[Rzulick]

I have owned a Catalina 27 since 1985. It really has been a great and economical boat.
My wife has become more prone to seasickness and has grown tired of the excessive rocking and rolling even at our mooring on busy or windy days.
I'm interested in moving up to a larger boat but do a fair amount if singlehanded sailing.
I have been looking at full keel boats ( for stability and blue water capability) and like a Cape Dory 31 cutter rigged boat. I know that full keel boats are sluggish but want a boat my wife will feel more comfortable on.
Would I be better off simply looking at larger boats like a pearson 36?
Any recommendations would be appreciated!

 

[krisscross]

CD31 is a rather narrow boat so it still rocks quite a bit. But it is a great boat for what you want to do. Have you looked at the Island Packet boats? People love them for comfort and safety. IP31 is an awesome boat.

 

[Jeff_H]

A couple quick thoughts here:
People who are prone to motion sickness fall in one of three categories:1. People who get sick from quick motion, 2. People who get sick from wide ranges of motion, and 3. people who get sick from both forms of motion.

-The Catalina 27 has a particularly 'corky' motion which means it tends to move pretty quickly. Its understandable that your wife would suffer motion sickness on a Catalina 27.
-Full keels have less than zero to do with motion comfort. While some full keel boats have hull forms and weight distributions that result in a slower roll speed, those boats generally tend to roll through bigger angles. For a seasickness prone person in the second or third category, they are more likely to get seasick on one of these boats rather than less.
-A boat that is too wide or too narrow will have uncomfortable motions but different kinds and for different reasons. The Cape Dory 31 falls in the too narrow category.
- As a very broad generality, within reason, the longer the boat for its weight, the more comfortable it is likely to be for all three categories.
- Take Island Packets off your list since they have a really poor motion in a chop.
-There are a lot of things that can be done for seasickness. When an adult becomes more prone to seasickness it often involves sinus issues. Getting lots of sleep and avoiding alcohol can also help with seasickness. Ginger ale can help for some folks. My wife takes Stugeron which is a comparatively inexpensive miracle drug for her. Unfortunately, its not sold in the US so she has to order it online from Australia or New Zealand.

Jeff

 

[Rzulick]

How do you think the 1985 Pearson 36 would rate in the motion department?

 

[Faster]

I think that that's a pretty brawny, big boat with a great interior and you'll be rather astounded at the improvement in 'solidness' you'll feel over the old C 27. Similarly a Catalina 36 would keep you 'in the family' and be another great choice for what you're contemplating (unless, of course, the 'blue water' part of your plans was for real...)

It's funny.. as we 'upgraded' during the first part of our boating life, each successive boat's keel/ballast alone equaled or exceeded the previous boat's total displacement. The difference in motion/momentum was initially astonishing.

 

[travlin-easy]

I sail a 33 Morgan Out Island, 13-foot beam, full keel, sloop rig. It sails like a dream, doesn't heel more than 10 to 15 degrees with 20 knot winds on a beam reach, won't point real tight like the C27, but it will sail just as fast or faster most of the time ( I owned both.)

The one thing that most full keeled boats do not do very well is back up. We all suffer from the same problem with this V/S the fin keel setup on the C26 and C30, both of which back up like you're parking a car.

At anchor, the boat rarely rolls, and is always very stable. My daughter is the kind of person that has always been prone to motion sickness. She cannot even ride in the back seat of a car because she gets motion sickness. On my Morgan, she never even feels queezy in rough weather. It's a totally different ride with a full keeled boat.

Good luck,

Gary

 

[newhaul]

What you really want to look at is the comfort ratio for the boats you are looking at

 

[Tenoch]

I think you'll find either will be more stable. I moved up 4 feet, and added a cut-away full keel and you can definitely tell the difference. Just stepping on the boat from the dock feels more stable. They are currently docked side by side, and when I feel the boat Im on (the full keeler) rocking in a wake, I look out side and the smaller fin keeler is bouncing all over the place!

 

[Jeff_H]

What you really want to look at is the comfort ratio for the boats you are looking at

With all due respect, what you do not want to do is look at the Comfort Ratio, since the comfort ratio has almost none of the factors which actually impact the motion comfort of the boat. As Brewer himself said, he developed the CR as a tongue in cheek exercise. The CR provides no useful information and frankly is very misleading in its results.

 

[Jeff_H]

I think you'll find either will be more stable. I moved up 4 feet, and added a cut-away full keel and you can definitely tell the difference. Just stepping on the boat from the dock feels more stable. They are currently docked side by side, and when I feel the boat Im on (the full keeler) rocking in a wake, I look out side and the smaller fin keeler is bouncing all over the place!

The extra stability and motion comfort you describe has everything to do with the extra waterline length, displacement and the hull form of the bigger boat and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the boat has a full keel.

Jeff

 

[TQA]

Try your wife on a catamaran.

 

[SVAuspicious]

I have been looking at full keel boats ( for stability and blue water capability)

And just what is it about a full keel that makes you think that stability or bluewater capability (whatever that means) will be improved?

 

[Jeff_H]

Try your wife on a catamaran.

Since the OP said his wife gets seasick on their Catalina 27, it would suggest that she is at least of the type prone to higher speed type motion sickness. A cat would be a poor choice since cats are more likely to gave higher speed motions even though they are through smaller angles.

 

[Pegu club]

The extra stability and motion comfort you describe has everything to do with the extra waterline length, displacement and the hull form of the bigger boat and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the boat has a full keel.

Jeff

Question, we have a 1975 Bristol corsair, cutaway full keel, 24.7 feet at just under 6000 lbs, 3000 in the keel. We moor around several other 24 to 26 ft boats, and we bounce around substantially less in every condition. Among them are a Precision, an Oday, and a Cape Dory 25D etc, is it overall displacement or some other factor that accounts for the Bristols kinder motion, being that length over all is within 2ft of each other?

It's hard for this rookie sailor to imagine that the full keel has nothing to do with it, it seems contrary to much of what I read/ hear. Thanks for your thoughts.

We are in our 3rd year sailing, and have had her in as much as 6ft swells at 9second intervals, (most entertaining) and the corsair slides up and over the swells with a very kind motion, really like this aspect of the boat.

 

[SVAuspicious]

Question, we have a 1975 Bristol corsair, cutaway full keel, 24.7 feet at just under 6000 lbs, 3000 in the keel. We moor around several other 24 to 26 ft boats, and we bounce around substantially less in every condition. Among them are a Precision, an Oday, and a Cape Dory 25D etc, is it overall displacement or some other factor that accounts for the Bristols kinder motion, being that length over all is within 2ft of each other?

There is no one simple answer.

First, motion on a mooring is often different from motion underway.

Length overall (LOA) is not important. Length on the waterline (LWL) is.

Hull form is the most important factor. Full sections will reduce motion and generally make motion kinder. That same hull form results in a slower boat underway in a seaway. Everything is a compromise. Hull forms with fine sections forward and quite full ones aft may slap a bit at anchor but will be faster underway, particularly in a seaway.

"Bounce around" isn't very specific. A full keel boat is likely to yaw a bit less, but could easily roll more. Pitch is more a factor of waterplane area and longitudinal moment of inertia. Ultimately your Bristol probably moves less on the mooring than the boats you compare to mostly because she is heavy.

It would be interesting to have side-by-side comparisons of your Bristol and the 25D underway.

 

[christian.hess]

this is one of those questions that spark hate and ire in many for no apparent reason...kind of like an anchor thread, or what oil is best thread or how VOYAGING isnt VOYAGING if its under 500 a month thread or whatever...

if you feel a boats motion is nicer and notice it has a full keel or is heavier and or is slower moving then note that.

no matter what math says and or what the designer INTENDED in the REAL world its what you feel and notice that will tell you weather a full keel boat is indeed better motioned at sea than a fin keeler or a wine glass hull is better than a tub a butter boat etc...

or or or or or so many examples here

all that matters is what you feel and how the boat reacts to conditions out there...

 

[christian.hess]

Question, we have a 1975 Bristol corsair, cutaway full keel, 24.7 feet at just under 6000 lbs, 3000 in the keel. We moor around several other 24 to 26 ft boats, and we bounce around substantially less in every condition. Among them are a Precision, an Oday, and a Cape Dory 25D etc, is it overall displacement or some other factor that accounts for the Bristols kinder motion, being that length over all is within 2ft of each other?

It's hard for this rookie sailor to imagine that the full keel has nothing to do with it, it seems contrary to much of what I read/ hear. Thanks for your thoughts.

We are in our 3rd year sailing, and have had her in as much as 6ft swells at 9second intervals, (most entertaining) and the corsair slides up and over the swells with a very kind motion, really like this aspect of the boat.

remember this feeling and ingrain it in your brain...you are right and are seing right now..dont let the bombardment of info out there tell you otherwise

one of the simplest examples of what you saw is this...you have a very very solid 50%ballast to displacement ratio..

irregardless of hull shape(within reason) you will react slower than a 25% ballasted boat

anyone who argues that even he or she is a designer is trying to get you to understand other criteria apart from the basics

the basics are very simple..

waterline length
overall hull length
draft
mast height(think rolling effect when paired with ballast depth)
ballast
displacement
hull shape

(like auspicious mentioned at a mooring and underway are very dissimilar instances of how a boat handles conditions...)

these are what will arguably matter most when talking about stability and "motion" comfort which really is a left field factor that was invented partly in joke

HOWEVER HAVING SAID THAT I find that some boats are indeed categorized better or worse and mimick reality in certain cases this doesnt mean its the only ratio you should pay attention too

in any case

 

[christian.hess]

Since the OP said his wife gets seasick on their Catalina 27, it would suggest that she is at least of the type prone to higher speed type motion sickness. A cat would be a poor choice since cats are more likely to gave higher speed motions even though they are through smaller angles.

despite me being a crusing cat HATER(for reasons other than motion comfort) I have found that the opposite is true..

cruising cats are especially mellow in their motions mostly when sailing conservatively

at anchor unless in a chop they are practically a houseboat they are so stable

its largely a reason why women love to cruise on cats so much...not only space but ease of motion

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW get crazy with sail trim and speed and you can get a can a whooopass in no time hit a wave wrong, slam the underbody just right and or lift an ama(yes on a cruising cat this does happen more than you would imagine) and scary FAST is an understatement FAST motions too

we saw numerous occasiions of this will buddy boating with 2 cats up the red sea

they would sail the cat so conservatively they were actually slower than us...however the always motored with 1 engine

if sailing in less than 10 knots they were full sails up, anything over 10 they reefed down to scraps of sail and motorsailed upwind...

whereas monhulls would be full blast ahead sail wise and yes roughing it more comfort wise...

this has most to do with wind angles and direction but it really opened my eyes to how comfortable or uncomfortable cats CAN be.

anywhoo

 

[SVAuspicious]

cruising cats are especially mellow in their motions mostly when sailing conservatively

Well, not quite. The biggest issue with cats is that the natural period of pitch and the natural period of roll are rather close to one another. That means in some conditions (more often than one would like) and at some angles to the sea the boat moves like a corkscrew. That motion sets lots of people off.

As you say, sailing conservatively helps. Being conservative may include avoiding offshore passages in weather.

its largely a reason why women love to cruise on cats so much...not only space but ease of motion

Not to speak for women as I am demonstrably not fit to do so. Many people like cats better because they don't heel much at all. You can put something down and expect it to be there when you get back.

Even if the motions (which are mostly about acceleration) are sometimes odd in a sea, the excursions are less.

 

[Pegu club]

There is no one simple answer.

First, motion on a mooring is often different from motion underway.

Length overall (LOA) is not important. Length on the waterline (LWL) is.

Hull form is the most important factor. Full sections will reduce motion and generally make motion kinder. That same hull form results in a slower boat underway in a seaway. Everything is a compromise. Hull forms with fine sections forward and quite full ones aft may slap a bit at anchor but will be faster underway, particularly in a seaway.

"Bounce around" isn't very specific. A full keel boat is likely to yaw a bit less, but could easily roll more. Pitch is more a factor of waterplane area and longitudinal moment of inertia. Ultimately your Bristol probably moves less on the mooring than the boats you compare to mostly because she is heavy.

It would be interesting to have side-by-side comparisons of your Bristol and the 25D underway.

I do expect that the Cape Dory 25D is faster, lighter displacement from my understanding. Cape Dory's have a good reputation concerning seaworthiness/ and a sea kindly motion. we have thought about a CD36