[Donna_F]

Two years ago lithium batteries were around $800-$1000 per kWh.

Today, they can be had for ~$300 per kWh if you know where to find them.

I expect them to drop below $100 per kWh in the next 3-5 years, making them as cheap as lead-acid.

Agreed. But the cost wasn't an issue. It was only the range. We were willing to pay if it worked out. I was responding to your statement that we were doing this pre-Lithium.

 

[Maine Sail]

Of course, this is based on today's prices. Lithium battery prices are falling like rocks, and with the new Tesla battery factory coming on line next year, I expect they will fall still further. So far, in fact, that lead acid batteries will be extinct if there's enough capacity to replace them by then. Certainly the technology will dead-ended by then, at the very least.

I have been pretty involved in the LFP marketplace for a number of years at both the build & install level, and US marine standards level, and I can say that the prices have not budged on quality prismatics.

What we do have now are a lot of el-cheapo Alibaba, unknown quality batteries coming out of China that you would not catch me dead installing on a boat.

You need to compare known quality brands of prismatic cells with known measurable histories such as CALB, Hi Power, GBS, Winston etc. If anything the quality brands are stagnant in pricing, or going up slightly. I used to be able to buy a 400Ah CALB SE cell for about $440.00 today the CALB SE cell is running over $500.00 & the 400Ah CALB CA cell running about $570.00...

 

[JonEisberg]

Hopefully, by the time I sell the boat, capacities and prices will be as such that a simple battery retrofit will get me much closer to diesel range for not a lot of cost.

Well, I'm no expert, but that strikes me as a rather 'optimistic' outlook, to say the least…

 

[Captain Canuck]

I have been pretty involved in the LFP marketplace for a number of years at both the build & install level, and US marine standards level, and I can say that the prices have not budged on quality prismatics.

What we do have now are a lot of el-cheapo Alibaba, unknown quality batteries coming out of China that you would not catch me dead installing on a boat.

You need to compare known quality brands of prismatic cells with known measurable histories such as CALB, Hi Power, GBS, Winston etc. If anything the quality brands are stagnant in pricing, or going up slightly. I used to be able to buy a 400Ah CALB SE cell for about $440.00 today the CALB SE cell is running over $500.00...

I was planning to use Nissan Leaf EV batteries. They should be as good or better as any other Lithium battery out there.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Well, I'm no expert, but that strikes me as a rather 'optimistic' outlook, to say the least…

When I say "not a lot of cost" I mean "considerably less than it costs today". Between the density technologies that are coming online and the huge spike (as in, double to triple) in global manufacturing expected in the next 5 years, most of which is in the US, I expect domestic prices to drop quite a bit.

 

[Donna_F]

Well, I'm no expert, but that strikes me as a rather 'optimistic' outlook, to say the least…

You are right. It certainly is something to consider. And we did. But we decided to risk it. In our case, John wanted the electric motor more than he was concerned about selling the boat. Probably there will be someone out there who wants one, he or she just may take longer to locate. If Canuck is OK with waiting for that person, why not go for it?

 

[JonEisberg]

theres a guy at my yacht club that purchased a brand new catamaran with 2 electric powered motor for propulsion in and out of the harbour. lets jsut say after 2 year i never seen anyone rip something out so quick.

LOL!

I've been talking with a guy over the last couple of weeks regarding moving his newly-purchased Nonsuch 33 from Annapolis to NJ… The boat is electrically-powered, same deal, "just enough to get in and out of the marina"…

Lots of consultation with the folks at Annapolis Hybrid Power, the plan is to install a DC generator to charge the batteries. Problem is, the recommended generator cannot be delivered before January, or thereabouts, and the guy wants his new baby back home before then, naturally…

So, after calculating all the costs of the single portable generator capable of powering the boat @ 3 knots, or the dual parallel setup that would likely push the boat @ 5 or more, I got the phone call a few hours ago…

They've decided to truck the thing, instead… LOL!

Can't say I blame him, that might have turned out to be a rather pricey little delivery… On the other hand, might have been a nice little sail, you never know...

 

[Maine Sail]

I was planning to use Nissan Leaf EV batteries. They should be as good or better as any other Lithium battery out there.

Good luck with that.... Which BMS do you plan to use with those cells? These are proprietary cells which were designed for PSOC operation ? How are you going to mange cycling in the middle range for best cycle life?? How often between full recharges? How many PSOC cycles?

 

[Captain Canuck]

Good luck with that.... Which BMS do you plan to use with those cells? These are proprietary cells which were designed for PSOC operation ? How are you going to mange cycling in the middle range for best cycle life?? How often between full recharges? How many PSOC cycles?

I understand where you're going with this. You're going to maximum battery lifetime, which is an important consideration most of the time.

However, I'm an engineer, and I like to look at the worst case scenarios. So let's assume I'm not an idiot and use a proper Lithium BMS with a cutoff of 20%. Any lithium battery should be able to discharge from 100% to 20% at least 1000 times, and most advertise far more than this. So, using my proposed setup, I'd have to be at cruise speed for about 2H to get down to 20%. So let's assume I'm an avid sailor and I go out as often as I can, every weekend for 6 months of the year. That's 52 days a year. 1000/52 = 19 years before the batteries are worn out.

I'm told the average engine wear per year is 50H, btw, so even my conservative worse case is an order of magnitude worse than what reality is likely to be.

Hell, if I get HALF that much life out of the batteries, that still gives me 10 years of diesel free sailing.

Please feel free to point out if any of my assumptions are wrong, or if I've missed something. I like to be thorough.

 

[tommays]

Out in my real world with state of the art electric fork-trucks and riding pallet jacks the maintenance people are plenty busy and the battery chargers on the big ones are on 50 amp 3 phase circuits

 

[christian.hess]

^^^^bingo...

Im back in the states, soon to get a boat... Im all in the forklift conversion crowd that has been around for a long time now in the small sedan car conversion industry...

forklift dc motor, reostat...batteries

golf cart conversions are even cheaper, however those motors are more stop and go design and need cooling of some sort.

doesnt get any simpler than that and much cheaper than a complicated ac kit which has the unbenefit of being complicated to replace(especiaally fried controllers and chargers)

however there are some nice kits from electricmotorsport and other places that have awesome ac kits with regen.

my dream still for my future cruising boat despite the range defficiencies is to use 48v solar with portable gen backup, stepped down to house 12v.

48v for the electric inboard and 12house stepped for everything else...

no ac anywhere in the boat, shoreopower or otherwise

I truly hate ac heavy boats...that rely on conversion and inverters more than direct sources, i.e wind, solar....engine...etc...

anywhoo

time will tell

 

[Captain Canuck]

^^^^bingo...

Im back in the states, soon to get a boat... Im all in the forklift conversion crowd that has been around for a long time now in the small sedan car conversion industry...

forklift dc motor, reostat...batteries

golf cart conversions are even cheaper, however those motors are more stop and go design and need cooling of some sort.

doesnt get any simpler than that and much cheaper than a complicated ac kit which has the unbenefit of being complicated to replace(especiaally fried controllers and chargers)

however there are some nice kits from electricmotorsport and other places that have awesome ac kits with regen.

my dream still for my future cruising boat despite the range defficiencies is to use 48v solar with portable gen backup, stepped down to house 12v.

48v for the electric inboard and 12house stepped for everything else...

no ac anywhere in the boat, shoreopower or otherwise

I truly hate ac heavy boats...that rely on conversion and inverters more than direct sources, i.e wind, solar....engine...etc...

anywhoo

time will tell

If you get a bigger DC motor than you need and run it at less than it's rating, you'll never have to worry about heat.

I like the Electric Yacht kits here: DIY Kits | Electric Yacht
I met the guys who sell their stuff here at the Annapolis boat show. They were very knowledgeable, and their primary engineer converted his own boat. When the time comes to do my own conversion, I'll probably end up using one of their kits to do it.

I'd also like my boat to be all DC, with a shore power charger if I need it. But I'm not doing a liveaboard yet, I'm still just a weekender. That might change when I move up to my next boat, probably a cat...

 

[christian.hess]

If you get a bigger DC motor than you need and run it at less than it's rating, you'll never have to worry about heat.

absolutely right! I was an avid rc hobby guy and basically dabbled in all electric stuff including planes...

the technology there is impressive down to nano amps jajaja, basically these kits are big rc kits up to scale thats all...nothing different at all except size

my comment on AC kits is that they are for the most part more complicated than the dc conversion kits out there

I love electric yacht btw however they are a bit out of my range when if possible I want to build my own similiar kit for much less...

I like the Electric Yacht kits here: DIY Kits | Electric Yacht
I met the guys who sell their stuff here at the Annapolis boat show. They were very knowledgeable, and their primary engineer converted his own boat. When the time comes to do my own conversion, I'll probably end up using one of their kits to do it.

I'd also like my boat to be all DC, with a shore power charger if I need it. But I'm not doing a liveaboard yet, I'm still just a weekender. That might change when I move up to my next boat, probably a cat...

absolutely right! I was an avid rc hobby guy and basically dabbled in all electric stuff including planes...

the technology there is impressive down to nano amps jajaja, basically these kits are bing rc kits up to scale thats all...nothing different at all except size

my comment on AC kits is that they are for the most part more complicated than the conversion kits out there

I love electric yacht btw however they are a bit out of my range when if possible I want to build my own similiar kit for much less...

 

[sony2000]

I did the conversion.
I suggest buying boat with a kaput motor for the conversion.
Time is money in the inverse.

 

[christian.hess]

I did the conversion.
I suggest buying boat with a kaput motor for the conversion.
Time is money in the inverse.

sony hows your conversion doing so far? its been a few months no?

 

[sony2000]

My Club has done three conversions.

I'm now a 6500 lb. sloop that is the lowest end conversion. 7kw, belted, 48vdc, and lead acid. A floating golf cart. It demands being sailed.

A friend went with a California package deal, lithium, AC, in an older Dufour 30
And lastly, the most important Tesla type conversion is by the Laser designer Ian Bruce. His Bruce 22 has 170hp, AC only, and is a classic Chris Craft design,
selling for about the same price as the Tesla S.

Oh by the way, since the Royals are in New York, allow me to mention, that last year, Prince Phillip sent us a little note, congratulating the Club for a 125 years of dedication to the sport of sailing.

 

[mitiempo]

..... the most important Tesla type conversion is by the Laser designer Ian Bruce. His Bruce 22 has 170hp, AC only, and is a classic Chris Craft design,
selling for about the same price as the Tesla S.

The Laser was designed by Bruce Kirby. It was his first paying design and he went on to design all many types of sailboats from San Juan's to 12 meters to sharpies, as well as Canada I and II. I don't believe he designed any powerboats.

Laser (dinghy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sailboat designs of Bruce Kirby by year

 

[sony2000]

mitiempo, if you Google "Bruce 22", he is referred to as the father of Laser. I believe a member of the consortium involved back then. A year ago we spoke of the problem of prop efficiency. My thesis was that, we should have props with only one blade.

 

[mitiempo]

He may be called the father of the Laser and he was involved in its rigging, but Bruce Kirby received the royalty cheques. See Professional Boatbuilder issue #142 April/May 2013, page 62 for detailed article on Bruce Kirby.

A single blade propeller?:laugher

 

[sony2000]

Whatever.