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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I thought I would share with you a warning of what can go wrong with some ebay purchases of commodities like anchor chain. After their mandatory waiting period I escalated the issue to ebay and they immediately issued me a full refund.

I won't name the seller here - I'm not trying to trash him. But I thought it might be interesting and educational for you to see the back-and-forth that went on with him. First, here's some text from the description and a picture:

ISO High Tensile G43 Hot Dipped Galvanized Marine Boat Windlass Anchor Chain, 1/4", We Sell Per Foot....
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The ISO High Tensile Chain is Made of High Tensile Strength Alloy Carbon Steel That Provides a Greater Strength to Weight Ration Than Proof Coil Chain, ISO Short Link Which Makes It More Flexible And Ideality Suited As Windlass Chain, Each Link is Proof Tested and Calibrated, and Stamp G4 on Links.
eBay Customer Support has opened a case for you.The seller has until Jun 24, 2014 to respond. Jun 18, 2014 at 5:22 PM
The details you provided:
The item doesn't match the seller's description.
You paid for the item on Jun 13, 2014.
There is a problem with 25 items in the order.
Your phone number: xxxxxxxxxx.
We will not share your phone number with the seller.
The item is fake
Additional information:
"The listing for this chain says "Each Link is Proof Tested and Calibrated, and Stamp G4 on Links" and the picture in the listing clearly shows the G4 certification stamp. The chain I received does not have a G4 certification stamp. It looks like lower grade G30 proof coil. The item is not as described, because it does not have the G4 stamp that the listing said it would have. Because the item is counterfeit, I should get a full refund of the cost and shipping charges, and the seller should bear the cost of shipping this heavy item back."
You've requested:
A refund. The refund amount includes the purchase price plus original shipping.
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 18, 2014 at 5:53 PM
Seller's message:
"Hello Sir, How are you! it seems that many clients are concerning about the stamp G4, but don't care if the chain is grade 43, my chain is made of alloy steel and the material strength is unto grade 80, but after heat treated by hot dipped galvanized, it shall go down to another level such as grade 50 or more, so, please don't worry about the grade, and this is not grade 30, because the dimension is different, please check only if the dimension is correct, and then, we will talking about the stamp, actually, we have stamp on the chain, but we never say on each link, actually, if the chain by deep stamped on each link, the strength will be much more going down, I'm not sure if they are really matching G43, but the surface damaged, so, from the technical and ISO standard, we don't recommend each link is deep stamped, the reason stamped G4 is for separate the chain with other standard, but we have only G4 chain, so, that is not necessary to stamp each link, so, please don't worry."
You have responded to the seller. Jun 18, 2014 at 7:28 PM
Your message to the seller:
"The reason you have so many clients complaining about this is because your listing says that the links are stamped, and your listing shows a picture of the stamp on the chain when you zoom in. The product you shipped does not match your description. The National Association of Chain Manufacturers lists the specifications for certified G43 chain, available here: http://www.nacm.info/Downloads/NACM_Welded.pdf and section 8.1.1 of that document states that 1/4" G43 chain shall be embossed at intervals no greater than 3 feet. So my 25 foot chain should have at least 8 links that are embossed, yet I could not find a single link on the entire 25 foot length that was embossed like the picture in your listing. I believe that you are selling counterfeit product that does not match your listing. I maintain my request for a full refund of all charges, including return shipping charges for me to return this heavy product to you."
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 18, 2014 at 8:44 PM
Seller's message:
"Dear Sir, you are not a real buyer, I know what you want to do, but you have to read this standard carefully on 8.1.5, thank you so much for let me read standard again and again, actually, i have at least 15 years experience of this chain, I have this book 15 years ago, and i translated it to my factory, thank you again for let me review this standard and i would like to share this knowledge again. But do you want the chain? if you don't want it, please ship the chain back to us, we sell it very quickly, we need it, thank you for you help us and my other clients, SHIP IT BACK PLEASE."
You have responded to the seller. Jun 19, 2014 at 3:51 AM
Your message to the seller:
"You mention section 8.1.5: 1/4" (7mm) and smaller Grade 30 chains may be embossed at the option of the manufacturer. This section only applies to Grade 30 chain. So you are saying that your chain is the cheaper Grade 30, but you are listing it in ebay as Grade 43. It is falsely represented, counterfeit goods. I will gladly return it to you, but it is very heavy and will be costly to ship. Please issue a full refund of everything I have paid so far, and I will gladly return it to you upon receipt of a prepaid shipping label from you. I should not have to pay return shipping charges for a counterfeit item that was misrepresented in the listing. I am a real buyer. I need this item for my boat and will now have to go buy it somewhere else."
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 8:20 AM
Seller's message:
"Technical man, i have to charge you the knowledge fee now, if you need me help, please pay $100.00 for how to learn ISO G43 high tensile chain, and how to do the calibrate, do you have this standard? that is really a knowledge, please read it carefully, and then, we talk about the standard, be careful young man."

The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 9:19 AM
Seller's message:
"You have send us the NACM standard, please read art 8 carefully, they indicated very clear how the grade 43 chain stamped, and only 1/4" of high tensile chain and grade 30 chain shall be stamped according to the manufacturers. before 8.1.5 those are for 5/16" and 3/8", only 8.1.5 explained very details of the 1/4" high tensile chain and all the grade 30 chain, if you need any help on reading this page, please let me know, and thank you for taking time to review this standard with us, we would like to share this knowledge and experience with you, thanks. about the chain, please return it back to us, thanks again."
Your message to the seller:
"Your suggestion that I pay you an additional $100 makes me even more suspicious of your business ethics. The fact is, your ad showed a picture with a "G4" certification stamp on the chain, and your text description of the item said that the G4 certification stamp was on the links. You shipped me 25' of chain where not a single one of the >300 links have the G4 certification stamp. And you fully admit that this chain doesn't have those stamps, and that other customers have complained about it too. Yet you continue to falsely advertise the item to me and other unsuspecting customers. I want to return the item to you, but it will be very costly to ship because it is very heavy. Therefore, I request that you email me a prepaid shipping label before doing so. Upon receipt of that label, I will ship the item back to you for a full refund of the item cost and shipping charges. If you are unwilling to do this, I will escalate the case to ebay."
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 10:29 AM
Seller's message:
"What the other people compliant is there is not stamp on each link, we do have stamp on the links, but those are very light letter, please do check it on each link carefully, and then, you can find the stamps there, anyway, you could ship the chain back to us if you don't need it, but i will let you know, we really sell this chain for more than 15 years, and no body compliant the quality, only the stamp on the links of the 1/4" chain, but they don't know, the stamps will damage the surface and get down the grade of the chain, so, this is why even NACM don't recommend to stamp on the small size, stamp means for separate the chain with other grade if we have, but we sell only g4 chain, until now, we don't have the other grade chain, and what we have is only for the windlass use chain, please don't worry about the chain, but if you need the stamp letter but not the chain, please ship it back, thank you very much."
You have responded to the seller. Jun 19, 2014 at 10:43 AM
Your message to the seller:
"The picture in your listing shows a very clear "G4" stamp on the chain. Your chain does not have anything like this, and your message to me admits that your chain does not look anything like that. If you don't want to stamp your chain, your listing should not show a stamp. It's very simple - you must list the product that you are selling, not something else. The item is misrepresented on your listing. As I have said multiple times, I will only ship it back if you pay the return shipping. Since you seem to be unwilling to do that, I will escalate to ebay."
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 10:51 AM
Seller's message:
"Yes, you are right, we have the stamp on the links, just like the picture we listed, but we never say the stamp is on each link, that is not good for the 1/4" chain, so, please double check the chain clear for the stamps, that will take your time, but don't worry, i think you will definitely have the stamp on your order, check it, and if you need any further information, please let us know. i would like to let you know again, this is real g4 chain, this is not a letter of stamp, we don't sell stamp but we do sell ISO Grade 43 windlass chain, if you have any further technical question, please let us know, thank you."
You have responded to the seller. Jun 19, 2014 at 11:04 AM
Your message to the seller:
"I do not have the chain with me, because I am at work right now. I will look at it when I get home. Please answer this for me so I will know what to look for on the chain: Does the stamp look just like the picture in your ebay listing?"
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 12:01 PM
Seller's message:
"You even did not check the stamp carefully and said there was not stamp on the link, i don't know what you want, please, I don't sell picture too, please do ship it back to us, because you don't need it, thank you so much for help us on the chain, we really need the chain, because we almost run them out, thank you."
You have responded to the seller. Jun 19, 2014 at 2:15 PM
Your message to the seller:
"I did check the chain carefully the first time and found no stamps. I agreed to check it again at your request so I can be 100% sure. Don't go claiming that I did not check it carefully the first time. I'm only agreeing to look again because you asked me to. I will ship the chain back to you if you pay for the shipping. That's appropriate for a product that has been misrepresented in the ebay listing."
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 2:30 PM
Seller's message:
"double check it, I'm sure there are stamps on the links, and then, please ship it back to us, because you don't need the chain, but we really need it. actually until now, i can tell you, the ISO standard doesn't request to stamp g4 on 1/4" chain, and this is also for protect the chain in good strength, because the diameter of 7mm is too small, if we stamp deep, that point is the problem area, so, we recommend stamp on this size shallow, and you will find on my chain, those are shallow too. O.K., the technical argue close now, if you need any help, please let me know, thank you for business with us, and you will enjoy your chain now."
You have responded to the seller. Jun 19, 2014 at 3:46 PM
Your message to the seller:
""double check it, I'm sure there are stamps on the links" Regarding that statement, please provide a direct answer to this question: Do the stamps on the links look like the ones pictured in your ebay listing?"

You have responded to the seller. Jun 19, 2014 at 5:14 PM
Your message to the seller:
"This evening I re-checked every single link of the chain on both sides, and there is not one single link with a G4 stamp like the one pictured in your ebay listing. You keep sending me messages telling me why it's bad to stamp the chain, but if that's the case, why did you list the item with a picture of a G4 stamp, and include text saying "Each Link is Proof Tested and Calibrated, and Stamp G4 on Links"? It is a total misrepresentation of your product. Because this chain does not match the description in your listing, I am entitled to a full refund of all charges including shipping, and you should pay for the return shipping to you."
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 5:45 PM
Seller's message:
"Dear Sir, please check it again, because i have chain in stock, and there are g4 stamps on links, please note, we never never said the stamp on each single link, that is not true, and the standard didn't say it must be stamped on each link of the 1/4" g4 chain, so, we don't like to explain more and every thing is very clear, g4 chain is the g4 chain, actually, no matter you stamped g4 on it or not, so, please return it back to us, thank you very much, if you only don't like to pay the return fee or just a full refund, you don't need to take such long time if that is my fault or not, just return the chain back, we will say thank you very very much sir, PLEASE AGAIN SHIP IT BACK TO US."
You have responded to the seller. Jun 19, 2014 at 7:54 PM
Your message to the seller:
"I already checked the whole chain twice. I do not need to do it again. I am 100% certain that there is no link with a G4 certification stamp like pictured in your listing. I never suggested that every link should have this stamp. All I did was to quote directly from your listing, which says, "Each Link is Proof Tested and Calibrated, and Stamp G4 on Links." The item you sent me does not match up with the picture or text in your listing. I spoke by phone to the ebay customer service center. They looked over my record and suggested that in this case I should not send the item back to you unless you issue me a prepaid shipping label to cover the cost. Misrepresented items are not acceptable to ebay. I have to wait until Monday before I can escalate this case, but at that point they will likely require you to pay for return shipping in addition to refunding all my charges. So you have until Monday to come up with an acceptable resolution before I escalate."
The seller has responded to your case with other solution. Jun 19, 2014 at 8:09 PM
Seller's message:
"01. This is a technical product, it's allowed to have a tolerance, it's not a picture or a draw, so, we don't need to have all the links in the exactly same, because nobody can do that. 02. you said is correct, we stamped g4 on links, but not each link. anyway, you want me say, the stamp on my chain is same as the picture, this is what you want me say, but, even i tell you, that is not necessary, because this is a technical chain, we may have difference on each order from the factory, and the stamp or letter should not necessary exactly same, because this is not draw or picture you want, the very important is the chain with technical data, so, if you want just the picture, nobody could supply exactly same product you know, it's allowed to have tolerance, so, please try to find a solution from the picture, i say again, this is chain, but not a picture, if you buy picture, i agree with you, it should be same, but for the chain, it allow to have tolerance Sir!"
At this point, since I had his tacit admission that the chain was different from the listing, I decided that I had a strong enough case to escalate to ebay. I had to wait 5 more days for the negotiation period to expire. ebays says it can take up to 48 hours to investigate, but in my case they ruled in my favor and issued the refund in about 3 hours.

You have escalated the case to eBay Customer Support. Jun 24, 2014 at 4:12 AM
Your message to eBay Customer Support:
"The item is misrepresented, and probably counterfeit. The picture and text in the listing clearly state that links should have a "G4" certification stamp, but the chain he sent does not have any certification stamps anywhere. In our multiple communications, seller admits that the product is different from what is pictured. He has invited me to send the product back, but it is very heavy and will cost a lot for me to ship. I should not have to bear this shipping cost for a misrepresented product. I have requested a pre-paid shipping label to cover return shipping costs, but he has not provided one. I request that ebay step in and require this seller to supply a pre-paid shipping label for Priority Mail medium flat rate box, which is the most economical shipping method for this heavy product."
 

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Learning the HARD way...
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I don't get the "protection of the guilty" mentality.... This is like showing you a picture of a Cadillac, and shipping you a Chevy..

Thank you, however, for posting enough information to identify this eBay scammer from Florida. He has a 99.1% positive feedback rating on over 4000 transactions. It would be nice if you posted negative feedback on him too...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The ironic thing is that I would have been perfectly fine with G30 chain.

[WARNING: Book knowledge here, not based on any actual experience] For my little boat, I'd probably pull out a cleat before the chain came close to failing. The weight advantage of HTS seems to only help for larger chains, where you can downsize from much larger chain to save weight. None of that is really relevant in the 1/4" size range. And, of course, you can re-galavanize G30, but higher tensile grades don't re-galvanize so well.

But I was not willing to pay a G43 price for G30 chain. If this guy had just offered me a price reduction to reflect the lower grade chain, I might have taken it.

I'm also not happy with the thin zinc coating on this chain. It might even be electroplated instead of hot-dipped. But that argument would be a little too subjective for the ebay arbitrators, so I didn't go there.
 

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There is a reason it is called "Flea Bay" and scum bag rip off artists can still have a 99.1% positive rating. It is a grossly failed medium swarmed by thieves..... Sadly there are far fewer "reputable" sellers on eBay then their rating system would lead you to believe..
 

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wow while that is a bit true I rebuilt many a motorcycle using ebay parts NOS and used...

yeah there are scumbags but thats life...

in this case seems like you figured it out and got your money back...end of story
 

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I hope that the savings were worth the hassle here and don't understand why you didn't "out" the seller but that is your choice. I buy cheap stuff on ebay all the time but never when quality is a concern;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I hope that the savings were worth the hassle here and don't understand why you didn't "out" the seller but that is your choice. I buy cheap stuff on ebay all the time but never when quality is a concern;)
I left ample information for you to figure out who the seller is. Nothing more is really necessary.

I also posted negative feedback on ebay.
 

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The seller's syntax in replies above indicates that English is not likely the seller's native language, and the seller's (indicated) Miami location also supports an inference that the seller may originate from outside of North America. If so, the seller may not observe "norms" of business care and ethics usually expected in first-world countries. It's hard to believe that you could have gotten such a relentless run-around on such an obvious case otherwise.

Regardless of (indicated) seller location, it's always useful to ask an eBay seller a question or two before buying, to gauge a seller's product knowledge and customer service ethic. (Not necessarily saying it would have been helpful in this case.)

It appears the eBay buyer protection plan served its purpose in your case, though at some cost in your time and effort. Perhaps it's better to pay a little more and buy at West Marine (or Defender) rather than to take your chances buying from, say, hrdmarine. ;) Thanks for posting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
The seller's syntax in replies above indicates that English is not likely the seller's native language, and the seller's (indicated) Miami location also supports an inference that the seller may originate from outside of North America. If so, the seller may not observe "norms" of business care and ethics usually expected in first-world countries. It's hard to believe that you could have gotten such a relentless run-around on such an obvious case otherwise.

Regardless of (indicated) seller location, it's always useful to ask an eBay seller a question or two before buying, to gauge a seller's product knowledge and customer service ethic. (Not necessarily saying it would have been helpful in this case.)

It appears the eBay buyer protection plan served its purpose in your case, though at some cost in your time and effort. Perhaps it's better to pay a little more and buy at West Marine (or Defender) rather than to take your chances buying from, say, hrdmarine. ;) Thanks for posting.
I have no problem with people for whom English is a second language. And it's dangerous to make assumptions based on location. Miami location would suggest Cuban or other hispanic, but the return address of the item was actually a Chinese surname. Miami isn't exactly a haven for Chinese nationals. Frankly, Miami would seem a totally natural place for a marine supplier, regardless of the seller's nationality.

I've asked pre-purchase questions on ebay in the past (for more expensive and used items), and my guess is that his answers would have been just as misleading as his listing. Nobody should ever have to ask, "Does your item look like the picture?" That goes without saying.

I had traveled to my local West Marine store before checking ebay, intending to buy since I had $20 in bonus dollars. But their chain looked no better than what this guy ended up sending to me and was priced over $4/ft. [EDIT: This high price of >$4/ft. was for G30 proof coil, not even G43 HTS.] Plus I wanted 25' and they only had 20'. So I checked ebay and found this very attractive looking listing.

So I'm left with 25' of free chain that probably isn't G43 but is well oversized for my boat. (I haven't been told to send it back, and I doubt the seller is going to pay for me to ship back chain that probably cost him less than the shipping.) Its apparently thin zinc coating may not last very long, but I'll get my money's worth out of it while I shop around for a better deal in the future.

ebay backed me up. It could have been a lot worse.
 

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I have no problem with people for whom English is a second language. And it's dangerous to make assumptions based on location. Miami location would suggest Cuban or other hispanic, but the return address of the item was actually a Chinese surname. Miami isn't exactly a haven for Chinese nationals. Frankly, Miami would seem a totally natural place for a marine supplier, regardless of the seller's nationality.
Nor do I, in general. But I'm not afraid to make reasonable assumptions where circumstances warrant - as they did here - and subject of course to investigation and proof, the PC police be damned. While I didn't check out your seller's return address, the style of the seller's English writing did sound like that of a Chinese national to me; the Chinese are everywhere these days, and they often play fast and loose by western standards. To many of them, the world is like the the old Wild West (pun intended). Miami is much like a multi-national Wild West city, more so than any other major city in the US now. The steadying (in context) Cuban influence is still strong, but not what it once was. It's a place to be - careful. JMO.

ebay backed me up. It could have been a lot worse.
Indeed. Good for you, and I hope if enough people complain and eBay reacts similarly, that the seller will change his ways. Though that's not a bet I would take, lol....
 

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HRD imports inexpensive marine products from China. They have a very pretty catalog. Their address is in an industrial area west of Miami International Airport.

The following information comes from the State of Florida website: www.sunbiz.org - Home

HRD Marine is a Fictitious Name owned by HIGHROAD INTERNATIONAL USA LLC.

HIGHROAD INTERNATIONAL USA LLC is a Foreign Limited Liability Company.
I don't know what a Foreign Limited Liability Company is.

Registered Agent Name & Address
WANG, HANJIE MGR
2151 NW 79TH AVE
MIAMI, FL 33122

Name Changed: 04/28/2011

Address Changed: 04/28/2011

Authorized Person(s) Detail
Name & Address

Title MGR

WANG, HANJIE
2151 NW 79TH AVE
MIAMI, FL 33122

Title MGR

LI, YUNHONG
2151 NW 79TH AVE
MIAMI, FL 33122
 

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HRD imports inexpensive marine products from China. They have a very pretty catalog. Their address is in an industrial area west of Miami International Airport.

The following information comes from the State of Florida website: www.sunbiz.org - Home

HRD Marine is a Fictitious Name owned by HIGHROAD INTERNATIONAL USA LLC.

HIGHROAD INTERNATIONAL USA LLC is a Foreign Limited Liability Company.
I don't know what a Foreign Limited Liability Company is.
....
A "foreign limited liability company" or foreign LLC is typically an LLC organized in a U.S. state other than the state in which the company is doing business. So in this case, a non-Florida US LLC. (An entity organized outside of the US would typically be referred to as an "alien" entity rather than "foreign".)

According to the sunbiz site (operated by Florida's Department of State, Division of Corporations), the company is organized as a Delaware entity services LLC, and it was formed on August 19, 2009. It's "members" (equivalent to shareholders and usually also directors of a closely-held entity) as of that time were Mr. Hanjie Wang and Mrs. Yunhong Li, and these same principals also appear as of the most recent Florida filing on January 9, 2014. The LLC became a foreign LLC eligible to do business in Florida on December 14, 2009.

Further information about the LLC and its principals may be available in the LLC's Delaware filings, or the public records (perhaps including court dockets) in other states where it does business.
 

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......I had traveled to my local West Marine store before checking ebay, intending to buy since I had $20 in bonus dollars. But their chain looked no better than what this guy ended up sending to me and was priced over $4/ft. Plus I wanted 25' and they only had 20'. So I checked ebay and found this very attractive looking listing.

So I'm left with 25' of free chain that probably isn't G43.......Its apparently thin zinc coating may not last very long........
While you would have paid WM more, you would have received what you paid for. You are also paying for the ability to walk back in with it, avoid all the time and headache and just tell them it isn't what you wanted. For any reason. That has value to me.

From WM website:

Return Policy

We stand behind everything we sell. If at any time your West Marine purchase does not meet your expectations, you can return it for a replacement or refund......

Returns-Exchanges | West Marine
Even if the zinc turned out to be thinner than you hoped, you just bring it back after using it. I think trying to find the cheapest price on everything can be like gambling. You eventually give your winnings back. Glad to hear you dodged the bullet on this one, but you won't get that time in your life back.
 
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Capt Blithe
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I have not lost money on a couple of similar ebay hassles but it is a hassle and takes a lot of time. Amazon handles these issues in hours giving customers the benefit of the doubt. A better business model IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
While you would have paid WM more, you would have received what you paid for. You are also paying for the ability to walk back in with it, avoid all the time and headache and just tell them it isn't what you wanted. For any reason. That has value to me...
It does to me to, and I never do "showrooming." If I see a product in the store and get value from inspecting it, I always buy it there. In this case it wasn't showrooming because it was a different product.

I think you missed a key part of what I said: I wanted 25', and they only had 20. I was ready to buy on the spot. The guy laid it out on the floor and we counted floor tiles to measure its length. When they didn't have enough, I had to walk away empty-handed. He checked another store and they didn't have the size I needed.

Sorry, chain isn't the kind of thing where I can take 20 feet and buy another 5 feet somewhere else. ;)

I mentioned the price information just for reference. I do think that $4 a foot is high for 1/4" G30. But I was going to pay it.

Had I been in Annapolis I could have walked into a dozen other stores and found chain. This ain't Annapolis here, so I went online.
 

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I had a very similar issue with a purchase on Amazon. But Amazon would do nothing, saying it was the supplier's issue and Amazon did not sell me the product. I stopped payment and three years later I still have the $450 item in the box. I will never buy through them again.

Now ebay, I just bought parts for my Raymarine Auto with the vender recommended here on SN ([email protected]) and was nothing but very happy. Other than a recommended vender, I would not buy anything on eBay.
 

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.....Had I been in Annapolis I could have walked into a dozen other stores and found chain. This ain't Annapolis here, so I went online.
For future reference, WM's online store will always ship to your local store for free and you get the same return policy.
 

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Capt Blithe
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For future reference, WM's online store will always ship to your local store for free and you get the same return policy.
That alone is one of the very few reasons to like WM in spite of the often ridiculous pricing. Another is the OP's situation where he wanted the quality. I think West is trustworthy and buys the good stuff.
 

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I use eBay regularly. It is an auction and there is greater risk of a bad transaction. I would never use it for anything really valuable (over $250). You owe it to the other members to flag the unscrupulous sellers with a negative review.

You can get some great deals on some items, but you need to be really careful about with whom you do business.

It is good to open a case and try to resolve the matter with eBay's help, but at a certain point you have to indicate it was a negative experience. I have done it to 2 sellers and received a full refund, including return shipping costs, for a third.
 
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