[Argyle38]

Hi djodenda, I'll answer your questions below in blue.

Argyle:

You certainly know the boat better than my indirect knowledge.. (I have very limited time aboard)

Would you please comment about the engine access/room,

The engine room is quite large but it's not as convenient as more modern deisgns. There is plenty of room to get in there and move around, but it does require a bit of contortion. I have a Perkins 4-108, which is larger than the stock engines (Ferryman's, 24 or 36 hp) so that takes up quite a bit of room but there's still plenty left over for a bigger than average guy like me (~5'11", 220#) to move around. My joints stay plenty flexible, I'll tell you that. Modern engine rooms with removable bulkhead sections around the engine are a very nice improvement. If I had to replace my starter motor, I might have to pull the engine, for instance. My oil filter is remote is remotely located on the inside wall of the companionway as well.

and what you thought of the small cockpit well.. I know my dad used deck chairs in the cockpit, and was pretty happy with that.

I find we seldom use the cockpit well for our legs. I have a few of those West Marine fold away seats, the blue ones. Those, in addition to cockpit coushins make it so you can arrange a seat any way or any where you want in the large flat aft section. If you're not actively steering, we typically are kicked back somewhere that it is comfortable. On long passages, I find that this is actually more comfortable than most of the cockpit combing backrests. One downside to the larger flat cockpit, is if you take a wave over the bow, the water often will come all the way aft and soak whatever is on the low side. I've seen a few boats where someone built a combing between the cabin trunk and the caprail or a re-built winch base, to prevent this from happening.

My Dad had Leisure furl roller furling, and really liked it. I am pretty sure he also got rid of the staysail "club"

I still have the staysail club. I actually like it. Gives some additional options for trimming that sail. For instance, if you run a line from the aft end of the club forward to the tip of the bowsprit, you can use it like a pole for going downwind. I do this sometimes if I don't want to rig up the whisker pole or haul out the asym. I call it 'chicken winging.'

I know he reinforced the big windows after one broke during a blow, which was pretty scary for him. Curious if you have done something about it.

A lot of people do that. I haven't but my cruising grounds are still Long Island Sound, so it's pretty tame around here. I think I would just build a set of stormboards to put in front of those windows, unless I felt inspired to take on another major project. I've already replaced all of the small opening ports with New Found Metals ports, which are great btw. Those windows are an odd bit of cheapness, compared to how the rest of the boat is built. I mean, why put coastal plexiglass windows on a boat that was heavily built for offshore (albeit milk-run) cruising? Those stock windows are definitely one of the things that holds them back when compared to Westsails. I said they were similar in build, but I would probably put the Westsails a notch ahead, for this category of boat, because of those windows, among a few other things. They are normally quite a bit less expensive than a Westsail of similar quality and size.

I know that he pounded ashore in Bonaire for several hours during a blow. Took him a while to get it fixed, but he completed most of his circumnavigation after it.

He never could figure out how to back it up without warping..

Me neither. If there is no wind and you are careful, then you can back up well enough, but anything more than 5 knots and that bow just goes downwind until you get the boat moving 2+ knots in reverse. That 's a lot of momentum before you get enough boat speed to have any control. So, yeah, the warping lines are your friends. You do learn a lot about big boat handling, because you have to. Like I said before, I have fun with the warping. I won't even get a bow thruster. Stubborn I guess.

I always tell people, the key to these kinds of boats, along with Westsails, Vagabonds, Island Packtes, etc. is that you have to use them to their strengths. If you buy one of these and want to use it like your friend uses his 2001 Beneteau, then you will find yourself frustrated quite a bit of the time. He will go in to any marina and have a pretty easy time getting in and out of that inside slip down the fairway. On a boat like this, you're better off anchoring out. The strength is that more of the anchorage is going to be open to use because of the mass of the boat and the hull design.

I know he replaced the tanks, which I think were black iron..

My main fuel tank is aluminum, and two 45 gallon water tanks are stainless. The main fuel tank is very deep. I installed access ports in it to clean and inspect when I bought the boat.

Sorry.. don't mean to hijack the thread.. Your response was well thought out and written.. Just curious of your impressions.

 

[Argyle38]

One thing I'd throw in here is that you should learn the lesson that Bob P. taught the world more than 40 years ago - fergit the friggin full (or even long) keel.

I just sold a good boat that was built for cruising blue water back in the 70's. It had a very long fin / modified full keel with a spade rudder and was unsatisfying to own & sail due to it's small rig and clumsy close quarters handling.

In every other way it was great but those factors completely overrode its good qualities.

Remember, you are buying a sailing boat, not a house.

IDK, Based on the three he listed in the original post, he may be looking for a house, or at least a sailing house. A J-24 is a wonderful boat of only sailing is what you're looking for. It lacks a bit if a livaboard/cruiser is what you need.

That same type of boat the you find unsatisfying (and I do get it, I'm a racer as well) I have a blast with. Just depends on what's important to you.

Besides, y'all fast cruisers must HATE sailing. Why, for the same distance, I get almost twice the sailing in!

 

[JonEisberg]

Don't forget the Valiant Esprit 37. Far more boat then the modern production boats...especially if your going offshore....

Good suggestion... Somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory, I seem to recall Jeff H speaking highly of Bob's Esprit, on the original Cruising World forum, way back when... Any boat that gets Jeff's stamp of approval, you can't go too wrong...

The Fast Passage is a boat that I've always admired, as well, though I've only looked at one dockside, never been aboard... One certainly seemed to serve Francis Stokes very well, back in the glory days when guys like Mark Schrader and Stokes raced solo around the world in boats like Valiants and the FP 39...

THE MOONSHINE LOGS is a most excellent read, btw...

The Moonshine Logs: Francis Stokes: 9780924486678: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HQA218FML.@@AMEPARAM@@51HQA218FML

 

[blt2ski]

There's a Baba 30 that is being neglected at the end of my dock in Edmonds Washington.

You might get a deal on that one.

Not sure where you are, but I could probably get contact information for you.

That thing showed up neglected, still being neglected....will ALWAYS be neglected by that owner. At least last I looked, it did not have a 5' chunk of brown algae hanging on the rudder. Still has enough barnicles, mussels etc to make up a nice bisque!

Marty

 

[Mal Reynolds]

I spent a lot of time with my father on his Valiant 40, Mooneshine offshore.
I remember close reaching up from Bermuda watching the main bulkhead separate from the hull about 6" when she went off a wave, only to smash into the hull when she landed. I remember when he arrived in Newport after the tough 1976 OSTAR, the water tanks had crashed into the cabin. I remember my father having doubts about the strength of the hull, including the square cabin top. I remember Everett Smith (on another Valiant 40) talking about his fear as he would sit in the companionway and watch the hull twist through the waves. All of this was with relatively new hulls.

When he decided to do the BOC, he sold the Valiant and bought the Fast Passage. You can draw your own conclusions. To my knowledge he had no issues with the Fast Passage.

The layouts are very different, so that becomes a matter of personal taste.

I wish my father was around so he could give you far more insight than I ever could.

 

[killarney_sailor]

I appreciate all the knowledgeable input. Those three are in my first group at the larger end of what I'm considering. Others on the radar are the Baba 30, CT Cutter 34, Valiant 32, Alajuela 33/38, Tayana 37, Bristol 28 Cutter, Cabo Rico 38, Pretorien 35, and Pacific Seacraft 34. I think the Hans Christian 33 would be pushing the final budget.

Seems like you are considering boats that are very traditional for the most part with still considerable differences among them. Of the ones you list I would lean toward Pretorien. Doesn't have the 'pretty factor' of many of the others but a tough, capable boat. Might push your budget, but the Hood 38, also from Wauquiez is another candidate.

 

[bobperry]

"watching the main bulkhead separate from the hull about 6""
That is just plain silly. 6"? Total BS. I have never seen ANY BOAT flex 6" in my life.

More Valiant 40's have circumnavigated than the total number of Fast Passages built. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[blt2ski]

More Valiant 40's have circumnavigated than the total number of Fast Passages built. Draw your own conclusions.

Ah man! Someone let that Portuguese Water dog north of Marysville loose on the computer to brag about his daddy! :laugher:laugher:laugher

Hate that when that happens......

Marty

 

[bobperry]

She types far better than I do Marty.

 

[temerity24]

On the BOB PERRY Forget The Full Keel side of things, these boats sound capable: Valiant Esprit 37, Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37, and I'm still keeping the Pretorien 35 in there. Fast Passage still in the mix.

 

[bobperry]

Pretorian 35 is a very good boat as is the 38' Wauquiez model, one of my favorites.

 

[theonecalledtom]

I enjoyed sailing my DE38 Cutter but upwind in low wind conditions was a slog. She would reverse in some level of control from about 2knots and up but I have to admit that switching to a fin keel took some work as I got so used to sliding sidways in a cross breeze and using the prop walk to kick the back over when docking.

She always felt solid to sail and would track well as previously described.

From 20-30 knots a reef or two in the main and staysail only would feel pretty good.

The interior was comfortable for myself and my wife and I once slept 6 onboard but that was pretty tight! The galley was a good size. The engine had great basic access but getting to the battery banks and anything else back there was a pain. We owned the boat for about five years and had one blister and no major issues while probably managing 50 days a year on the water.

When we bought our boat she was as much as we could afford at the time but significantly below your max. I consider her to have been great value for money but while we enjoyed her greatly with a bit more money I would look elsewhere. A cutaway keel, skeg hung rudder and more modern rig would allow you to sail more. Other interior designs are more comfortable (take a look inside a HC38). I don't know what the going rate is right now but we sold ours for half what you are looking at - probably could have got more but wanted a quick sale and money for a new boat. We did sell within a couple of weeks of listing and that was probably at the low point in the market a few years ago.

 

[Oregonian]

I would like to thank Mal Reynolds for his insight and contribution to this thread regarding the Valiant 40 and Fast Passage 39. Just by coincidence, I too have talked personally with Francis Stokes and Ev Smith regarding their crossings on their Valiants in the 1976 OSTAR. Both men told me the same story. Both men had serious problems with their Valiants. Maybe the Hull to Bulkhead separation was only 3" inches? Ev Smith talked directly to Bob Perry before and after the race. Perry was very angrily informed of the problem by Ev Smith. Perry said "...that is just silly. 6"? Total BS" My response is that Mal Reynolds gave a good accounting of the situation and that Perry either has a bad memory, is lieing, or is full of BS himself. HE has, in fact, called other posts BS simply because he did not like what was said. Not because it was in error.
In support of Valiant I can say that the company made good on Ev Smith's boat and almost certainly corrected the problem on future boats. Both boats involved were early production models. As mentioned by Mal Reynolds, Mr Stokes got rid of his Valiant and bought a Fast Passage 39. Ev Smith got rid of his Valiant and bought a Choy Lee 41.
Thankyou

 

[bobperry]

I stand by what I said. As I recall Franncis was the first production boat to finish that race. Oregonian is making things up. He has no idea what Ev Smith and I discussed. He was not present.

More Valiant 40's have circumnavigated than the total number of Fast Passages built., Draw your own conclusions.

You can be angry and bitter all you like OR but you can't change reality. At this point it just doesn't matter. Valiant had a great run and I am very proud to have been the designer.

 

[blt2ski]

Oregon,

Assuming the issues you described are correct to the two boats. There are two people per say potential at fault. The designer, or the builder. Or some combo there of.

If the designer did not design or take into account some of the stresses etc that go into how a boat is used. Issues as described could/would be the designers fault.

If the builder decided to do a short cut on the designers specs, and issues occurred, you have the builder at fault.

Or, you could have the builder trying to save $$, do a short cut, with potentially the designer saying how one could do this in a cheaper cost fashion, still be some what strong, but not handle this type of environment. both approve of the change. Issues occur. Both at fault.

Then there could be thing in between, such as the resin folks not putting enough hardener in the resin, so the resin is not as strong as it should be. There were plenty of now known issues with the resins at the time. A bad batch of resin not curing correctly may have caused some of the issues. There is plenty of blisters from that time frame on many brands of boats, Valiants do have the known issues. Certainly not Bob's or any designers fault from that period.

Cheap supplied parts, fasteners etc, that fail before they should......still fault of builder, but at the same time. something the builder may not have known about it until a failure occurred.

While I have not been in the boat building industry, I have been in the home building landscape industries for 30 some odd years. I have a design degree, along with do the building part. I have seen all the above occur in my field. It would not surprise me that something as I described occurred on those two early boats. Being as neither of us was there at the time, to blame one and not the other is wrong. As it could be an issue with either party.

Also at the end as you said. Uniflight the builder or one of the builders of the Valiant made the boat right. Obviously something was wrong, why or how......we will probably never know. Other than many seem to like the boat. I'm sure the other brands are good too when used as designed.

Marty

 

[bobperry]

People interested should do some research on the conditions of that race. The conditions were very severe and many boats were seriously beat up. Francis told me that he thought that if he had running backstays he could have won the race. I had been promoting runners for some time. That's what I remember of my many conversations with him. Francis is a very good sailor and a great guy.

Of course he raced a Fast Passage the next time. He was the regional dealer for the boats. They were good boats. I like them. But they only built a small handfull while they built hundreds of Valiants. Bill Pinkney was the fist black American to solo circumnavigate , all Capes. He sailed a Valiant 40. Mark Schraeder did a solo circumnavigation in a Valiant 40 and then he did it again in a Valiant 47. It's all well documented. Were the Valiants "perfect". No, but history shows that they certainly were "good enough".

OR getting all bent out of shape about it now, 37 years later, doesn't alter anything. Time to move onto my latest project, the Four Carbon Cutters Project. One client, four custom boats.

 

[SloopJonB]

I've been around sailing since before the Valiant 40's appeared and I've only ever heard two bad things about them - the cabin top is too boxy, which even Bob agrees with and the Hetron fire retardant resin Uniflite used caused some severe blistering problems for the portion of the run it was used for.

Until now I have never heard word one about any sort of structural problems from poor construction - sprung bulkheads and so forth.

The fact that they were in continuous production for something like 40 years would tend to confirm their quality.

 

[bobperry]

Jon: I think like most boats, Hetron resin episode aside, the V-40 in its early days may have had some issues with how the bulkheads were tabbed. I never did agree with Uniflytes method of installing the bulkheads and it took till we got the build moved to Texas to correct that issue. But many of the old Unifltye boats are still sailing the world and doing just fine. I have never heard of even an old V-40 debilitated by structural issues.

Yes, the cabin trunk is too boxy. When I saw the first molded deck I thought "Did I really draw it like that?" I checked the drawings and yes, I did. I designed a second deck with more shape to the house and Valiant polled the owners group and made the decision to stick with the boxy house. But in my defense, I was a kid, 28 years old and I had much to learn. I was not born with the skills I have today. I learned them the hard way. Most of what I learned about deck shapes and design I learned from studying the C&C 39. Still my very favorite deck and , to pull this full circle, very close to the deck you see on the Fast Passage.

If someone asks me "Is the Valiant capable of going,,,,,?" I say, "Yes, there is nothing that you can do in a Valiant that hasn't been already done many times over." Having been an owner of one for several years I can tell you it is an extremely pleasant boat to sail. Like pulling on your favorite pair of old Levis.

I think the Valiant hold the record for the longest production run ever for a cruising boat. Can't argue with success. Well, you can but in the end you look a bit foolish or uninformed or both.

 

[vroberts129]

I have a Downeast 38 and agree with most of what Argyle said. Mine has been repowered with a 35 hp Yanmar diesel. I dont have issues backing. I have a lot of experience on large power boats. I disagree with the negative comments above on construction. My boat is a 1975 and has no issues topside or the hull. I think these boats are very well made and I am fond of the deck core material. It is aeronautical grade light and strong. I dont like large windows on any sailboat. Getting ready to take my boat to Cuba.....from St. Pete...

 

[NorthCoastJoe]

Just got a Downeaster 38, anyone who had one still looking on here let me know, I would like to talk.