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Discussion Starter #1
I have read a lot about the fact that Freedom sailboats have a main mast that does not have any standing rigging and is made of graphite. What are the pros and cons of this?

Thanks
 

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There Carbon Fiber

I guess the PRO is there simple and the CON is you do lose performance compared to other types of rigs


A big CON is the cost of a replacement should anything ever happen :eek:
 

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+Less weight aloft, less things to worry about going bad with rig and stays and chainplates. Ease of handling.
-Loss of some windward performance. Major problem to replace...lightning strike can cause structural failure. Not a great idea for world cruising due to repair difficulty but fine for "normal" use.
 

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Well I personally owned and took a Freedom 45 from NY to Bermuda and back just last year, so I suspect I know something about this.

We sold our Freedom and moved on to something else, but it had nothing to do with the rig. Frankly, I miss the rig. I LOVED that rig. And after having sailed it for a number of years, I came to be surprised that more cruising boats don't have them.

So, where to begin. Let me start with the expressed concern about having no shrouds, etc. If you have a freestanding rig, you have one thing that can break and go wrong -- the mast breaking. If you have a standard rig, you have literally hundreds of parts that could break, any one of which could cause the rig to come down (and that includes the mast by the way). Being able to look up at rigging doesn't mean you are any safer or that your rig is any more secure. You are just looking up at hundreds of potential failure points, instead of one. And it's not like you have redundancy with a standard rig -- lose one cotter pin, and the whole thing could come down. So, I simply don't buy into the notion that you are more secure with a fully rigged sail plan than a freestanding rig.

In terms of performance, the freestanding rig is VERY forgiving. In gusts, the mast bends, the top of the mainsail twists off, and you dump wind. This has the effect of automatically spilling wind and pressure on the main, which makes the boat stiffer. We were able to hold full sail, comfortably, with apparent winds forward of the beam to 25 knots. After that we would heel more than optimal, and then would take in a reef.

The Freedoms also are very easy to handle, particularly short handed. Most of the larger boats have self tacking jibs, and the boats are main drive, which means that when it's time to tack, just turn the wheel.

In terms of a negative on performance, you can't adjust the rig. That is, that same mast bend that makes the boat so nice and comfortable to sail means that you get headstay sag when beating, and there's no backstay to adjust to tighten it up. So, she's not as weatherly as some other boats. Don't get me wrong, we made it to weather just fine, and it was very comfortable (the boat is very stiff, and she never EVER pounded), she just isn't the fastest boat to weather.

And one more thing -- no rigging means must more open space on deck. I'm still bumping into the shrouds on our new boat because I'm just not used to them being there, and I'm appreciating more and more the open spaces we had on deck with our Freedom.

As to the point that they are hard to work on or get parts for, that's really not right. There is nothing to "work on." If a problem, develops in terms of a structural crack or something, then you need a new mast. That for sure is a negative (meaning that replacement is much more expensive than a standard mast). I'm sure there must have been rig failures somewhere on these boats, but I am not aware of one.

As to lightening, it is true that carbon fiber is more susceptible to damage, but that's not a guaranty. For instance, our boat actually was hit by lightening (while we were aboard; that's a subject for another thread). Though we had serious damage to the boat, the rig turned out to be fine, according to GMT composites who surveyed the rig for the insurance company. Indeed, it was after this lightening strike that we took the boat to Bermuda and back, experienced some heavy weather, and had no troubles.

Freedoms have sailed all over the place, they are very well built, and that freestanding rig took our boat to Bermuda, the Bahamas, and the Caribbean. I would have no hesitation in sailing these boats offshore.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks everyone. Your responses have been very helpful. Sounds like a Freedom 36 for a sailor with limited experience who does not intend to race would be an ideal boat for the Pacific Northwest. A topic for another thread.
 

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I love my Freedom 28. I sailed it singlehandedly from Houston to NYC last year. They are very good boats, easy, lavish, well behaving, capable.
There is a time bomb within these boats. It is not the masts. It is the balsa cored hull. So make sure you survey hull well, and take care of it.
By the way, Freedoms are not slow boats (for cruisers) and, generally do well in distance racing.
 

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I differ to agree having sailed both if the freedom does go that's the end but if your a half decent sailor and you watch your gear carefully you will see a wire sticking out of a swage at least you have a warning and can do a repair until your next port if a shroud breaks in day light you can go over to the other tack drop your gear at least you still have a mast mind you swept back spreaders are most important as you don't have to worry too much about a back stay cheers guy's
 

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Here sandboy, you can use some of my punctuation marks -- I've got extras :)
. . . . . . . . , , ? -
 
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I love my Freedom 28. I sailed it singlehandedly from Houston to NYC last year. They are very good boats, easy, lavish, well behaving, capable.
There is a time bomb within these boats. It is not the masts. It is the balsa cored hull. So make sure you survey hull well, and take care of it.
By the way, Freedoms are not slow boats (for cruisers) and, generally do well in distance racing.

I have raced ageist the Freedom I spoke of above. Downwind, you are not going to catch them.
 

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Here sandboy, you can use some of my punctuation marks -- I've got extras :)
. . . . . . . . , , ? -
If I wanted to be an office person I'd have married one I thought the idea of this site was to share experiences not to pick on someone poor English
 

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stick to the freedom

If you havn't understood anything I'm talking about then it would be better to stick to the freedom then with many year's of expierence and not too many mast's falling over you can have a look at my message again cheers Kerry
 

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Sandboy. Whatever the case you should know that your posts are meaningless if they cannot be understood.
 

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First person who doesn't understand me sorry

I have written in many of the forums and threads on this site passing on my many year's of expierence and have been thanked by many on this site what don't you understand maybe I can try to explain as I've never had any trouble before [maybe us OZZIE'S talk a differant lingo we certainly call some parts of yachts by differant names but maily everything is the same] cheers kerry:laugher :laugher
 

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Dear Mr. Sandboy;


In this letter, I will do my best to make my arguments against Anti-Punctuation Society clear and articulate. I plan to utilize numerous examples and maybe even some occasional humor so as not to strain your patience as I delve into immense detail about how Anti-Punctuation Society is a sore loser. First things first: Anti-Punctuation Society wants to get me thrown in jail. It can't cite a specific statute that I've violated, but it does believe that there must be some statute. This tells me that it has been said that Anti-Punctuation Society, having recently learned a smattering of scientific terminology, uses it to wage a clandestine guerilla war against many basic human rights. I, in turn, aver that I must ask that its pals address the real issues faced by mankind. I know they'll never do that so here's an alternate proposal: They should, at the very least, back off and quit trying to label everyone Anti-Punctuation Society doesn't like as a racist, sexist, fascist, communist, or some equally terrible "-ist".
My empirically validated theory is that Anti-Punctuation Society's hangers-on are in league with rambunctious apostates who nail people to trees. Sad, but true. And it'll only get worse if Anti-Punctuation Society finds a way to make us less united, less moral, less sensitive, less engaged, and more perversely uppity. Clearly, it's astounding that Anti-Punctuation Society has somehow found a way to work the words "indistinguishableness" and "spinulosodenticulate" into its slogans. However, you may find it even more astounding that it doesn't care about freedom, as it can neither sell it nor put it in the bank. It's just a word to it.
Something that I have heard repeated several times from various sources—a sort of "tag line" for Anti-Punctuation Society—is, "We should go out and destabilize society. And when we're done with that, we'll all subvert our country's legal system." This is not a direct quote, nor have I heard it from Anti-Punctuation Society's lips directly but several sources have paraphrased the content to me in near-enough ways that I feel fairly confident it actually was said. And to be honest, I have no trouble believing it. Rather than pick out appropriate verbs and nouns, Anti-Punctuation Society pads all of its sentences with extra syllables to grant them an atmosphere of authority. I, on the other hand, prefer to use simple language to express the sentiment that Anti-Punctuation Society presents itself as a disinterested classicist lamenting the infusion of politically motivated methods of pedagogy and analysis into higher education. It is eloquent in its denunciation of modern scholarship, claiming it favors the worst sorts of sneaky fast-buck artists there are. And here we have the ultimate irony because I am tired of hearing or reading that it has answers to everything. You know that that is simply not true. That's all I have time now to write. If you want to get more insight into Anti-Punctuation Society's mentality, though, then study the details of its recommendations. Try to see the big picture: It will obviously amaze you. It will take your breath away. And it will convince you that I am not suggesting government censorship of Anti-Punctuation Society's hideous endeavors.
 

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I have written in many of the forums and threads on this site passing on my many year's of expierence and have been thanked by many on this site what don't you understand maybe I can try to explain as I've never had any trouble before [maybe us OZZIE'S talk a differant lingo we certainly call some parts of yachts by differant names but maily everything is the same] cheers kerry:laugher :laugher
Lissen, I'm russian, so i kinda understand you, you know, we, language challenged should stick together, after all.
However I can not agree with your push for swept back spreaders. I believe that swapt back spreaders, without other considerations of boat's design, is plainly complicated, compare to freestanding masts.
 

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Sail Net Not Punctuation Net

Dear Mr. Sandboy;


[In this letter, I will do my best ] As I pointed out to you in the first place this is a sailing site I didn't read and won't read anything further from you in fact I deleted it as it had nothing to do with sailing I will also complain to the Sail Net Site about your stupid carry on which has nothing to do with this site as you obviously have way to much time on your hands or maybe your doing something else with your hands other than writing can I suggest you go sailing and stop trying to give people ENGLISH LESSON'S :eek: :laugher :puke
 

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swept back spreaders

Lissen, I'm russian, so i kinda understand you, you know, we, language challenged should stick together, after all.
However I can not agree with your push for swept back spreaders. I believe that swapt back spreaders, without other considerations of boat's design, is plainly complicated, compare to freestanding masts.
All new fully rigged yachts now being built come with swept back spreader's I have done 17 Sydney to Hobart's and i know what I prefer for a start you don't need any runner's [running backstay's ] Its also interesting not one yacht wether in the cruising division or racing division have ever tried to do that race or any other in Australia with a Freedom Mast surly this say's something about them cheers Kerry
 

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in Australia with a Freedom Mast surly this say's something about them cheers Kerry
Sure, there is no Freedom in Australia, I’m figurative now.
Swept back spreaders are nonsense on slow boat. Unless you have fully blown fast racing craft, swept back spreaders are liability, IMHO
 
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