[captain jack]

hi folks. i have scheduled for my rig inspection and tune and i will be measuing the actual measurements for the fore and aft triangles. so, now is the time for sincere thought about sails.

i am considering running her as a sloop with a 100% jib; maybe set up as self tending.

i have also considered setting it up as a cutter with a 90% forestaysail and the smaller jib. the boat was designed and set up with the cutter option as a possibility. one thought about that is it has a lot of rig flexibility in different conditions. i could also set the ( smaller ) jib up as self tending. i like this option but then i'd probably have to use running stays and simpler is better.

i haven't decided yet about headsails. i will discuss these options with my rigger and, of course, the sails that the marina has ( which i can look through and choose what i want ) will have some bearing on what i do.

but my real question for this thread is about full battens in mainsails.

they are good for performance and i hear they reef well. this boat would not have had full batten mains and you usually only see multihulls using them but, i think it might be a good consideration. i have no intention of racing. i will be mostly cruising ( day sailing when i don't have time to go for more than an afternoon).

so, any thoughts about that option? one question is availability. i am thinking used catamaran sails. the only concern i have is the depth of the roach. i have a backstay and a lot of catamaran sails have a pretty deep roach. of course, i could use a sail with a slightly shorter luff but a deeper roach. for all around cruising a more moderate aspect sail is better, anyway. i think the original for this boat was fairly high aspect.

anyhow, if anyone has any input i'd be glad to hear it. thanks

ps. plus, catamaran sails are usually so colorful and pretty!

 

[christian.hess]

catamaran sails have big roaches...no good for you unless modifying your rearstay to dual

in my opinion you only need a single reef point on a boat your size

full battens are not needed...but if you find one that fits for cheap go for it

pay attention to roach

 

[paulk]

We have had full batten mains on our boat over the past dozen years, but have moved to a combination of full (at the top) and partial battens lately because it's lighter. We race considerably, and like to think it makes a difference. The full batten sails did tend to last longer, but they were also buiit of heavier, more cruising-oriented material (dacron). Such sails may looked ok, wear-wise, for many years, even if the shape isn't still optimal.

 

[Faster]

Jack.. as I understand it you're looking at used sails? In all likelihood sails from a catamaran will be too roachy, as Christian mentioned. Full battened sails are quieter, better behaved but heavier.. but really, if you find a sail with dimensions that match well, I think condition and fit are more important than full/regular/long battens. Simply pick the best sail that fits.

You may find in the long haul that only a 100% jib will be inadequate unless you're sailing in breezes over 10 knots most of the time - and even then it will probably only be satisfactory if you're beating. Off the wind it will all be a bit small/underpowered but if you get a spinnaker of some sort that will offset that issue a lot.

Definite handling advantage in keeping your headsails with only a minimum overlap - quicker, easier tacking even without going to the extra gear/cost of self tacking/tending arrangements.

I really think you're best off keeping her a sloop with the right mix of sails over trying to cobble up a double headed rig.

 

[captain jack]

catamaran sails have big roaches...no good for you unless modifying your rearstay to dual

in my opinion you only need a single reef point on a boat your size

full battens are not needed...but if you find one that fits for cheap go for it

pay attention to roach

i am aware of that. it is, of course, a big issue since i have a backstay.

are you sure one reef would be enough? i don't really want to be overpowered in a squall out on the bay.

 

[christian.hess]

Im a fan of less reef points...there is more to do and damage if you get hit with big winds...in an untimely manner or if you reef late!

that never happens btw, ever! jajaja

If I where designing a good cruising sail for an around the world deal again I would only have 2 reef points not the common or recomended 3

1 that takes 25% off maybe 30% sail area and another that takes almost 80% off and the reasoning behind that is I have noticed rigging trysails or heavy weather storm sails on the mast often fail while being installed or gets too tricky...another track, taking sail outside etc

so Id prefer to use the main sail, reduced almost completely and make it into a storm trysail

ideally the upper triangle of the main would be heavily reinforced and the clew would be tied onto the boom using high tech line...boom made fast using mini preventers on each side of the cabin top or deck if possible ideally the clew would be placed to allo the boom to be made fast to the deck but that would mess with sail performance having a hole in the middhle of the sail but anywhoo...

in any case

regarding full battens...im very famiiliar with hobie sails...inn fact I have one here if you want pics...your boat might have a similar sized main but wont be sure

if its easy for you to rig up twin backstays go ahead and that will buy you some space...

and lastly regarding wind speed and strength although not feasible on all boats Im a big fan of spilling a full main on small boats versus reefing madness that is more a quick fix and racing scenario...as if the wind dies down again you have full power...but it also simplifies sailing for me.

that does not mean I dont like to reef, it means on small mid 20 footers(you are 27) I find that I like how the boat performs much better with a small correctly trimmed jib say a 100 percenter and I simply spill the main

I did this on my folkboat a lot as they like to be sailed like dinghys

what I mean about that is that foresail trim is much more important in heavy weather than the main is

its the jib that lets you attack the wind and keep correct speed and angle to the wind not the main

the main can be thought of as power in these scenarios not direction or control...with high winds you want less power but remain in control...direction most importantly.

so anyways

dont go crazy looking for 3 reef mains or full battens although like mentioned full batten mains are great

they make furling or flaking the main easy as pie...and they fall down much faster and easier...some light mains are a hassle if you ask me

and well like faster said look for best condition sails for your boat not specifics like full or partial battens etc...

id pay more attention to stitching, eyes, fabric condition than if it had full battens or not

but if you do go looking for full batten sails how about some dimensions so maybe we can search for some big roached battened sails from other boats?

jeje

 

[captain jack]

Jack.. as I understand it you're looking at used sails?

yes. that's right. with all that needs done, i figure used now and upgrade later. plus, depending on what sails the marina has, i may not have to pay for sails, immediately.

In all likelihood sails from a catamaran will be too roachy, as Christian mentioned. Full battened sails are quieter, better behaved but heavier.. but really, if you find a sail with dimensions that match well, I think condition and fit are more important than full/regular/long battens. Simply pick the best sail that fits.

very good point

You may find in the long haul that only a 100% jib will be inadequate unless you're sailing in breezes over 10 knots most of the time - and even then it will probably only be satisfactory if you're beating. Off the wind it will all be a bit small/underpowered but if you get a spinnaker of some sort that will offset that issue a lot.

Definite handling advantage in keeping your headsails with only a minimum overlap - quicker, easier tacking even without going to the extra gear/cost of self tacking/tending arrangements.

you may be right. summers in this region can be slow. however, i sail all year and you can get some seriously heavy weather and it can pipe up rather quickly.

the first consideration is safety and the experience of my crew. my girlfriend ( my most likely crew ) has never even stepped on board a boat til i went to look at this one. none of my friends has ever sailed on a boat. so, i want to avoid complexity. i have two spinnakers for the boat. i don't intend to try them out ( never used one before )until i have a competent crew.

i was thinking a 100% jib would have a larger range of usable conditions than a big jenny. slower in light airs but able to handle heavier winds. i really don't care about wiinning any races.

the trouble with going for a 150, or bigger, jenny is that you either have to roller reef ( which was my original thought ), which a lot of people don't seem to hold in high opinion, or someone needs to go forwards on a heaving foredeck to change it. my girlfriend has never been on a boat so i don't think sending her forwards is a great idea. but, she also doesn't know how to sail so i'm not hip on the idea of giving her the helm, in a situation, while i go change the sail.

that's where the idea of the cutter set up comes in. two headsails; one of moderate size and one smaller, both with roller furlers. no one need go forward to change the sails. you can sail under full canvass when it's light and have a flexible sail plan for when it's not. it has it's drawbacks. but, then, so does every option.[/quote]

I really think you're best off keeping her a sloop with the right mix of sails over trying to cobble up a double headed rig.

that route does have it's benefits. no argument there.

 

[JonEisberg]

I really think you're best off keeping her a sloop with the right mix of sails over trying to cobble up a double headed rig.

Agree 1000%...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you've never actually SAILED this boat yet, right? Why would you be already considering changes in the designer's original sailplan?

It would help if you could offer some photos, or line drawing of the sailplan, for starters...

Where will you be sailing? If primarily on the Chesapeake, as Faster noted, going to a 100% or self-tacking headsail will leave you woefully underpowered most of the time... You describe your main as being "high aspect", and small headsails are generally not going to work very well with such a main, especially in a place like the Chesapeake, during the summer... Not to mention, doing something like adding roach to your main, while simultaneously reducing the size of your headsail, will likely only serve to increase weather helm when the breeze pipes up, or make the boat even more unbalanced if running DDW, wing & wing...

I love my full-battened main (and I'm mystified why you think they are not commonly seen on monohulls), but you are likely looking at considerable added expense in going that route... On boats around 30' or so, I think you really want to consider the addition of a Strong Track or similar to make a full-batten main work well, and while that's money well spent, it's not an inexpensive upgrade...

I realize it's a normal tendency when one acquires a new boat, but I'm a big believer in actually USING the boat for a season or so, before embarking on a host of modifications or upgrades... Especially regarding stuff as elemental as the rig, or sailplan... You're gonna make far smarter decisions, and likely avoid spending money on changes that may not necessarily work or be worth the expense, by actually sailing the boat for awhile ...

 

[captain jack]

Im a fan of less reef points...there is more to do and damage if you get hit with big winds...in an untimely manner or if you reef late!

that never happens btw, ever! jajaja

If I where designing a good cruising sail for an around the world deal again I would only have 2 reef points not the common or recomended 3

1 that takes 25% off maybe 30% sail area and another that takes almost 80% off and the reasoning behind that is I have noticed rigging trysails or heavy weather storm sails on the mast often fail while being installed or gets too tricky...another track, taking sail outside etc

so Id prefer to use the main sail, reduced almost completely and make it into a storm trysail

ideally the upper triangle of the main would be heavily reinforced and the clew would be tied onto the boom using high tech line...boom made fast using mini preventers on each side of the cabin top or deck if possible ideally the clew would be placed to allo the boom to be made fast to the deck but that would mess with sail performance having a hole in the middhle of the sail but anywhoo...

in any case

regarding full battens...im very famiiliar with hobie sails...inn fact I have one here if you want pics...your boat might have a similar sized main but wont be sure

if its easy for you to rig up twin backstays go ahead and that will buy you some space...

actually, the boat has a split backstay, so, it has two chainplates in the stern. i wouldn't think it would be too hard to do twin backstays. i will discuss that with the rigger. you think twin backstays would allow a deeper roach, if i find a full batten sail that, otherwise, fits?

and lastly regarding wind speed and strength although not feasible on all boats Im a big fan of spilling a full main on small boats versus reefing madness that is more a quick fix and racing scenario...as if the wind dies down again you have full power...but it also simplifies sailing for me.

basically, a fisherman's reef. that's how i have always handled heavy weather. i never have had a boat with reef points. on the holiday 20, i use a fisherman's reef and, since it has a headsail ( unlike my dinghy ), if it gets too high for that, i drop the jib and sail under main alone. then i ease it, allowing the luff to lose shape a bit, if it gets high enough for it. you have a lot of control doing that. you can even hold her still on the water, bow to wind, by playing the main that way.

but, i do want to be able to reef enough to handle the worst the bay has to offer.
[/quote]

that does not mean I dont like to reef, it means on small mid 20 footers(you are 27) I find that I like how the boat performs much better with a small correctly trimmed jib say a 100 percenter and I simply spill the main

I did this on my folkboat a lot as they like to be sailed like dinghys

what I mean about that is that foresail trim is much more important in heavy weather than the main is

its the jib that lets you attack the wind and keep correct speed and angle to the wind not the main

true. although i've never had a problem with a cat rigged dinghy or sailing the holiday under main alone.

the main can be thought of as power in these scenarios not direction or control...with high winds you want less power but remain in control...direction most importantly.

so anyways

dont go crazy looking for 3 reef mains or full battens although like mentioned full batten mains are great

they make furling or flaking the main easy as pie...and they fall down much faster and easier...some light mains are a hassle if you ask me

and well like faster said look for best condition sails for your boat not specifics like full or partial battens etc...

id pay more attention to stitching, eyes, fabric condition than if it had full battens or not

but if you do go looking for full batten sails how about some dimensions so maybe we can search for some big roached battened sails from other boats?

jeje

good advice. you both agree on that point. i am supposed to take measurements today but the weekend has been screwed up, so far, so there may be a short delay in that. but i will post measurements here, when i get them.

 

[christian.hess]

ok here is an idea and I HAVE seen it not common but here goes

make a baby sprit...out of nice strong wood plank...tie a simple galvanized wire or chain or rod down to the hull just above water level...with a nice stainless eye.

this sprit can serve as an anchor roller station or simply a stepping plate too etc when doing the titanic scenes with the girlfriend

BUT also it simply allow you to use another attachment point for sails

if you are really fancy you can rig a second stay using for simplicity sake 7x19 wire that is more flexy or even high tech line to a block that you can haul in tight...you can use the same attachment point as your forestay even though you aspect will be slightly bigger and not as good for upwind performance but you will have ways to mount different sails

now honestly 2 stays on a 27 footer is a bit too mch for me...but its your boat

for me hank on jibs or here is anothetr thought

rig up a club jib on a pole...self tacking...and then find a 130 small genny or omething for those 10knot days...

good options in my opinion

all other option require modufying the mast....if you put a solent stay or cutter rig you kind if have to add running stays or at least beef up the aft lowers or backstay as is

cheers

 

[christian.hess]

actually, the boat has a split backstay, so, it has two chainplates in the stern. i wouldn't think it would be too hard to do twin backstays. i will discuss that with the rigger. you think twin backstays would allow a deeper roach, if i find a full batten sail that, otherwise, fits?



basically, a fisherman's reef. that's how i have always handled heavy weather. i never have had a boat with reef points. on the holiday 20, i use a fisherman's reef and, since it has a headsail ( unlike my dinghy ), if it gets too high for that, i drop the jib and sail under main alone. then i ease it, allowing the luff to lose shape a bit, if it gets high enough for it. you have a lot of control doing that. you can even hold her still on the water, bow to wind, by playing the main that way.

but, i do want to be able to reef enough to handle the worst the bay has to offer.

true. although i've never had a problem with a cat rigged dinghy or sailing the holiday under main alone.



good advice. you both agree on that point. i am supposed to take measurements today but the weekend has been screwed up, so far, so there may be a short delay in that. but i will post measurements here, when i get them.[/QUOTE]

if you have to plates out back all you need to to is get two stays to them...yes you need to buy some wire and it would be nice to see if your tang up top could accept to stays

have split stays will allow you have to have a big roach for mcuh more degrees than currently available

if the roacj goes back a lot straught back lie americas cup mains...then you nmight not be able to pull it off, they will hit the stays even if twin

if you are looking at roaches like on a hobie they are fuller mid section and curve slowly into the hed of the sail...

in any case you have options

I had a boat with a club jib and then like 5 headsails to chose from...I only used the club for simple out in scenarios and then a nice mylar kevlar 130%

great combo in my opinion

both used with full main...never reefed that puppy

this was on an excalibur 26

 

[captain jack]

Agree 1000%...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you've never actually SAILED this boat yet, right? Why would you be already considering changes in the designer's original sailplan?

no. you are not wrong. i am trying to work up a sail plan that will be best for my needs. as it is, i don't have the sails the boat originally came with. i have bare poles. i have access to a number of sails that i can choose from. the marina i bought it from has agreed to that. they don't need them, anyway. but that means i have a clean slate.

the boat was designed with racing in mind. later versions of it were more cruiser oriented. i don't care about racing. i'm not going to be racing. i want safe cruising. don't get me wrong, i like a turn of speed. but, i am more concerned with safety than speed. i will be short handed, to the point of almost being single handed ( due to inexperienced crew ). usually, the only tasks i have crew do is handle the jibsheets and stern lines, anyway.

anyhow, knowing it's original set up was for racing, and not having headsails or main, i want to choose a sail plan that will fit my needs.

i do some have experience setting up a sail plan on a boat. so, it's not quite like some guy just randomly throwing different sails on. i realize that i will have to consider sail balance when i choose sails. i do drawings and figure out CE and CLR while designing a sail or sail plan. of course, things like CE and CLR really are theoretical guestimations that don't directly translate to the real world. you work with them but, without the appropriate modern computer tech, it's not a sure thing. i am old fashioned, low tech.

It would help if you could offer some photos, or line drawing of the sailplan, for starters...

i will see what i can do about that...might take me a little. let me see what i can find. if i draw it out, it will take a little longer

Where will you be sailing? If primarily on the Chesapeake

you got it

, as Faster noted, going to a 100% or self-tacking headsail will leave you woefully underpowered most of the time... You describe your main as being "high aspect", and small headsails

it should be noted that the fore triangle is between 40 and 50% of the LOA, which is one reason it can be rigged as a cutter. technically, the mast is positioned as in a cutter not a sloop. the boom isn't as long as the distance between the mast and the bottom of the forestay. it's also a masthead rig, not fractional. so, even a 100% jib is going to be bigger than the main. i will get you the claimed sizes.

are generally not going to work very well with such a main, especially in a place like the Chesapeake, during the summer... Not to mention, doing something like adding roach to your main, while simultaneously reducing the size of your headsail, will likely only serve to increase weather helm when the breeze pipes up, or make the boat even more unbalanced if running DDW, wing & wing...

like i said, previously, i wouldn't choose sails without first considering that.

I love my full-battened main (and I'm mystified why you think they are not commonly seen on monohulls)

around here, i haven't seen very many full batten sails on monohulls. in fact, i can't think of any i have personally seen. you see them all the time on catamarans.

, but you are likely looking at considerable added expense in going that route... On boats around 30' or so, I think you really want to consider the addition of a Strong Track or similar to make a full-batten main work well, and while that's money well spent, it's not an inexpensive upgrade...

can you go into that further, please? i have never used full batten sails, before, so i can use as much info as i need.

I realize it's a normal tendency when one acquires a new boat, but I'm a big believer in actually USING the boat for a season or so, before embarking on a host of modifications or upgrades... Especially regarding stuff as elemental as the rig, or sailplan... You're gonna make far smarter decisions, and likely avoid spending money on changes that may not necessarily work or be worth the expense, by actually sailing the boat for awhile ...

if i already had sails, i would do just that. but, i don't. i am not sure what, if any, sails i will find i can use from the ones the marina will give me. and, if i have to buy sails, i might as well put some consideration into what i get.

this boat is like a blank slate. really, i have a hull and spars. that's it.

 

[Faster]

The standard rig dimensions are handwritten onto the bottom of the last page of this document:

http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS_files/Cal 27 Color Brochure.pdf

 

[captain jack]

ok here is an idea and I HAVE seen it not common but here goes

make a baby sprit...out of nice strong wood plank...tie a simple galvanized wire or chain or rod down to the hull just above water level...with a nice stainless eye.

this sprit can serve as an anchor roller station or simply a stepping plate too etc when doing the titanic scenes with the girlfriend

BUT also it simply allow you to use another attachment point for sails

if you are really fancy you can rig a second stay using for simplicity sake 7x19 wire that is more flexy or even high tech line to a block that you can haul in tight...you can use the same attachment point as your forestay even though you aspect will be slightly bigger and not as good for upwind performance but you will have ways to mount different sails

not needed. these boats are designed to have a staysail added behind the jib. the mast is close to the center of the boat ( between 40 and 50% of the loa ), unlike with a sloop which carroes the mast more forwards. there are even attachment points for the additional stay. like on a cal 39. i will see if i can find a drawing of that cal 39 to show you.

now honestly 2 stays on a 27 footer is a bit too mch for me...but its your boat

for me hank on jibs or here is anothetr thought

rig up a club jib on a pole...self tacking...and then find a 130 small genny or omething for those 10knot days...

good options in my opinion

all other option require modufying the mast....if you put a solent stay or cutter rig you kind if have to add running stays or at least beef up the aft lowers or backstay as is

cheers

http://http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/michaelangel442-albums-misc-picture3697-cutterrig-cal-39.jpg

here you go. this is an image that MichaelAngel442 linked to about the cutter issue.

in fact, except for the coach roof/deck design ( it's not set up as a 'convertable' like mine ), this drawing could be an drawing of my boat. so, it gives you an idea of the sail plan. just ignore the inner stay, to see how it is set up, now. the keel is slightly different, though. just in shape, really.

 

[captain jack]

The standard rig dimensions are handwritten onto the bottom of the last page of this document:

http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS_files/Cal 27 Color Brochure.pdf

thanks for posting that. i have a brochure saved on my computer and i do have the stated dimensions but i can't be totally sure that those numbers are correct for my boat, until i measure. but, that does give anyone wanting to look over my sail plan a really good starting point. i really don't think mine will be different but 42 years is a long time for things to change in.

 

[christian.hess]

I forgot you mentioned in another thread you have those inner stay connections...

and now that I remember yu boat you are absolutely right you have a thin or high aspect ractio main...i.e small boom and a big foresail

so rigging an inner stay is more feasible and will not mess with your helm

if its easy I think a club jib works great on these boats and then simply when needed hank on a big one...130 plus

thats whay I would do

for mains whatever you can find...in the best condition you can afford

I know how you feel about not having a base to start with...without the original sails you can improve or modify or know if infact you are better off than stock

we did this with a few boats small keelers and basically it was just install stails see if they fit if so great if not look for something else jajaja

 

[Faster]

thanks for posting that. i have a brochure saved on my computer and i do have the stated dimensions but i can't be totally sure that those numbers are correct for my boat, until i measure. but, that does give anyone wanting to look over my sail plan a really good starting point. i really don't think mine will be different but 42 years is a long time for things to change in.

Also means you can cruise through the available inventory and cull out the sails that 'may' fit, then confirm precisely once you've confirmed the measurements.. look for sails that seem several inches too small.. they'll stretch.

 

[christian.hess]

not needed. these boats are designed to have a staysail added behind the jib. the mast is close to the center of the boat ( between 40 and 50% of the loa ), unlike with a sloop which carroes the mast more forwards. there are even attachment points for the additional stay. like on a cal 39. i will see if i can find a drawing of that cal 39 to show you.



http://http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/michaelangel442-albums-misc-picture3697-cutterrig-cal-39.jpg

here you go. this is an image that MichaelAngel442 linked to about the cutter issue.

in fact, except for the coach roof/deck design ( it's not set up as a 'convertable' like mine ), this drawing could be an drawing of my boat. so, it gives you an idea of the sail plan. just ignore the inner stay, to see how it is set up, now.

does you boat have the connections or not?

that cal 39 design is very similar to my boat()islander 36) inner stay installations are a common addition for offshore sailing

 

[captain jack]

[URL="[/URL]

this is what i am talking about with my sail plsan options. the one to the left is the cal39. in the middle is the cal27 set up as a cutter ( the way i would set it up ). on the right is as a sloop with 100% jib.

 

[captain jack]

does you boat have the connections or not?

that cal 39 design is very similar to my boat()islander 36) inner stay installations are a common addition for offshore sailing

yes. it's got the connections. i don't have a pic with that sail plan so i used the one he posted. if you go back to the thread, "looking for owners of 1971 cal 27", you will see that we had discussed the cutter option a little. i wouldn't even know about that option if it hadn't have been for Michael.