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I kinna doubt they are going to skyrocket. With fracing and cheap gas, the greater risk is for people in the installation business. If the price goes up a just a little the projects stop making sense.
 

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I kinna doubt they are going to skyrocket. With fracing and cheap gas, the greater risk is for people in the installation business. If the price goes up a just a little the projects stop making sense.
If you are right, how many more Americans are going to be out of work because a tariff is being put on something we don't even manufacture in this country?
I thought tariffs were to protect our industries, not destroy them.
 
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More interesting is what the retribution is going to be?

We've been in tariff wars before and suffered greatly as a result. I wonder what American industries will be targeted in response?
 

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Knowing this was planned, but mainly because it was timely for me, I bought my solar panel (325 watt Panasonic ~$320) around a month ago. The analysis that I've read; however, is that for most solar panel installations, which involve many panels, the increase in cost is going to be relatively small compared to the labor and other things such as batteries. If I recall right, my MPPT controller was around $350. I've heard that the panels might be less than 20 percent of the overall price of a home system and about one-third the cost of a large, utility-scale plant. Of course, if you're only buying one or two panels, that 30% increase from the tariffs might seem huge. (Trump's decision, by the way, was also less than what the ITC had recommended.) The bigger news is that there's already been a shift to renewable energy. While all this might have some effect on those individuals contemplating solar for their homes, I think it will be temporary once the issue dies down and it's probably not going to affect larger solar projects at all.
 

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If you are right, how many more Americans are going to be out of work because a tariff is being put on something we don't even manufacture in this country?
I thought tariffs were to protect our industries, not destroy them.
They can be helpful to create jobs in the U.S.. Just like the Japanese and other foreign car manufacturers started building plants and producing cars here in the U.S. Might start seeing Solar Panels being produced here as well.
 

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There are many angles to this. Some positive, some negative. No doubt solar prices will rise a bit, particularly imports. One question is whether it was even ethically right to have cheap solar panels on the back of cheap labor in China. Would anyone advocate letting a US manufacturer operate under the same rules (minimum wage, occupational safety, insurance, work hours, benefits, etc) as their Chinese counterpart? How about a European solar manufacturer, which I think is where the best quality is made. If not, I would say advocating for cheap Chinese stuff is hypocritical.

On the other hand, trade wars are messy. They usually end in detente, not a winner/loser. Although, perhaps that's the point of them.
 

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If you are right, how many more Americans are going to be out of work because a tariff is being put on something we don't even manufacture in this country?
I thought tariffs were to protect our industries, not destroy them.
I read about 63,000 jobs are going under...
 

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I read about 63,000 jobs are going under...
At best, you read that someone estimates this is going to happen. I can't say it won't, but the source would be interesting.

I've heard the climate folks rattling their sabers too. Ironic that the Chinese manufacturing sector is currently the biggest man made source of pollution on earth, but the climate folks are trying to protect the cheap solar made from these less expensive polluting processes.
 

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At best, you read that someone estimates this is going to happen. I can't say it won't, but the source would be interesting.

I've heard the climate folks rattling their sabers too. Ironic that the Chinese manufacturing sector is currently the biggest man made source of pollution on earth, but the climate folks are trying to protect the cheap solar made from these less expensive polluting processes.

Yes you are correct estimates:

Solar Energy Industries Association, warned before the tariffs were announced that such an action would put 48,000 to 63,000 American solar industry workers out of a job this year

Is also all over CNN AND Vox, The Hill, other estimates put it at 88,000
http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/22/news/economy/us-tariff-washing-machines-solar-cells/index.html

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/energy-environment/346528-why-88000-american-jobs-in-solar-energy-are-at-risk

Haven't read Fox News yet but I am sure according to them we will GAIN 1,000,000 new jobs.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/jan/29/punditfact-checks-cable-news-channels/
 

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China has been subsidizing its solar manufacturers unfairly since 2005, allowing Chinese companies to undercut manufacturers in the United States.
I don't care about American jobs. I'm Australian. You guys don't care about American jobs, nor Australian jobs.

I care about Australian jobs.
There's very few manufacturing jobs in Australia as we gave them all to Indonesia, India and China.
We have no political party that wants any of those jobs back.

Factory workers are often lesser educated, lesser skilled and not with the wherewithal to obtain lucrative employment.

Plus the educated mechanical engineers have to leave Australia too. We call this the Brain Drain.

Australia is going to rapidly become a Third World economy because we don't have an economy anymore.

Because we have no jobs.

Because we have no manufacturing.

Because we have useless politicians who never had to have a proper job.
These idiot politicians gave it all away.


Mark
 

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I don't care about American jobs. I'm Australian. You guys don't care about American jobs, nor Australian jobs.

I care about Australian jobs.
There's very few manufacturing jobs in Australia as we gave them all to Indonesia, India and China.
We have no political party that wants any of those jobs back.

Factory workers are often lesser educated, lesser skilled and not with the wherewithal to obtain lucrative employment.

Plus the educated mechanical engineers have to leave Australia too. We call this the Brain Drain.

Australia is going to rapidly become a Third World economy because we don't have an economy anymore.

Because we have no jobs.

Because we have no manufacturing.

Because we have useless politicians who never had to have a proper job.
These idiot politicians gave it all away.


Mark
Yep, you folks just followed the yanks. Any Australian industries left? Did your girlfriend Gina Rinehart go to school in the USA?:laugh
 

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Did your girlfriend Gina Rinehart go to school in the USA?:laugh
Gina went to St Hildas, Perth with my 2 sisters.


Then Sydney Uni. As far as I know she was never educated in the USA.

Rinehart was born in Perth, Western Australia, and spent her early years in the Pilbara. She boarded at St Hilda's Anglican School for Girls and then briefly studied at the University of Sydney, dropping out to work with her father at Hancock Prospecting. As Lang Hancock's only child, Rinehart inherited a 76.6% share in the company upon his death in 1992, and succeeded him as executive chairman. The company's remaining shares were transferred to a trust for her four children.
 

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Actually encouraging conversion of the domestic infrastructure to renewables would create lots more jobs than increasing panel pricing to create a couple local factories.

And reducing our dependence on fossil fuels would be of huge benefit in so many ways.

But I guess that would just make too much sense.
 

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If you are right, how many more Americans are going to be out of work because a tariff is being put on something we don't even manufacture in this country?
I thought tariffs were to protect our industries, not destroy them.
Destroying the solar industry will keep the fossil fuel folks rich...and that's all the folks in charge really care about. Nevermind that fossil fuels are a limited resource. If china wants to lead the way in renewable energy, then I am all for buying their products. Their products keep a ton of US installers employed...but they aren't coal miners in PA or West VA, so they don't matter according to this administration.
 

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Actually encouraging conversion of the domestic infrastructure to renewables would create lots more jobs than increasing panel pricing to create a couple local factories.

And reducing our dependence on fossil fuels would be of huge benefit in so many ways.

But I guess that would just make too much sense.
"Destroying the solar industry will keep the fossil fuel folks rich...and that's all the folks in charge really care about. Nevermind that fossil fuels are a limited resource. If china wants to lead the way in renewable energy, then I am all for buying their products. Their products keep a ton of US installers employed...but they aren't coal miners in PA or West VA, so they don't matter according to this administration."
S/V Artemis has got it right. Have you seen this administration earmark one single penny towards renewable energy? And you probably never will.
 

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One question is whether it was even ethically right to have cheap solar panels on the back of cheap labor in China. Would anyone advocate letting a US manufacturer operate under the same rules (minimum wage, occupational safety, insurance, work hours, benefits, etc) as their Chinese counterpart? How about a European solar manufacturer, which I think is where the best quality is made. If not, I would say advocating for cheap Chinese stuff is hypocritical.
If one finds it hypocritical, or is bothered by it, one would have to give up their cell phone, TV, computer, pretty much all electronics actually since they are full of inexpensive Chinese parts. Along with sheet rock and many metal things. And most things from Walmart.

One would probably have a difficult, if not impossible, time living this way.

Cheap labor isn't wrong, and it is how manufacturing has been done since manufacturing was invented. When the US produced everything they consumed, the labor was slaves, immigrants, poor citizens, and then progressing up the scale over time until it was no longer profitable to use this labor and production moved elsewhere.

People in the US seem to have this very, very short period of time frozen in their minds of the few years that the automobile, steel, textile, and similar industries provided good paying manufacturing jobs in reasonable working conditions. But in the longer view, this is an inaccurate derivative, and not representative of the history of manufacturing in the US.

Having been involved with work in China and India, the pay, working conditions, benefits, safety, etc are generally much better than the workers had before they were employed. It is just the way it is - throughout the history of every country. At some point, it will become unprofitable there, and manufacturing will move where people are poor enough to supply a labor force. Probably Australia...

Doesn't mean it is fair or right - just that the "solution" is for rich people to stop buying stuff completely. At which point, they will become poor enough again to allow manufacturing to move back to their country and employ them at low wages and poor working conditions.

Are you up for buying a $20,000 TV, a $3,000 phone, or a $10,000 laptop to solve this problem?

Mark
 

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I don't care about American jobs. I'm Australian. You guys don't care about American jobs, nor Australian jobs.

I care about Australian jobs.
There's very few manufacturing jobs in Australia as we gave them all to Indonesia, India and China.
We have no political party that wants any of those jobs back.

Factory workers are often lesser educated, lesser skilled and not with the wherewithal to obtain lucrative employment.

Plus the educated mechanical engineers have to leave Australia too. We call this the Brain Drain.

Australia is going to rapidly become a Third World economy because we don't have an economy anymore.

Because we have no jobs.

Because we have no manufacturing.

Because we have useless politicians who never had to have a proper job.
These idiot politicians gave it all away.


Mark
My take on OZ when I was there in the mid 70's was about the same as yours today. Unions sidelining our scallop catches in railway cars to keep the prices high and all kinds of fiddlefaddle with the Communists and uranium.
It appeared that OZ was emulating the very worst of America, with a MacDonald's on every corner, but protecting the Great Barrier Reef was on nobody's agenda.
I was pretty disappointed. OZ had a chance to become a leader in developing a country for it's people, rather than only the rich, by taking only the best ideas from the other nations that had already gone through the growing pains of the modern world.
 
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