SailNet Community banner

261 - 280 of 284 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
919 Posts
The good part about Marxists and idiots is that they self identify. Makes it educational and entertaining to follow postings. The economic education level of most people is still less than elementary, even among the highly educated. Education is sometimes confused with intelligence, try not to be fooled. One positive outcome of the predictions given by some of those who wish to control the subject matter of this forum is that if the United States does become a third world country the refuse of the world may choose to invade Canada illegally instead of the U.S. I am sure that Mike will welcome them though.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,161 Posts
The good part about Marxists and idiots is that they self identify. Makes it educational and entertaining to follow postings. The economic education level of most people is still less than elementary, even among the highly educated. Education is sometimes confused with intelligence, try not to be fooled. One positive outcome of the predictions given by some of those who wish to control the subject matter of this forum is that if the United States does become a third world country the refuse of the world may choose to invade Canada illegally instead of the U.S. I am sure that Mike will welcome them though.....
I'm willing to bet you couldn't accurately define the word Marxist if your life depended on it.

And while we're at it: it's hardly the 'refuse of the world' who immigrate to this country, legally or otherwise. It's people with drive and ambition, who have the courage to leave behind everything they've ever known so they can try to make a better life for themselves and their children. As opposed to those who sit on their butts thinking they're special just because of where they were born, and spend their time resenting and whining about immigrants.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
first I don't care who's in office they all suck. yep every last one of them. life wasn't roses with Obama and it won't be with trump either...

Not too far from me they crush glass yep they make the silicon that goes into the panels, low paid Kelly girls. Have had a few friend work there. They were low paid jobs before china started dumping panels if that's what they are really doing. (if they can make a profit selling a panel for 100.00 and a usa panel can't even be made for that 100.00 is that dumping?)

I'm sure after the 30% isn't going to help the Kelly girls get better pay crushing glass....

in the bigger picture if you have 2 or 3 panels on your boat how much is 30% really costing you? my bet it's much less than a boat buck...

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
And while we're at it: it's hardly the 'refuse of the world' who immigrate to this country, legally or otherwise. It's people with drive and ambition, who have the courage to leave behind everything they've ever known so they can try to make a better life for themselves and their children. As opposed to those who sit on their butts thinking they're special just because of where they were born, and spend their time resenting and whining about immigrants.
Some immigrants do have drive and ambition as you say, but many gain the "courage to leave behind everything they've ever known" not due to having a particularly large amount of drive and ambition but rather mostly because they don't have much to leave behind and it's a well known fact that at least they won't be allowed to starve in the US, and if they do have that drive and ambition they can do quite well. There's nothing wrong with having nothing to leave behind and I don't blame them for wanting to come here and think most of them have what it takes to become productive and law abiding citizens so should be welcomed, but I just wish they'd do it legally so they become full citizens with all the rights and responsibilities of everyone else, just like the vast majority of immigrants have done all throughout our country's history. But it's sort of hard to believe that someone whose first act upon setting foot on American soil is to break our immigration laws is the best the world has to offer to become a law abiding citizen. It's definitely getting off on the wrong foot. Just apply for citizenship and wait your turn and that will go a long way towards making a statement that you are serious about fitting in here and obeying our laws. I don't like people who cut in line at amusement parks, or the grocery store checkout line, or the highway on ramp, or at the fuel dock, or at our border.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
632 Posts
The good part about Marxists and idiots is that they self identify. Makes it educational and entertaining to follow postings. The economic education level of most people is still less than elementary, even among the highly educated. Education is sometimes confused with intelligence, try not to be fooled. One positive outcome of the predictions given by some of those who wish to control the subject matter of this forum is that if the United States does become a third world country the refuse of the world may choose to invade Canada illegally instead of the U.S. I am sure that Mike will welcome them though.....
I've yet to meet anyone who rants about "Marxists" or "socialists" or "liberals" who could correctly define the terms they use to save their lives. A lot of times they even use these totally different concepts interchangeably.

They simply have no concept what they're talking about. They just parrot simplistic talking points with no breadth of knowledge on the topics to base any of it on.

These are usually the same people who downplay the value of education. So what can you do? They knows what they knows and their ain't no fancy liberal book learnin' that's going to change their minds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
632 Posts
Some immigrants do have drive and ambition as you say, but many gain the "courage to leave behind everything they've ever known" not due to having a particularly large amount of drive and ambition but rather mostly because they don't have much to leave behind and it's a well known fact that at least they won't be allowed to starve in the US, and if they do have that drive and ambition they can do quite well. There's nothing wrong with having nothing to leave behind and I don't blame them for wanting to come here and think most of them have what it takes to become productive and law abiding citizens so should be welcomed, but I just wish they'd do it legally so they become full citizens with all the rights and responsibilities of everyone else, just like the vast majority of immigrants have done all throughout our country's history. But it's sort of hard to believe that someone whose first act upon setting foot on American soil is to break our immigration laws is the best the world has to offer to become a law abiding citizen. It's definitely getting off on the wrong foot. Just apply for citizenship and wait your turn and that will go a long way towards making a statement that you are serious about fitting in here and obeying our laws. I don't like people who cut in line at amusement parks, or the grocery store checkout line, or the highway on ramp, or at the fuel dock, or at our border.
It's impractical to expect people to go through proper channels when those channels are intentionally designed to discourage that very thing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
It's impractical to expect people to go through proper channels when those channels are intentionally designed to discourage that very thing.
I agree that government bureaucracy tends to move very slowly and it can be frustrating but the answer in a country of laws isn't to simply ignore the laws that you think the bureaucracy is inefficiently and frustratingly enforcing and do your own thing. Europeans who want to immigrate to the US manage to navigate our immigration process OK, though many of them seem to think it takes an excessively long time (welcome to dealing with US government bureaucracy in general) and are undoubtedly frustrated by having to put up with that. But nevertheless, those who really want to become part of our country persevere and go through the process and become legal immigrants just like many generations who came before have. Are you suggesting that those folks who are illegally crossing our southern borders are less capable or less intelligent than their European counterparts, so they somehow can't make it through the same process that everyone else has?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
632 Posts
Trouble is though that human pressures of wanting a better life for one's family transcend civic regulations. Starving people are going to steal bread. Desperate people are going to jump fences. That's the simple reality of the thing. We tend to have a LOT of tolerance for people ruthlessly striving to their ends, no matter who gets hurt along the way, so long as they are a proper color and have a lot of money. If it were a bunch of Scandinavians flooding into the country (again), we'd be having very different conversations. A lot of people who were previously supporting the government's position on how many and how long it takes would suddenly be saying, Hell with that! Help these people! But, immigration from Scandinavia next to non-existent, and so here we are, talking about building walls. (Because history hasn't repeatedly shown us the folly of that sort of idiocy.)

At some point we have to start thinking in terms of right and wrong, and morality and values, as opposed to simply legal or illegal. And for a nation of immigrants, built by immigrants, made vibrant and successful by immigrants...when you put it terms of those core American values, the choice is pretty clear. We're supposed to be better than building walls. Once upon a time we helped tear them down. And it wasn't even that long ago. We need think more about what makes us who we are, instead of using government to corrupt our national character at the most basic level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,246 Posts
Discussion Starter #270 (Edited)
I agree that government bureaucracy tends to move very slowly and it can be frustrating but the answer in a country of laws isn't to simply ignore the laws that you think the bureaucracy is inefficiently and frustratingly enforcing and do your own thing. Europeans who want to immigrate to the US manage to navigate our immigration process OK, though many of them seem to think it takes an excessively long time (welcome to dealing with US government bureaucracy in general) and are undoubtedly frustrated by having to put up with that. But nevertheless, those who really want to become part of our country persevere and go through the process and become legal immigrants just like many generations who came before have. Are you suggesting that those folks who are illegally crossing our southern borders are less capable or less intelligent than their European counterparts, so they somehow can't make it through the same process that everyone else has?
Why do you assume that Europeans comply with immigration laws at any higher rate than non-Europeans? I dare you to show data to prove that this was not a racist assumption.

The vast majority of undocumented immigrants do not sneak across unguarded boundaries. They come on tourist or student visas, then do illegal work her and/or overstay their visa.

That's exactly what Trump's own wife did. Melania Knaus came to the US on a tourist visa and illegally did a bunch of modeling jobs, which is a direct violation of immigration law. Like everyone else (Europeans, Asians, Latinos, etc.), getting a valid work visa must have been too inconvenient for her. A strict enforcement of the law would lead to her citizenship being revoked and her being deported. But she has fair skin, so White America gives her a pass, but obsesses on those dark skinned people flooding across the border.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
What is the answer then?

no borders?
no laws?
come and go as you please?

right now if you make it in the country, how ever you got here it seems like you are promoting let them stay.

So we decide to change the laws and let them stay, should I pay while they try to get on their feet? How long should that take 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, a lifetime?

Since you are now in the country shouldn't your family be allowed to join you also? Who pays for the plane ticket to get them here?

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,346 Posts
I personally think yes, open borders.

The whole concept of the nation-state, any sort of tribalistic us vs them idea is morally bankrupt and we should be striving to eliminate them ASAP.

There is no reason just being born into a particular citizenship should automatically entitle you to an easier life than the average human elsewhere on this planet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
Why do you assume that Europeans comply with immigration laws at any higher rate than non-Europeans? I dare you to show data to prove that this was not a racist assumption.

The vast majority of undocumented immigrants do not sneak across unguarded boundaries. They come on tourist or student visas, then do illegal work her and/or overstay their visa.

That's exactly what Trump's own wife did. Melania Knaus came to the US on a tourist visa and illegally did a bunch of modeling jobs, which is a direct violation of immigration law. Like everyone else (Europeans, Asians, Latinos, etc.), getting a valid work visa must have been too inconvenient for her. A strict enforcement of the law would lead to her citizenship being revoked and her being deported. But she has fair skin, so White America gives her a pass, but obsesses on those dark skinned people flooding across the border.
I'm familiar with the large number of illegals initially coming here legally and then overstaying their visas but at least we know who they are and when they get caught and deported, it's a lot harder to swim back across the Atlantic than it is to walk back across our southern border. The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans act as a natural wall of sorts so we do have some control regarding who enters or reenters on our east and west coasts. I believe that Europeans often immigrate legally because I see them lining up at JFK airport to be processed and New York City is still a big port of entry for legal immigrants.

PLEASE don't suggest that my opinion is based in racism any more than yours is because I really couldn't care less what color the people are who immigrate here and I also am not sticking up for Melania Trump or anyone else who broke our laws. If you really want to bring racism into this discussion I could argue that the policy you advocate is the more racist one because you seem to want to allow brown people to walk across our southern border unchecked and unprocessed but I don't see you lobbying for white Europeans or black Africans to have that same privilege when they arrive in a ship on our east coast or for Asians when they arrive by ship or plane on our west coast. Why do you believe that brown people walking across our southern border should not be processed and should have this special privilege that all other ethnicities from other continents don't have? That sounds pretty racist to me.

While I don't care what color they are, I DO care that our immigration takes place in a lawful and controlled manner so we know who they are and they become full citizens with full rights and can't be exploited by cheapskate employers and do pay the same taxes as everyone else does and are due the same benefits and obey the same laws and are subject to the same penalties if they don't obey the laws. I'm perfectly happy for my next door neighbor to be any color or follow any religion as long as he/she is here legally and is striving to blend his own cultural heritage into ours and to be a good American and contribute to our society. Every other country has an immigration policy that must be followed and there's nothing immoral about that for them or for us. Our current situation with an open southern border is ridiculous and badly needs to be reformed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
Actually, I though the answer was to buy your solar panels now before prices go up … oh wait, what is this thread about? :devil

I do agree and am sorry for the off topic rant...

to the best of my knowledge(google research) the tariff isn't in effect yet. and when and if it does go into effect will be 30% for the first 3 years then drop down to 15% on the 4th year. But the first 2.5 GW of panels aren't subject to the tariff.

doom and gloom many job losses but US solar stock is up guess they are happy with the tariff.

So in my mind this has very little if any effect on a few panels for a sailboat...

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
Trouble is though that human pressures of wanting a better life for one's family transcend civic regulations. Starving people are going to steal bread. Desperate people are going to jump fences. That's the simple reality of the thing. We tend to have a LOT of tolerance for people ruthlessly striving to their ends, no matter who gets hurt along the way, so long as they are a proper color and have a lot of money. If it were a bunch of Scandinavians flooding into the country (again), we'd be having very different conversations. A lot of people who were previously supporting the government's position on how many and how long it takes would suddenly be saying, Hell with that! Help these people! But, immigration from Scandinavia next to non-existent, and so here we are, talking about building walls. (Because history hasn't repeatedly shown us the folly of that sort of idiocy.)

At some point we have to start thinking in terms of right and wrong, and morality and values, as opposed to simply legal or illegal. And for a nation of immigrants, built by immigrants, made vibrant and successful by immigrants...when you put it terms of those core American values, the choice is pretty clear. We're supposed to be better than building walls. Once upon a time we helped tear them down. And it wasn't even that long ago. We need think more about what makes us who we are, instead of using government to corrupt our national character at the most basic level.
I don't know who these "people" are that you are referring to who want to let in unlimited numbers of Scandinavians but it's not me and I don't know anyone who has advocated for that. And I agree that there should be moral considerations to our immigration policy but it should be a policy that we current US citizens agree on that governs who comes here, rather than a non policy that allows certain people to walk across our southern border while the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans act as fences on our east and west borders to keep others out. We need to collectively decide what's moral and then make that legal, those two concepts need to be in agreement. I'm not against immigration am fully aware of the contributions that immigrants have made and will continue to make to our country, but just as they did all throughout our history until recently, they need to come here and immigrate legally rather than sneaking across the border or overstaying a temporary visa and then expecting to be allowed to stay indefinitely. If they want to stay here indefinitely they need to say so and follow the same process that everyone else who wants to immigrate here does.

Our current policy, though well intended I'm sure, has created a large underclass that lives in the shadows, and is subject to being exploited for cheap labor, don't have all the privileges that full citizens do, and also aren't subject to all of the laws that citizens are. Every other country controls who immigrates and so should we. There's nothing immoral about it and I would argue for the reasons I listed just above that what we have recently been doing is very immoral. We need to control our borders and we need to reform our policy to allow more immigrants to come here LEGALLY (and morally)!
 

·
Old soul
Joined
·
4,498 Posts
I do agree and am sorry for the off topic rant...

to the best of my knowledge(google research) the tariff isn't in effect yet. and when and if it does go into effect will be 30% for the first 3 years then drop down to 15% on the 4th year. But the first 2.5 GW of panels aren't subject to the tariff.

doom and gloom many job losses but US solar stock is up guess they are happy with the tariff.

So in my mind this has very little if any effect on a few panels for a sailboat...

Bob
Cool. Thanks Bob. Actual facts and info!

I missed reading here that it only kicks in after importing the first 2.5 GW. That’s a lot of watts for our little boats. But wouldn’t it still affect the importers who then sell to the retailers who then sell to us? Not sure how this supply chain works, but you’d think the consumer is still going to get stuck with the cost increase eventually.

I hope this does inspire American production. Personally I would much rather buy as local as possible. If I can’t source something (at a reasonable cost) from Canada, then my next go-to is always the USA.

Call me parochial I suppose, but as I like getting stuff from close by. Keep the money close, I say.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
Cool. Thanks Bob. Actual facts and info!

I missed reading here that it only kicks in after importing the first 2.5 GW. That’s a lot of watts for our little boats. But wouldn’t it still affect the importers who then sell to the retailers who then sell to us? Not sure how this supply chain works, but you’d think the consumer is still going to get stuck with the cost increase eventually.

I hope this does inspire American production. Personally I would much rather buy as local as possible. If I can’t source something (at a reasonable cost) from Canada, then my next go-to is always the USA.

Call me parochial I suppose, but as I like getting stuff from close by. Keep the money close, I say.
Mike back when I was a UPS little brown truck driver, I delivered to Frankenmuth mi. That town is a small tourist town here in Michigan people from around the world have heard of and visited Bronner's Christmas store. Side note I used to shoot with one of the son's who runs the show now that his dad is gone. Anyways in that town buying local isn't just a saying.... For a couple of Christmas's the guy that would help me lived in town and had a landscape company but even though he lived in town he was on the wrong side of the corner and his address was the neighboring town... He couldn't get jobs in town because of this.... He finally rented a space in town just for the mailing address and sure enough his business took off...

I do buy local when it makes sense, but let's say I'm buying a solar panel in the town where I keep my boat(3 hours north of my home), first no one has any panels in stock. Ok no big deal, next choice is to go to a marina and have them order me a panel, what do you want to bet I'm going to pay a premium for that panel. Well I could keep it in state the closest place I know that has panels is a 4 hour car ride away and I got to take the truck so 100.00 in gas each way... Well last is the interwebs. Amazon, ebay and a like place the order and 2 days later it show's up at the boat club.

There is a place about 3 miles from my house that has panels and it will be where I'm going to get one more panel from about 20-30% higher than online but I'm planning on buying it there anyways. But before I buy it I want to measure to make sure I have enough room on the arch for it. So if a planned return trip isn't is the near future I will just order it online...

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,161 Posts
I'm not against immigration am fully aware of the contributions that immigrants have made and will continue to make to our country, but just as they did all throughout our history until recently, they need to come here and immigrate legally rather than sneaking across the border or overstaying a temporary visa and then expecting to be allowed to stay indefinitely. If they want to stay here indefinitely they need to say so and follow the same process that everyone else who wants to immigrate here does.
It's the laws that have changed, not the immigrants. IMHO, Mexicans or Salvadoreans walking across the desert are no more immoral or criminal than the Italians, Poles and others who came by ship a few generations ago... and the reality is that if they could get in legally, they'd save their walking shoes.

The following article is from 2011, so the numbers might not be precisely accurate anymore. But the point it makes is still valid:
Many of the complaints about illegal immigration in Alabama center on the unwillingness of millions of immigrants to obey U.S. rules and imigrate legally.

But for those aspiring to live and work in America, especially for families in Mexico, it's not a simple matter of waiting for the proper forms. Even for those with family here, it can take decades and may be near impossible to secure the paperwork to enter the United States legally.

Last year 1.38 million Mexican citizens were waiting in line for a United States work visa or an immigration visa through a family member. But there were only 26,000 visas made available for Mexico last year.

Even the applications now being processed for extended family, such as the Mexico-born adult children or the siblings of now-U.S. citizens date back to late 1992 and early 1993. In other words, the waiting period to legally immigrate to the U.S. through a family member who has become a citizen is now 18 years.

1.4 million Mexicans waiting to legally immigrate into U.S., only 65,600 were allowed in | AL.com
1.34 million people waiting in line for 26,000 visas? That's more than fifty applicants for each visa. Under the circumstances, I can't say I really blame those who take matters into their own hands.

I was reading last week about a guy who came here with his parents when he was ten years old. He's been here thirty years; his wife and children are US citizens; he's never had so much as a traffic ticket; he's been trying for years to legalize his status - and ICE just deported him. I think it would be small consolation to tell him that he should've followed the rules and come here legally... especially since his efforts to become legal are what brought him to their attention.

I understand the importance of laws and proper procedure. But there's also such a thing as compassion and common sense, and ICE seems to have abandoned those since Trump turned them loose.
 
261 - 280 of 284 Posts
Top