised at the amount of time it talkes to keep a boat in good condition. The smart thing for you to do would be to buy an older, seaworthy, but not too pristine 26 footer and bang it around for a couple of years. Buy it with the idea that you are going to lose a little money on it and go out and make all of your mistakes on it. Then, when you have developd some confidence in your abilities and understand what you like and don't like, as well as what it costs in time and money to keep your boat going, get the larger and more luxurious vessel.
In the meantime, you and your significant other should sign up for beer can racing and get as much water time as you can.

Good Luck !