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Discussion Starter #1
Maybe too great. Had a survey done today on a CS 36T. Structurally the boat is in very good shape, but lots of niggling and not so niggling things, a few of which must be taken care of and a longer list of stuff that should be taken care of. Mostly I was disappointed by auto-grade wiring terminals, strange plumbing and rat's nest arrangement of stuff in lockers, behind panels, etc. Lots of enthusiasm and creativity I suppose, but not necessarily appropriate for marine use, and if you didn't put it in poor you that has to figger the stuff
out. Even the surveyor was left scratching his head a few times.

Anyway, the surveyor figures it would take about ten grand to update stuff, and the boat is already on the high side of the price range for these models, (in part because of structural/mechanical upgrades done). Does that seem reasonable? Is there a general rule of thumb regarding what you should be looking at in costs AFTER you buy a used sailboat?

Honestly, I feel a little let down. Although it's necessary, taking apart a sailboat like this is like the difference between meeting a gorgeous woman on a smoky dance floor and seeing her the next morning under bright fluorescent lights.:eek:
 

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Owner, Green Bay Packers
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What stuff needs to be updated?
 

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Honestly, I feel a little let down. Although it's necessary, taking apart a sailboat like this is like the difference between meeting a gorgeous woman on a smoky dance floor and seeing her the next morning under bright fluorescent lights.
Ya... Except, the boat you can make look gorgeous again with cash!

Not so much so with the woman :(

... Check out what this guy did with a totaly ran down Cat 27

http://www.semyan.com/GataLuna/repair.htm

I think any used boat you buy you'll have to do at least some work to get her to feel just right to you and be confident in it.

Most women come used anyway... They too, just need a little TLC to shine :)

Kacper
 

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Wandering Aimlessly
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10% of purchase price is rule of thumb, but I would expect 20% is more likely based on my experiences. Now is the time you make the post survey offer, so make one that reflects what you found.
 

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Telstar 28
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What'd you expect?

HoffaLives said:
Maybe too great. Had a survey done today on a CS 36T. Structurally the boat is in very good shape, but lots of niggling and not so niggling things, a few of which must be taken care of and a longer list of stuff that should be taken care of. Mostly I was disappointed by auto-grade wiring terminals, strange plumbing and rat's nest arrangement of stuff in lockers, behind panels, etc. Lots of enthusiasm and creativity I suppose, but not necessarily appropriate for marine use, and if you didn't put it in poor you that has to figger the stuff
out. Even the surveyor was left scratching his head a few times.

Anyway, the surveyor figures it would take about ten grand to update stuff, and the boat is already on the high side of the price range for these models, (in part because of structural/mechanical upgrades done). Does that seem reasonable? Is there a general rule of thumb regarding what you should be looking at in costs AFTER you buy a used sailboat?

Honestly, I feel a little let down. Although it's necessary, taking apart a sailboat like this is like the difference between meeting a gorgeous woman on a smoky dance floor and seeing her the next morning under bright fluorescent lights.
Generally, I recommend saving at least 15-20% of the purchase budget for doing upgrades, repairs and modifying the boat. This is true of almost any boat I've seen, new or used.

The strange plumbing, rat's nest of stuff in the lockers, and auto-grade wiring terminals are par for the course. If the updating is worth $10,000 then knock about half that off your offer... as I doubt you'll get the full 10K.

You don't say how old the sailboat is... and I'm guessing that it is probably 15+ years old. A lot can happen in that much time. If the deck, hull, rigging and engine are solid, then anything else can be dealt with fairly reasonably.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
A 1980 CS36 Traditional. All the electronics are old - backstay mount radar, old RV style 1000w inverter, battery monitor not working right, three old (two antique) depth sounders, ancient VHF, one autohelm not working. Letrasan MSD not working and no holding tank. Original knotmeter and log not working. 8 through hull valves replaced with industrial plastic ones (yikes). Backstay original and needing replacement. Rat's nest plumbing in galley and head, leaking Y valve in head, solar panel wiring corroded, one panel has a corroded spot internally, muffler shot. salt water pumps not working in galley or head. Wiring "suspicious". Need to rebed chainplates, no tender, running rigging a bit tired.

On the plus side, bottom and rudder has recently been epoxied, new propane salon heater, recent oversize standing rigging, windlass with spare motor, B&G below deck autopilot, decent sails 4 or 5 years old, maxprop, new refrigeration system, engine driven salon heater, recent full canvas cockpit enclosure, new cockpit cushions, 3 solar panels, hydraulic backstay adjuster, lots of new spare parts, new dripless shaft seal, tranny recently rebuilt. 3000 hours on engine, which runs and starts very well. (Vendor has spare rebuilt but I said no thanks -who packs around a spare engine? Where would I keep it?). Deck and hull sounded out okay. New salon sole. 4 new 6 volt very good quality golf cart batteries.

We still haven't had the mechanic go over the engine yet. Vendor is asking $90,000 on west coast (BC)
 

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Wandering Aimlessly
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Electronics are something that can't really be part of the price, especially, old and/or inoperative ones. Thru-hulls, muffler, bad plumbing, the chainplates, are things that should be included though. In other words, anything that has to do with the actual operation of the boat, minus the electronics.

If the price is reflective of all the things you have mentioned being operative, then you should discount the price accordingly. If the price reflects "as is", then I think it's too high.

This is though, just my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The price on yachtworld is incorrect. I'm going in at 90, and all the rest are asking 89. They are not as well equipped, and they will show their own flaws when surveyed, I'm sure. The one in Sidney seems more comparable to the one I'm working on, and maybe someone will get it for 85. The broker Paul Shield has an excellent reputation in the west coast cs community, and seems to be a straight shooter (he's one of those rare brokers who doesn't come across like slimy used car salesmen). He tells me the lowest price he has ever sold one for is 76 grand. He does agree that the price has to be adjusted to reflect the survey, or have the vendor take care of the things that are really important like the thru-hull valves.
 

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Hitchin' a ride
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Hoffa - Saw your post on CSOA. I was the one that posted recently about buying the CS34, and ended up having to fix a lot of things(headliner crack). Mine was in what appeared to be great condition, but I am still sinking lots of money and time into it to fix things that went unnoticed. And while I am fixing things, other things are breaking. The CS is a great boat, don't get me wrong, but take what you see that needs to be fixed and double the amount in reality. If you have reservations about buying it, don't. There are too many other boats out there. But it is your time and money and I don't know how much you have of either to put in. My boat spoke to me and said, "if you pass me up, you will regret it".
Best
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Again, I'm just not sure if my expectations are too high for a 27-year-old boat. The CS 36T seem more expensive on the west coast compared to the great lakes, and not many of them come up for sale. I've been looking and comparing for three years and I've seen a lot of sailboats. In terms of all the compromises, this is the model that seems the best for my needs so then I'm just comparing the pros and cons of the three that are currently for sale out here. I sure don't want to survey all three of them to find out which one has fewer hidden issues.
 

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Hoffa, if you are edgy about the purchase sit down with yourself and what you know already. Honestly come up with a price that YOU could justify buying the boat at. A broker saying the lowest amount he's ever sold one at yadda yadda doesn't mean anything in YOUR purchase. If there is a price that you would feel cozy about buying the boat at, that's your offer. You can (and should) walk away if it's not met.

One of the key things about sales, whether buying or selling, is knowing what you have, and where you stand. Arguably, the most effective way of finding out where you stand is to take the sale away from, in this case, the seller by walking away from an unmet offer. It's the seller who is going to decide whether he wants to sell it to you at your price, not the broker.
Accordingly, the seller (now it's the broker cause that's all you'll talk to) can do the same thing by saying things like 'the lowest I've, etc etc'. It's a way to test the resolve of the parties ability to buy or sell.

Try to keep your emotions out of the game as salesmen are very adept at using them against you, not in a mean and nasty way, in a closing the sale way.

One favorite of mine is simply to say it the way it is 'this is what I can justify spending for this boat, if the seller can't agree I can understand and I'll just have to keep on looking. Sincerity is the key, once ya learn to fake it, yer home free (that's a lyric from a song I like). If you say something like I've quoted above, you've taken control of the sale. Now it's up to the other party to sweat your resolve. Usually it will be by making a counter offer back to you. Even if they have come more than 1/2 way from where you were to your current offer, stay the course and walk away. The phone may just ring in a day or two. You can leave the deal behind you or get the deal YOU want.

Don
 

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Now you can go look at the others with a more educated eye and the first survey in hand/mind. If she still compares favourably then go from there. These are good boats, they hold their value well but it is nearly 30 yrs old and some upgrading is not unreasonable to expect. As many have said here before, don't blow the budget in that first cheque!

It's that good rep and relative rarity that will serve you well, too, when you go to resell.
 

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If you're not comfortable at buying the boat at a given price... walk away from the boat and look at another.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
That's the thing, what is the boat "worth" not what I want to pay for it. What is the market? I've seen a lot of floating turds for more than I'm offering here, and I've seen some very nice boats for less. In some ways the market makes no sense, like the fact that CS boats are more expensive on the west coast than inland and yet you get less selection.

As an example, I think westsail 32s are very underpriced while hunters are equally overpriced. I personally don't think a CS36 is worth twice that of a westsail 32, but the market says so, so that's what I pay.

It is a difficult process, this yacht buying thing. Much more difficult than buying a house or car. Not only is there the constant compromise thing, but there are so many models, each designed for different things, they are found in wildly differing conditions, some of which only comes to light when you blow 1200.00 on a haul-out or survey. And in the end you could still end up with gilded poo. A liveaboard boat has to be house, car, international jet, lifesaver, life risker, entertainment centre, answer to one's lifelong dreams yet be a balm to the wife's natural caution and fears, stable yet nimble, seaworthy yet comfortable, well built but affordable, attractive yet practical, well maintained, reasonably priced, and not be sold by an idiot.

And despite all this we have to make a rational, reasoned judgment when it comes to putting the cash on the barrel head. And to further muddy the waters, answers to most of the above are subject to hearsay, random opinion and furious argument. After all the steps we have gone through to get this far, I'm still scratching my head and saying what the hell? I just wanted to buy a sailboat :rolleyes:

A part of me just wants to jump in my VW bus and head to Mexico.:cool:
 

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Boat prices are highly subjective, very variable and depend on lots of different factors. The real question you should be asking isn't what is the boat worth... but what is the boat worth to you.

If you feel you are paying too much for the boat... don't buy it.

Likewise, if you don't love the boat, or think it is beautiful.... don't buy it.


As Malcolm Reynolds would say (slightly edited):

"You know what the first rule of sailin' is? … Love.

You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but you take a boat to the sea that you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her floating when she oughtta sink… tells ya she's hurtin' before she keels… makes her a home."
 

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HoffaLives said:
A part of me just wants to jump in my VW bus and head to Mexico.:cool:
Pick me up on the way, first round of tequila is on me.:cool:
 

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HoffaLives said:
A part of me just wants to jump in my VW bus and head to Mexico.:cool:
That won't get you back on the water... ;)
 

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'The market' goes like this.... something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In this case that someone is you.

Don
 

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Fair Market Value (price) = What a willing Buyer will pay a willing Seller.

Thats what it boils down to.

If there is a gap in the formula it is time to walk to the next Borker.

I remember some advice about buying used cars (or boats) that I was
given many years ago -

Something like "If the salesman (Broker) will let you walk out the door
and off the lot - You HAVE reached the bottom price" Until that happens
It is just haggling -

Just offer what it is worth to you to buy the boat - and tell him to give
the offer to the owner. (kinda like saying - Do your Job and shut up)

Just my .02 (USD)

Good Luck
 
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