Annually or 100 hours, whichever is sooner. Filter material and more importantly, impellers, deteriorate and can/do fail. BTDT

 

The reason for changing it in the fall is so the acids and contaminates don't sit in the engine all winter.

 

Oil, even with 20 hours on it, can have acids and such in it. The thought is to not leave that sitting around in your engine over the winter, and certainly not for years.

At 250hours at your annual rate the oil would be old enough to demand you name it and assign it a berth.

 

Or, as an option to continually worrying about your need to change it because it has been a year but you only put 20 hours on it, use a proper (not cheap) full synthetic and change it every two or three years if you want to. You will find that you can also double the intervals between filter changes as well. Synthetic costs more initially, but who cares? You spend at most $15 on oil as it stands, and you have a growing concern every season's end and beginning. Put in $25 of a high end synthetic, out a sticker in it to "replace in fall of 2015" and Bob's your uncle". Use the boat as you normally would, maintaining the oil level and running it to temperature when you use it, and sleep well at night, for a lot more nights.

 

Not true with many diesels. Westerbeke Corporation for example specifically says that synthetics do not change the intervals at which you change the oils.

Westerbeke Corporation:
"10. Can I use synthetic oil in my engine?
Westerbeke does not approve or disapprove the use of synthetic oils. If synthetic oils are used, engine break-in must be performed using conventional oil. Oil change intervals must be as listed in the MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE section in the Operator's Manual and not be extended if synthetic oils are used. NOTE: The information above supersedes all previous statements regarding synthetic oil."

"Do not leave old engine lubricating oil in the sump over the winter lay-up period. Lubricating oil and combustion deposits combine to produce harmful chemicals which can reduce the life of internal engine parts."

 

I also have a 1GM and put similarly low hours on it. I change in the fall. As others have pointed out, this means it sits with fresh new oil all winter.

While on this subject, how often do people check their oil?

I've met a few people who check their oil every trip to the boat. This doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons. First, it's a difficult and slightly risky procedure. Dirt/grime can fall in through the dipstick hole and I've dropped the stick in the bilge once (which is 3' deep in my case. That mistake lead to the purchase of one of those lighted grabber things).

Second, the oil alarm sounds (and then shuts off) every time I turn the key (and I always wait to here the oil alarm buzz after killing the engine before turning the key off). So on my boat I consider it one of the most trusted devices.

In an ideal world I'd probably inspect all sorts of things - chainplates, rigging etc every time. But given that I like to go sailing and dislike contorting myself to align a hidden stick through a hidden hole in my engine, I think it's reasonable to skip this step. Am I missing anything?

 

Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

I change oil and all fuel and oil filters annually. If nothing else, it forces me to take a close look at the engine at least once a year. I do the same with my cars and the list of other stuff that I've found that needed tending is long.

 

The reason that oil change recommendations have both time and hours, is because they degrade on both schedules, independently. Obviously, the more you use the oil, the more contaminants are introduced that can and will eat at your motor. However, fresh oil has chemicals that degrade or evaporate over time, whether you run the motor or not. Those chemicals are also there to prevent corrosion.

I change oil at the beginning of the season and end, and once more if I hit 100hr of use mid-season. I do add fresh oil just before hauling and change it again when I launch, even though it essentially has zero hours on it. Sitting there for five months is bad enough.

 

Good advice. Thanks. I'll change the oil as well as the oil and fuel filters. The manual did not list a time (i.e, annually) only hours. But, makes sense, as I suspected.

 

Westerbeke has nothing to gain by promoting the use of synthetic oils and therefore it becomes a liability to invest in the research to confidently advise that oil changes can be extended to certain intervals. I wouldn't expect a company like Westerbeke to give two ****s about people wanting to extend the life of their engines if it meant they had to spend money to do the research. There has been enough research done by innovative engine manufactures like Volkswagen, Mercury, Cummins, BMW, Yanmar, Volvo and the like, that it is not even an option to use mineral oils in many of them. Synthetic oil manufacturers have published the results of all their tests which show that the use of synthetic oil has only positive effects in engine longevity, oil longevity, filter longevity and the overall efficiency of the engine. I know change is scary, but so is living in the past.

 

Sounds like an Amsoil commercial....

Synthetic gets expensive when you consider many marine diesels will run 15k hours+ on conventional oil without issue. They fail from many reasons other than the oil used. If it is less expensive due to longer change intervals why are the vast majority of trucking fleets still using Dino oil.?

I have numerous commercial marine customers with over 10k engine hours, and a few with 15k+, and they all run Rotella T or Delo conventional Dino oil.

Remember we are talking about sailboat AUX engines here... 10k hours on a sailboat, at 100 hours avg per year, means your engine lasts 100 years + using just conventional oil.

Also consider that "Million Mile Joe", a local guy here in Maine, drove a run of the mill Honda Accord 1,000,000 miles on the original, un-rebuilt, engine and transmission using nothing but conventional oil & regular transmission fluid.. If a basic Honda accord can go 1,000,000 on conventional oil, is a synthetic really necessary.......?

1,000,000 MILES on regular Dinosaur oil in a run of the mill Honda!!!

How many folks do you know that run their cars to 100k or 200k let alone 1,000,0000 miles...? So why do we need synthetics if today's engines can go 1,000,000 miles on regular and inexpensive Dino oil? If we were to listen to the marketers of synthetics we'd all have failed engines by 50k.. Heck I don't even buy cars unless they have over 100k on the odometer and have never had a single oil related engine failure except for oil leaks on cars I owned that ran synthetics..

There are many other things you can do for your engine to get the most out of it that will do far more for its longevity than conventional vs. synthetic..

Most boaters would never even come close to the engine hours where a synthetic might make a difference in longevity..

 

I have a Yanmar 1 gm. I changed the oil and the oil and fuel filters before the start of the season, and put maybe 20 hours on the engine this season (really only motor on and off the mooring).

Besides changing the oil you may want to review the way you operate your engine. Do you ever run it long enough to completely warm it up and run it under load? You may be killing it with "kindness".

 

Awesome argument.
By your logic people should continue smoking cigarettes because we have heard of people who lived to be 100 and smoked 2 packs a day. The problem with that logic is obvious, but i feel compelled to explain it. Engines running synthetic have more protection during and after remaining idle. They have less resistance throughout it's temperature range and are much more stable during overheat situations and therefore are more capable of protecting your engine in the event of an overheat, and remain more fluid in cold conditions. Because they allow for less friction, they create less heat which in turn creates less material stress and prevents material breakdown. Because the engine turns more easily it actually improves fuel economy, which i recognize is not of great importance to someone who puts 20 hours a year on the engine, but it could become an issue down the road. My car and van all have over 400k on them and although there are many other things which could go wrong, the fact that i have synthetic in them increases my odds of not suffering cylinder and ring wear, valve stem wear, sludge and other material wear. It's better than mineral oil, it's smarter than mineral oil and that is indisputable.
I also have customers with huge hours on their mineral oil run engines but there were a lot more boats built than i get to see in any given marina, but they are far and few between, and if all the other people who owned engines could have saved their engines by spending $10 more a year or two, i suspect the majority of them would have elected to.
Your objection to a vastly better product is confusing to me and your claim that engines with synthetics would die at 50k is weird and smells like bull@#%$. Oh wait, that's because it is bull@#%$. You don't want to use it, who cares? But why you would deter other people from electing to use it only fills the void in you. You are not doing them any favours.
Please, i won't engage you anymore on this topic, no matter how inflammatory you get, but i encourage you to use your time researching research, done by smart people, used by smart people.

 

Awesome argument.
By your logic people should continue smoking cigarettes because we have heard of people who lived to be 100 and smoked 2 packs a day.

Conventional oil is like cigarettes?

The problem with that logic is obvious, but i feel compelled to explain it. Engines running synthetic have more protection during and after remaining idle. They have less resistance throughout it's temperature range and are much more stable during overheat situations and therefore are more capable of protecting your engine in the event of an overheat, and remain more fluid in cold conditions.

Yes synthetics have some great properties, no doubt about that and I don't dispute they are excellent lubes.. The real questions is are they actually necessary to the average life of engines today?

I for one have worn out numerous cars well before the engines. Perhaps we need synthetic paints to prevent our cars from rotting out before the engines wear out.? Now that I would pay for... I don't know too many people who take their engines with them when their cars body dies or for that matter people having engines die from oil related issues in the time they keep the engine..

Oil related engines failures are extremely rare today even with the vast majority of cars & fleets running conventional oils. Oil related failures in marine engines are also extremely rare. Most issues come from lack of maintenance not what type of oil was chosen because any oil change is better than none.

The argument with synthetics always seems to revolve around extending change intervals. My question, do any of the engine manufactures support a warranty if exceeding their change intervals? We know Westerbeke/Universal don't support extending intervals.

Because they allow for less friction, they create less heat which in turn creates less material stress and prevents material breakdown. Because the engine turns more easily it actually improves fuel economy, which i recognize is not of great importance to someone who puts 20 hours a year on the engine, but it could become an issue down the road. My car and van all have over 400k on them and although there are many other things which could go wrong, the fact that i have synthetic in them increases my odds of not suffering cylinder and ring wear, valve stem wear, sludge and other material wear. It's better than mineral oil, it's smarter than mineral oil and that is indisputable.

Smarter, stronger & indisputable, but is that level of protection really necessary...? It is a real question.I just don't see engines dying from oil related failures even when using conventional oils.. Most big fleets in this country don't use them either.

Your objection to a vastly better product is confusing to me and your claim that engines with synthetics would die at 50k is weird and smells like bull@#%$.

That was not my claim, though I admit it appeared that way. Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was if those of us using conventional oil believed the marketing from the Synthetics we'd all have dead engines at 50k, not from using synthetics but from using conventional oil. We just don't have the massive oil related engine deaths the marketers of synthetics would have you believe from conventional oils.

I have used synthetics and by far and away those cars had more oil leaks than any others. Was it frustrating and expensive, you bet. Can I blame it on the synthetics? No, I can't. It is odd that the cars we owned with synthetics suffered from oil leaks far worse than those that ran conventional oil.

We actually owned two identical BMW's, one that came from the factory with Dino and was never converted and one was converted to synthentic. Both cars went to approx 150k before we upgraded or sold them. The Dino car had zero oil leaks in 150k (147k actually) and the synthetic one (same identical engine in both cars) had nothing but chronic oil leaks. Some seals were done two times in our ownership. Similar miles, same engines same manufacturer but different oils. Still only an n=2...

Oh wait, that's because it is bull@#%$. You don't want to use it, who cares?

Again sorry for the confusion with that statement. I have used it and if I bought a car that had been using it I would stick with it. Would I ever personally convert a car to it? No because I know I will never own a car or boat long enough for the oil to make a difference in my engines longevity for my use.

But why you would deter other people from electing to use it only fills the void in you.

I am not deterring people from using it only suggesting they actually pay some attention to the manufacturers recommendations for oil change intervals.

Why would you advise folks to ignore the engine manufactures recommendations for oil change intervals? You claim they, Westerbeke, have not done the testing, do you know this for a fact? What was your source for them not doing the testing did it come from someone like Joe J. at Westerbeke?

Can you assure us that if you exceed the change interval under warranty that Westerbeke will cover it because it was a synthetic?

Perhaps that testing was not done by Westerbeke but perhaps by Mitsubishi or Kubota the people who make the blocks for Westerbeke? I do feel Westerbeke does have a hair in the game and that is because they pay for the warranty. They don't suggest exceeding the change intervals even with synthetics. You do seem to advise this so should owners of in-warranty Westerbeke products listen to your advice or Westerbeke?

You are not doing them any favours.

Are you, by advising not listening to your engine makers suggestions for maintenance intervals?

Please, i won't engage you anymore on this topic, no matter how inflammatory you get, but i encourage you to use your time researching research, done by smart people, used by smart people.

Inflammatory??? I don't think I used any inflammatory language such as "bull@#%$" which I find unnecessary... I am sorry if you took my post as inflammatory but it was not meant to be in any way.

My real question remains;

Is a synthetic necessary for the average engine life most engine owners face? Beyond marketing messages, and the fact that it is technically a better lubricant, "is it necessary?"....

I just did a count with my wife on cars we've owned. It exceeds 50 (in sales I used to get a new car every 9-12 months - fleet stuff) All of our personal cars were run to well over 100k and we even owned some 300k classics in the mix. In all those cars, back to when we were both 16, neither of us have ever had an engine oil related failure. The only oil related issues we can think of were some oil leaks, which I do feel were made easier (not caused) by synthetics.

Honest question, is it necessary?

I also came across this for Yanmar:

"Your Yanmar pleasure boat engine should be broken in before using the sythetic oil. As long as you have at least 50 hours on the engine and it has be used at all RPMs, then synthetic oil is OK to use. Please continue to change it at the recommended interval for your engine as specified in the operator's handbook.

You can expect slightly increased oil consumption and posibly a drip or two under the engine. Synthetic oil tends to find its way past gaskets and seals a little easier than petroleum based
products. Depending on temperature, you can also use a petroleum based 10-30 or even a 5-20 if it is cold enough. Just be sure to use a premium grade oil.

Regards,
Earl Helmer
Director, Service Warranty and Engineering"

 

Frequency of Changing Oil & Fuel Filters

Ahoy-
You had a compelling argument until you got personal with Mailsail. He was not at all inflammatory, only presenting his viewpoint. Given his background many contributions on this site, I and many others regard his opinion highly. No need to cuss him out.

From what I read of both opinions, the type of oil we put in out recreational engines is less important than the fact that we're simply changing the oil.

 

My apologies Sabreman. I start to lose my temper with passive aggressive people who make it their business to sling rhetoric around and plant misintention on others. I just don't know what he has to gain robbing people of reason.

 

are you a pot or a kettle?

 

"Westerbeke Corporation for example specifically says that synthetics do not change the intervals at which you change the oils."
Westerbeke can't actually make any blanket statement about oils, since they don't actually make engines. They assemble blocks and other parts contracted from the lowest bidder, and those actual makers have varied over the years.
Westerbeke are also the technically astute folks who paint the entire assembled engine a nice shiny red. Including the belts and hoses, whose makers expressly say NEVER to paint them, and to condemn them if they are found painted.

40-50 years ago, the concept of changing the oil during layup, to prevent acids from eating the engine, might have made sense. But modern oils with modern additives pretty much counteract all those nasty contaminants, and continue to do so for long periods. Take a look at any premium full synthetic oil, odds are the oil change interval is spec'd for something like ONE YEAR or many thousands of miles.

I'd strongly suspect that means the contaminants, including acids, are being neutralized and rendered safe for a full year, too. I'm sure those oil companies would have some direct comment on the matter, although fear of litigation probably would have them say "follow your engine maker's recommendations" unless you asked precisely the right question, i.e., how long do your additives perform?

I'd be more concerned with changing the oil in the spring, pre-launch, to get rid of the large amount of condensate that will have formed in it over the winter. Of course you could certainly just drain the oil in the fall, leave it empty (with a warning tag!) and put in new oil in the spring, but leaving the old good oil in the engine would probably cause less damage than letting condensate build up alone, wouldn't it?

 

I think my last post was appropriately deleted for having implied that Main Sail/SickCat... well, i wasn't very nice. I was right, but clearly inappropriate.

People, if you have questions about engine manufacturers approving of synthetic oil use, go to their sites and look. No seriously, go look. See what they say. Granted, in the case of a 1GM, it will specify API CD, an old standard mineral oil, but you will find there is a Synthetic which is hands down a better choice than standard mineral oil. Same standard, only better. Many of them offer their own brand of full synthetic (CAT, Yanmar, Penta, Mercury,etc..) or at the least, specify the API Standard to which your oil choice must belong. Finding that, you should visit the API Standards website and locate the synthetic which meets and exceeds the engine manufacturers recommendations. Unless you are educationally equipped to dismiss facts of a field you are not educated in (i assure you i am not), and you are interested in exploring the benefits of this type of upgrade, perhaps listen to qualified and current sources. I have nothing to gain, other than the respect of my customers who opt to try it. I do not put their engines at risk because the lubes i use exceed those required and are the same which come in all their latest engines, and although some decide that the change frequencies should remain the same, they still appreciate the protection the oil provide for their beloved investment.

http://www.api.org/certification-pr...a/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/MOM_GUIDE_ENGLISH_2013.pdf

 

Maine, keep up the good information. Some of the new folks have not learned of your level of experience and wisdom. I like that you don't preach, you just tell it like it is.

 

34crealock has it right . . . . (in MY opinion) we're lucky to have you Maine sail!

 

When it comes to engine oil advice, even from the most respected engine makers, it pays to bear in mind what happened to the entire Detroit auto industry, which basically was the entire US auto industry, in the 60's.

If you owned a Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, anything made in the US and sold by a US franchised dealership, you were told that your warranty was VOID IF ANYONE EXCEPT THE DEALER DID THE OIL CHANGE. On the schedule and with the products that the dealer recommended.

DIY and your engine warranty was void.

That enlightened behavior was taken to the US federal court system, who ruled the behavior to be illegal competition against trade. As a result, today, you can use any damn oil you want, however you want, and the engine maker has to prove that your actions damaged their engine, or else they have to honor the warranty.

So much for the objectivity of engine makers, one and all. They want to sell engines, sell service at their franchises, and generally, they are engaged in a zero-sum gain, where they only make money if they can take it from you.

Sometimes the players have incentives you'd never think about, and the oil companies actually pay a premium to have their oil loaded in new engines at the factory. The same way that beverage companies pay supermarkets and bodegas to get the best placement on their shelves.

But if you look at the objective tests, or have your own oil analysis done, funny thing, no one has disproved the claims that the synthetic oil makers have been making. And most of them say right on the bottle, that they will make good on any engine damage found to be caused by their product.

 

A question I haven't seen answered is if using synthetic oil negates the issues of acids/corrosives in the oil. My gut says that issue will be present regardless of the oil as long as we have internal combustion engines so while the synthetics may give you a long time between changes you'll still need to change oil before winter storage/periods of non-use.

 

AFAIK the only real difference in synthetic oil is that the "oil" molecules are manufactured to a higher standard. However, since synthetics are usually sold as premium oils, they also usually carry a more expensive load of additives, and it is the additives that fight corrosion and do all sorts of other good things. Mobil1 contains a lot of moly (molybdenum disulphide?) which is an excellent metal-on-metal lubricant. Kendall is pushing some mystical titanium coating, claiming it titanium plates metals in the engine. But the stuff that fights acids, etc? Harder to quantify, but since they are pushing longer oil change durations, they would have to put in more additives to cover the longer oil change period. In theory.

More good reasons to do an oil analysis. It may run $25 a shot, but one baseline, and then one a year later to see if you need to change oil more often or less, isn't a bad investment considering how many oil changes or engine jobs it may save in the longer run. Anything else is basically shooting craps.

 

Sounds like a great topic for Practical Sailor to tackle.

 

I think Maine has the real issue here. How many failures are due to oil related failures? Will synthetic help a motor last longer than one that has proper 100 hour or once a year changes? I doubt it, at least not in a sailboat. In a trawler that does a few hundred hours a week yes it might, but I doubt it will in a sailboat. What is the main cause for failures in a sailboat, I think from my years of watching the forums, (as I have not yet experienced one) it seems to be overheating and head gaskets that are the biggest downfall not bearing failures. An impeller breaks or intake gets clogged and the motor overheats. Often due to safety issues you are not able to turn it off in time to prevent damage. Perhaps some issues may be caused with rings and valve stems, but normally not fatal, just oil burning and extra smoke. I don't think the wear on these heavy duty low RPM engines is enough to justify the expense of synthetic as they are unlikely to see any benefit at all. Who really cares if the bearings are like new if what is likely to do the engine is a cracked head or block after an overheating incident.

I know I use synthetic on all of my personal cars. I had a Miata that was just shy of 200,000 miles when I sold it, but that is a very different scenario from a marine diesel. That was hard driven HIGH RPM use. I tracked the car, and auto crossed it so it would spend hours at a time at or near red line. I changed oil depending on use, about 8,000 miles of street use and after every track event. It did not burn or leak a drop of oil and I switched it to synthetic oil at around 70,000 miles. My BMW uses synthetic as factory recommended but I change it more than recommended. I drive about 18,000 a year and change it every six months. I just think 15,000 is to long to go without oil analysis. Since the analysis costs about the same as a change then it seems to me smarter to just change it because if it comes back as needing to be changed it costs twice as much (cost of analysis and cost of oil). Cars are a different animal, as they are not low RPM and light duty motors.

Sailboats with perhaps twice a year changes, is all they need for a long long life. Unless of course you have a Volvo, we all know they will blow up anytime!

 

This is just getting crazy. Regular oil is pretty inexpensive even the "good" stuff. But if you want to use the synthetic and spend more money and then replace it less in order to SPEND THE SAME AMOUNT go ahead. Hey its' your engine!

When it comes to oil only 2 things can go wrong for you: 1 - you didn't have any in the engine, 2 - it went bad because you are stupid cheap

I'm also in the change the oil in the spring camp. I see no reason to allow good oil to sit in the engine all winter collecting water and then use it the next season. I doubt that the oil I put in at the beginning of season went "bad" in 6 months and less than 100 hours of operation.

 

"But if you want to use the synthetic and spend more money and then replace it less in order to SPEND THE SAME AMOUNT go ahead."
And who changes your oil for you, wee little elves in the middle of the night?
To me an oil change consumes at least 1/2 hour of my time, draining it out, pouring it in, cleaning up the spills, dumping the old oil someplace, buying new oil and stockpiling it or making the extra trip (add more time), so saving half the oil changes liberates at least a half hour of my time, probably closer to an hour.
And then there are also half as many spills or cleanups. If you think you are only saving ten bucks on oil, or twenty bucks on oil and a filter, you're doing the math wrong.

Then there's the engine itself. I started using Mobil1 back in the mid-0's when it was a radical new product available from no one else. That's because I saw the engine tear-down pictures of commercial fleet engines run on premium motor oil versus synthetic. Take off the valve cover, and the best motor oils you can buy still will leave it coated with tar and coke. Some of that flakes off, and now you've got an oil failure when it plugs an orifice. Same engines, same use, with full synthetic oil? There's no coke, no tar, no blockages.

You don't need a lab to see obvious differences that can literally make or break an engine. But hey, if you want to spend the same amount of money using an obsolete product and consuming twice as much of your time and effort...<G>...Isn't that really the way it works out when you do it twice as often? You're not saving anything! And, you're creating twice as much waste in the recycling stream, for the filters and the oil alike.

 

But hey, if you want to spend the same amount of money using an obsolete product and consuming twice as much of your time and effort...<G>...Isn't that really the way it works out when you do it twice as often? You're not saving anything! And, you're creating twice as much waste in the recycling stream, for the filters and the oil alike.

Since I change the oil myself ONCE a year no matter what oil I may have used, I don't believe it is costing me any extra time or waste. And the old oil goes into the marina oil recycle tank that is used to heat the place anyway.

I don't know when oil became "obsolete", but based on my oil analysis it is doing a great job!

Synthetic oil has been around way longer than my engine, but just old obsolete oil is what the manufacturer says to use. But if it makes you feel good I'm all for you using it in yours.

 

i change my oil every 100 hours and filters double time.
i change my oil before i sit for summer and after i travel the needed miles to get to wherever i go. sometimes i change oil underway.i changed it before runaway diesel and again just after, and again just before i sail out, and .... mine gets changed many times annually.
i usually travel no fewer than 200 miles each trip, unless bay hopping.