[Caille]

Hans Christian 39 Pilothouse; Rebuild/Replace old engine versus Repower with New

First off let me preface this by saying this not your ordinary boat buy, well perhaps it was. We fell in love with what she could be, not what she was.

Her hull is gorgeous, and one of four still water worthy of the 9 made.

When we got her however she was someone else's project vessel they had thrown in the towel on. She is now our dream manifested.

Our old engine is a Yanmar 3qm30H with the Kanzaki KH18.

It is dead. Doornail dead. Needs to be rebuilt or replace dead. On top of that we are already going to be redoing the following due to her condition.

-electrical
-exhaust
-fuel
-water

Our options are as follows.

1. Buy a rebuilt engine from Schooner Bay Imported Motors in WI, have it shipped out and installed or install it. The Rebuilt is $4200+core (fee or engine our call).

Pros- This engine requires no new stringers.

Fits existing mounts. Was what the boat was built with.

Much less $$$

Cons- Very hard to get parts for if something does fail.

Leave the very large boat still slightly under modern power safety
suggestions (though we care not for motor sailing and would rather
become better sailors).

No solid review information about Schooner Bay to be found. What
can be found is mixed, at best.

1a. Have Mack Boring rebuild our current block and get a rebuild Kanzaki from a guy known to be the best in the business.

Pros/Cons- The same, excepting we may spend a little more.

2. Repower with a Yanmar 75hp. This engine will cost us about $11-12,000. In addition this will not fit the current stringers. We tried that last year and it was a 6 month debacle costing us more than stringer work would have to have the repower marine specialists try and fail for 6 months to do so with every configuration they could muster. Stringers are a must.

Pros- Brand New

Easy to source parts for

No longer slightly underpowered

Cons- Engine is easily twice as much (that is kitty money or money for
other systems it is eating)

Stringer work is another 6,000 to 10,000 dollars based on our
current estimates

Possibly more power than we truly need, since modern suggestions
assume motor sailing

Some other things about this boat.

She is heavy. About 30k with all her original gear on her but without people or food or water.

She is large. 38 feet LOA, 33 feet LWL, with bowsprit/pulpit and pushpit on her we come in just a hair under 50' (49'11") with a 6 foot draft.

The repower specialist we are using in Everett Washington considers her underpowered to the point they are afraid for our safety under 33hp should we encounter adverse conditions.

I need some help on this one as I am not knowledgeable enough to make this call without professional advise.

I could theoretically afford the repower. It would put my kitty back a good chunk and that money could do many of the other systems I need to do.

I know, falling in love with a hull is a lot of work. And she is an odd one.

But We love her to death and she is the most beautiful thing in the work yard. People come over form their boats just to ask us about her and most realize ho rare she is.

We could not be happier with the choice, we just want to do right by her and ourselves. We are not wealthy by any means but are at least able to do what needs to be done.

Caille

 

[deniseO30]

Since you make no mention of sails or sailing. I'd say go for the new engine..

I will also say something doesn't "add" up; How much for "stringers"?? Yikes!

The old Yanmar. "dead"? What does that mean? It's a Yanmar! even the old ones are highly desirable.

I'm far from a HP expert but a 30 HP diesel pushing a 39ft doublender Is probably NOT terribly "you will die" under powered.

Do you actually own this boat and has it been surveyed?

Photos would do allot for answering the questions you need answered. Or is it so bad you don't want it seen?

 

[Caille]

I should say that the sails and rigging are fine according to out rigger and have quotes about sailing in there...we actually would prefer to be better sailors than motor sail. We are headed out for long term cruising across the Pacific. Seattle->SF->Hawaii->Round the High->Back to Cali->Down to SA and Peru->Galapagos->Hawaii Again->India; is our rough plan.

Quotes from above...
"Leave the very large boat still slightly under modern power safety
suggestions (though we care not for motor sailing and would rather
become better sailors)."

"Possibly more power than we truly need, since modern suggestions
assume motor sailing." Following the we care not for motor sailing.


The current engine is basically toast. It would need to be rebuilt completely. We have had it looked at by Two Yanmar Dealer marine engine shops. We would have to get a rebuilt transmission and engine (the Kanzaki KH18 transmission is relatively hard to find), we could get one from Schooner Bay as mentioned, or we could get the Transmission from the best guy in the biz ($3500 for the rebuilt tranny alone, much more expensive than Al Holzref at Schooner who has Engine and Tranny for $4200) and then send our block in Mack Boring and have them do a rebuild.

This as mentioned in 1a, would be a bit more costly than buying a rebuilt, but would be potentially more sound.

We already own her. We were not super responsible boat buyers instead buying what we loved rather than looking for a perfect survey. She is sound where we wanted her sound. In the hull/main body. We also managed to squeeze in owner financing, and have a Coast Guard Mortgage on her with the previous owner carrying.

She was someone else's project boat when we bought her. She is lovely and she is what we have to work with, but as I said I want to do right by her and ourselves.

The power suggestion comes off the modern programs where you plug in the displacement, size, etc and it spits out a suggestion. We are suggested for no less than 55HP. The 54 HP Yanmar footprint is very different and too wide for our bilge so we have been suggested the 75. Also all 3 of the remaining 39PHs besides ours have gone to that very motor.


Caille

 

[Caille]

Oh and stringer quotes have been 6k, "no less than 8k" and "no more than 10k". That is 3 quotes form 3 different guys.

All say it is due to the labor intense nature of removing the old ones and replacing them, a lot of hours of glasswork.

Caille

 

[deniseO30]

Callie I don't mean to sound insensitive. But reading your other posts it seems you are easy to get big bucks from. Are you in a partnership on this project? (going by the names and posts)

I'm shocked what it cost you to ship this boat also!

Sincerely.. find a contractor type and pay them a fee to manage this project, it's costing you allot and I'm guessing way more then then it should.

Stringers for engines are not usually a big problem, But again, without photos no one here will be able to help very much.

 

[deniseO30]

too much mystery .. good luck.

 

[Caille]

The trucking company in question in my other thread did indeed have a hydralulic truck. What I think people are not getting is we were blocked in by other boats that could not be moved. No one could get to her. Not even if we have a mobile lift could we have gotten to her. And the truck had no way to get anywhere near her.

To get her out of the yard we HAD TO come over a back fence of the yard with a crane to get her out. And yes the crane company had us sign a waiver waiving their responsibility in any damages.

That was simply because the owner of the yard had no lift, would not get one, and would not answer calls at all regarding removing boats from his yard. The yard she was in had blocked in other boats and had no travel lift any longer so could not get the other boats out of the way for the trucker.

We tried every option before paying a construction crane company to pick her out. And we called EVERY crane company in the area.

That said, I am going to continue to get different quotes to see what I cannot come up with. I have no interest in paying someone to do phone work, and talk to people for me. They very idea is rather...yuck.

If I am going to own her for life I need to learn to find the right deals in the boating world. Any less would be doing a disservice to my future. Having someone else do it is a crutch I will not have on the seas with me later.

Caille.

 

[Caille]

Mystery? What are pictures of an empty bilge going to do for you, if I may ask?

My bilge is a big empty bilge with no tanks etc in the way and the engine sits directly in the bilge rather an an engine compartment/room.

Pictures of an engine taken apart and on a pallet? It looks like a dead engine with a rope tied to it for moving it when it was removed.

The general end result of the info I can give you is the 75hp will not go onto my current stringers, even with an aqua drive extension, it won't angle to meet my shaft (which is straight, not angled) even with the lowest drop center transmission that will fit it. Harbor Marine in Everett tried for months to force one to work last year and could not under any configuration.

To get it in they have to move it forward a couple of inches and lower it. Which requires what has only been dubbed to me "extensive" stringer work. Meaning mine have to be cut out and new ones made and glassed in.

I am failing to see what a picture is going to do in this case. I have given enough information I would think for someone to be able to give their two cents on it. If you can illuminate why I need to take pictures of my empty bilge and existing stringers I will. But for now they seem superfluous to the question at hand which is in regards to Power/Value/Ease of installation.


Caille

 

[Caille]

A very polite Captain just asked a question I think clear this reason for pic requests up.

Yes the existing stringers will hold the new engine.

Yes the existing stringers will support the new power.

Yes the shaft will take the new prop.

The problem lies in coupling the transmission to the shaft. The old engine was very very tall, with a very large drop. And though a new engine will fit on the stringers, (we have had the very 75hp in there already last year) it would not couple to the shaft with the transmissions it can take from the stringers as they are.

A hydraulic extension was considered but does not accommodate 75hp, maxing at 65.

An aqua drive flexible extension was tried but again to no avail.

They have to redo the stringers to get the transmission lower so they can couple it to the shaft.


Caille.

 

[RichH]

I may be mistaken but the 'stringers' upon which the mounting assemblies for such type of boats usually have fabricated steel auxiliary plates (Z shaped) which allow for the replacement of such weldment/fabrication upon which the 'motor mounts' connect to and with no need to replace or re-glass the 'stringers' if indeed the width of a replacement engine will 'fit'.

Got some pics of your 'mounts' that you can upload?

 

[Caille]

I will take some tomorrow when I am down at her working.

The stringers for our boat are all glassed in. No plates can be seen to change heights.

Our stringers look like two fiberglass humps with holes in them to affix the engine mounting brackets.

Again this is not a width issue. It is solely a height issue that is preventing the transmission on the 75hp from meeting my shaft.

This is where replacing the original shines, no need to deal with this.


Caille

 

[Capt Len]

I used a hurth 630 gear to obtain needed alignment to shaft.A bit over kill maybe but needed to clear oil pan . Work for you?

 

[Capt Len]

I used a Hurth 630 gear to obtain alignment .work for you?With proper brackets the mounts can be higher than the engine if need be.

 

[deniseO30]

Callie, you probably don't realize the collective expertise that's available here on Sailnet.

There are some very well known and respected naval architects, boat design specialists, Builders, Mechanical systems experts, HVAC Electricial. Rigging, Experts in just about anything pertaining to any boat. laying a tape measure out and taking photos of things can get you lots of expert help and possibly save you many thousands. I just went through 6 mails to a tractor parts co. in MI. but a photo of the engine water pump turned the key. got the new one.. perfect fit!

Plus we all love looking at pictures! My projects are full of photos here on SN and I've received lots of help too.

Engine beds and repower projects are not rocket science. It's all quite DIY friendly actually. One gentleman here replaced the shaft log to match the new engine angle rather then change the "stringers"

I've studied boat design all my life. Mostly wooden boats. Only built small boats with my son. but My dreams were larger then yours. Funds and dreams have a way of limiting each other...

 

[deniseO30]

re Capt Len,

 

[Caille]

Thank you all for your replies.

Sorry Denise, if I came off defensive I am just not one to relegate thinking to someone else. I know the move sounded nightmarish, that is because everything that could go wrong did. In the end it taught me that you need to over plan your finances by a good margin.

With the stringers, I am not afraid of fiberglass work. I have worked in prop replicas for more than 10 years and my main medium is glass. Much of my work can be seen at major conventions on the bodies of Vaders, Boba Fetts and other costumers. However, what I am concerned with is doing it correctly and am willing to defer to professionals if need be to ensure seaworthiness.

I will take pictures tomorrow.

What pictures?, I will take tomorrow, the following,

Pics of the bilge and stringers.

Pics of the shaft exit to explain why changing angles is not easily possible.

Pics of the engine old and dead. Pics of the transmission the same.

Using a tape measure I will show in my pictures why the engine won't fit under the stringers. Too narrow in between them so it can sit on them but won't slip in between to use over top brackets.

I will also be speaking to the shop I am using to ask about the gearbox mentioned.

I am guessing they did not look at such oversized boxes, instead staying in the "normal average" range. 75 is the minimum for the 630. Further I am going to ask them about the hydraulic shaft drive perhaps on the 54 hp Yanmar. As that would still be less than stringers and still a significant increase in power.

Until tomorrow evening then when I get back form a days work on her.

It seems everyone is trying to help get the "newer" motor in. I am not hearing much call to use the old engine. My main question was Newer Motor Vs Original, and it seems that the general opinion leans on figuring out how to make the newer one work.

Cheers,
Caille

 

[deniseO30]

I'm still looking for the layout and dimensioned drawings from the owners site. Hans Christian Owners Association (HCOA)
It's a rare bird. but I'm guessing it's hull isn't.

The old engine can be made as new. question is, what about it is bad? locked up, rusted from immersion? "it's bad" is not a very professional answer if that is all you were told.

Stringers are just the fiberglass equivalent to old white oak timbers used for ages.. even when boats had steam engines. I'd be surprised if your stringers are not built up plywood with glass covering it.

 

[kentobin]

New engine especially if you're planning on traveling to areas with minimal support facilities.

If you think you'll be motoring extensively that engine is under powered for your boat especially if sailing through a chop and headwind. Some sailors would say your 30hp engine is big enough as it's only an auxillary and that's why you have sails but not all of us have the same sailing skills or maybe you just prefer to motor.

There are so many items that can be over looked in a rebuild, even by a reputable dealer, that I'd be hesitant to use one unless that's all you can afford or a repower is feasible in the future before you leave for sites unknown.

Decisions, decisions.

 

[BobbyBrown]

Sounds like you need an engineer who can figure this out. The guy who took out the soft metal engine bed on my boat replaced it with white oak glassed in stringers. He went to engineering school. He also moved the Yanmar forward 4" to push a little of the weight towards center. The PO had the engine installed in Canada by a reputable yard that charged him 20K. They modified the existing bed by wielding 2 new mounting brackets in the rear on an angle to lower the engine. This set up broke 4 motor mounts in 750 hours. Take your time and do it right.

 

[deniseO30]

Raw horsepower does not mean a faster boat in the case of displacement hulls. Determine theoretical hull speed, then consider the type of motoring to be done. Should give you a more realistic number. "Someone" felt 30ish HP was right for the boat. 30 to 75? That's allot!

The engine bed is too high for the monster engine someone has convinced you into needing. There is, a very good chance the old engine bed is rotted inside the glass anyway.
I don't see a big problem. I see the tops of the rails being cut down and new glass laid on with epoxy Yielding stronger then the original again.. not rocket science.
maybe Charlie http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/charliecobra.html could chime in here he's saved many boats and very comfortable with the things pertaining your restoration.

I found a post of yours on this HC39 blog site
http://dorado9.wordpress.com/

Someone has done the Yanmar 75 install and offered help!

Heather Doriy

Alright!

So I'm looking at this re-power thing again, but I need help.

I want to put in the 75 hp Yanmar, but can't find a way to make the 13in-18in drop to the shaft. I've looked at EVERY transmission I can find.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE could someone through me line on this?

June 9, 2014 at 10:58 am

Reply
Joe Semon

I repowered using a 75 hp Yanmar. I used a 3:1 ZF gearbox. I reused the existing prop and shaft, only had to narrow the engine bed 2″ and lengthen it back. I have photos if you wish to see.

June 9, 2014 at 11:24 am

...................
Shame you aren't local to me I'd be in there with a sawzall myself! LOL I love this kind of stuff!