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Do we allow ourselves to be hustled by "screw-ups" by giving them "Expert" or "Hero" status that they don't deserve? Just a thought, maybe we should take more care in whose advice and expertise that we accept. There have been several long running threads on the s/v Triumph - Kim Jacobs incident with a certain awe factor towards the fellow sailors on the Triumph. Since we are "sailors", we tend to relate to them. However, if there was a hero in this incident, wasn't it really the Kim Jacobs, its captain and crew? They are the ones that accomplished the rescue.

We heard many posts and stories from the Triumph side, but we didn't give the Kim Jacobs equal time. There might be a totally different version of the story there. And just how much credence can we give the story that we have been told? If you cut through all the sea tale and maybe spin, Triumph failed. There are many other blue water sailors making long passages successfully and without major incident. i.e. They succeeded, Triumph didn't. So if one wants to give "expert" status to someone, shouldn't it be unheralded boats who make the passages successfully? But instead, we treat with awe those who have "experience" in such matters....that would be the ones that didn't successfully complete the mission and have this tremendous story to tell. We look to them as some sort of hero for being survivors, and therefore, most knowledgeable. Yes, we can learn for them. But maybe, it's more about not how to do things than how to do them. And has the sea story been embellished, as in the size of the fish I caught? In the case of the Triumph, you can decide for yourselves. On Triumph's blog, the boat is described as a 63 ft. boat when, as I read it, it was really a Gulfstar 50. A small typo perhaps, but maybe not. And then, you have to wonder what other typos there are, but I for one, think that the length specification is quite telling. Early on it is stated that a book is to be written. And if so, the story has to be really interesting.

The Triumph sailed knowing that there was questionable equipment (oil cooler, shrouds (starboard stay). They are taking on water...why, what did they do to stop it? They are unfairly critical of the 900 ft. Kim Jacobs for not being able to maneuver easily and precisely into position to their 50 ft. boat in stormy conditions such that the Kim Jacobs becomes a villain. They question the captain's judgment in how to execute the rescue after being the ones who screwed up/failed and needed to be rescued. They think it's terrible regarding the damage that Triumph received alongside the ship, but think it would be entirely appropriate to launch and recover a life boat of comparable size. And then there was the scheme that the lifeboat (and Triumph by inference) could be towed in rough seas to/near shore at ship operating speeds. This from a guy who jumps into the water with the worse of the life jackets that was available to him. Vomit underwater....really? But this guy gets royal treatment as if he is some kind of hero and expert....speaking at Harvard Club and other such places.

Maybe the one who should be speaking is one of those unknown sailors who made the passage without incident. Isn't he the one that we should be listening to?

The Triumph - Kim Jacobs incident is just the one that is at hand. The question of experts, hero's, and screw-ups should be applied elsewhere too.

As to the new Triumph, remember the beautiful boat with the heading "Gloat", I wish you fair winds and good luck. And yes, if you get in trouble again and I happened to be close by, I'd come to your rescue. But we would have to do the rescue my way....not your way.
 

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Whilst I'm inclined to agree with a lot of what you are saying, I don't think the description of the thread in question is entirely fair. The thread basically exploded because people disagreed with DougSabbag and stuck to their guns against his suggestions / lessons.

FWIW, I can quote several posts that explicitly keep the efforts & actions of the KJ's captain & crew as critical elements of the rescue's success. Also, do we really want another thread focused on that incident/issue? Kind of thought we've beaten that horse into a fine paste by now :p

More generally...

I agree that there is a tendency to idolise those with stories of the hardships they've gone through. I believe there are good lessons to be learnt from those stories. I also believe there is a lot to be learnt from those that describe how they avoided such stories of hardship through better decisions & actions earlier. They tend not to be as exciting to listen to, but listen to them I will - I don't need exciting :)

Perhaps because I tend not to idolise people in general, this thread isn't directed at folks like me and I should just shut-up... *shrug* :p
 

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Who afforded "expert" or "hero" status on Doug Sabbag, other than Doug himself? I must have missed those parts of the prior threads. He seems like a nice guy and probably enjoyable to shoot the $hit with over a beer, but I don't think many people were aspiring to be Doug.
 

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Hmmm... my take on the referenced thread is that no one really displayed 'awe' or anointed the title of 'expert' beyond the initial "wow, quite a story, good you made it" responses. Its controversy and long run (and subsequent closure) was precisely because many did not accept blindly the suggestions and actions of the 'expert'.

In any event we'll be watching this one.. there's no need to rehash all that and seems to me this line of discussion is headed straight there.

NCC, I get what you're saying and agree with your essential premise. The quiet successful ones are obviously the true, proven 'experts'. Much like local news programs.. never full of boring 'feel good' stories, always calamity, tragedy, drama because that's what 'sells'..
 

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Heroically, I admit to being an expert at screwing up.
betcha not as good as me .... :p


One things peoples .... if this simply becomes another BagSab thread it is surely pointless. My personal view of the entire business aside we do not need another thread where the competing points of view are hashed over yet again.
 

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bljones said:
Heroically,I admit to being an expert at screwing up.
betcha not as good as me .... :p


One things peoples .... if this simply becomes another BagSab thread it is surely pointless. My personal view of the entire business aside we do not need another thread where the competing points of view are hashed over yet again.
And now, for something completely different, how about you & jonesy in a round-robin exhibition of examples of your expertlinesses. :)
 

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I had to cancel a job interview after getting my tie caught in the running fan belt of my baja bug, thus bouncing my forehead off the fan shroud trying to keep the kadron carb linkage together. Bent glasses, gashed forehead, blood stained dress shirt, mangled tie.
Your turn fuzzball.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
In any event we'll be watching this one.. there's no need to rehash all that and seems to me this line of discussion is headed straight there.

NCC, I get what you're saying and agree with your essential premise. The quiet successful ones are obviously the true, proven 'experts'. Much like local news programs.. never full of boring 'feel good' stories, always calamity, tragedy, drama because that's what 'sells'..
I agree that we don't need to rehash the Triumph saga. What I was trying to say goes far beyond that particular incident. My real point that I wanted people to consider is your last statement. Those who do the job successfully and quietly get little recognition, those that make a mess have great stories to tell and often begin to lecture others as if they were experts. And unfortunately, there always seems to be a large accepting audience. One becomes an expert, in my opinion, when they do the job successfully again and again in a wide range of conditions and circumstances. And in this particular case, I didn't really see any hero's, but if you had to give out that title in this case, it would go to the ship. But every time one of those Coast Guard helicopters goes out in a storm and a swimmer goes in the water in horrible conditions to save someone, there are your heroes. And a final part of what I was trying to say, if you screw it up, you shouldn't be rewarded as is you did something or experienced something significant.
 

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Interesting.

I've found amongst pilots, the culture for most is to talk openly about our mistakes, in the hope it will help the other guy from not repeating them. Pilots tend to read accident reports. Pilot web sites and magazines frequently contain stories written by the pilot that made the error. The best pilots I know, are extremely modest.

In sailing, for many, something seems to get in the way of this, but the best sailors I know would be hard to identify at the yacht club bar, because they quietly go about their business of doing it right.

So, yea, I think you're on to something.
 

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I often find that the real experts tend to be a bit humble and quiet about their qualifications; rarely getting up on a soap box unprovoked.
In this case I found it humorous if not illuminating to watch our "protagonist" seemingly discount the words of Jon Eisberg.
Jon likely has many more successful ocean delivery miles than many of us put together as he has been doing it for something like 30 years.
So who do you listen to: the guy who was successfully rescued or the guy who has not been rescued once in 30 years?
Yes, pick your "experts" carefully.
 

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I had to cancel a job interview after getting my tie caught in the running fan belt of my baja bug, thus bouncing my forehead off the fan shroud trying to keep the kadron carb linkage together. Bent glasses, gashed forehead, blood stained dress shirt, mangled tie.
Your turn fuzzball.
Jonesy you're a dog person so you'll appreciate this one .... my last muttley had a huge personality. Got herself invited to all sorts of events to which I was grudgingly allowed to accompany her. This included invites onto other people's boats or on this one occasion she heard her name mentioned and took a leap. Me thinking it was too far to jump tried to stop her but all I did was slow her progress. It was a very Wile E Coyote moment. Low tide. I can still the look on her face before she plunged some 15 feet into the water.

Not my worst screwup I'm sure but it is a favourite.
 
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All I know is that the word "hero" is one of the most abused words I can think of. When I see it applied to an athlete it makes me want to scream. What complete and utter nonsense.
 

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Oh, Andrew.... you're my HERO! :p :rolleyes: ;)
 
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Oh, Andrew.... you're my HERO! :p :rolleyes: ;)
but of course I am ..... just like wee Lief you think I'm terrific .... and rightly so.

(he said and disappeared up his own rectum ... )
 

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All I know is that the word "hero" is one of the most abused words I can think of. When I see it applied to an athlete it makes me want to scream. What complete and utter nonsense.
Ain't that the truth. The word has become completely debased through overuse. Now if you simply join the military you're a "hero". Firefighters are ALL "heroes", cops are all "heroes", anyone who survives cancer or another debilitating illness is a "hero". Win a sporting contest against the odds? Hero.

What do we now call REAL heroes - those who risk or sacrifice their lives for others? SUPERheroes?

If you want to know what a REAL hero is, look up the citations for people awarded the Victoria Cross or the CMH. Some of the stories will make your blood run cold - absolutely terrifying to even READ.
 

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one position is that soldiers, cops and firefighters risk their lives to save others, thus they are heroes. The catch is, I think, that a hero is someone who risks their life *and could just as easily and justifiably choose not to*. Thus, the lifeguard at the beach who rescues a drowning swimmer is Doing His Job. He's only a hero if he runs into a burning building.

And those may not even be such dangerous jobs as people would have you believe. I think that commercial airplane pilots, garbagemen and coal miners all have higher rates of on-the-job fatalities than police do. Not sure about firemen.
 

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All I know is that the word "hero" is one of the most abused words I can think of. When I see it applied to an athlete it makes me want to scream. What complete and utter nonsense.
Seeing as where you live you are definitely in the minority.......but I agree....
 
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Seeing as where you live you are definitely in the minority.......but I agree....
Well, he's not alone down here... but I sadly concede your point.
 
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But don't we all just love that "Wind Beneath My Wings/you are my hero" song ? Ever been caught at a public event where you just have to stand and take it instead of beating the singer to death with his tambourine as you'd like ?
 
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