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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Admiral and a friend went out for a bit of shopping, yesterday, and I decided I needed an antidote for five nights of Christmas movies, none of which included such Christmas classics as Die Hard or Lethal Weapon, by way of a good shoot-'em-up. In this case: Under Siege. At one point Our Hero seizes upon the opportunity to drop a length of I-beam on a bad guy, so he reaches over to where the line suspending it from a block is hitched to a railing, gives the end a good yank and... waitaminute: What's that knot? That looks useful. Pause. Rewind. Forward in slow-motion. Pause. Rewind in slow motion. Pause. Damn! Missed the frame! Forward in slow-motion. Why doesn't this [email protected]$!!$! DVD player have frame-by-frame?. Rewind in slow motion... Got part of it! And so-on, for I-don't-know-how-long.

I think I finally got it. Hard to say, working with a completely different kind of rope. But I've got a slipped hitch that appears to hold, and that releases just like in the movie.

I wonder what it is? It's not in any of my books. I wasn't able to find any reference to "the knot seen in Under Siege." Anybody know?

Jim
 

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I think I know what you're talking about

I think I've seen that knot in a book. It's a way of tying a line (half of it anyway to an object, rapelling down the GOOD half and then jerking on the other half to release the line and it all comes down.
JUST BE CERTAIN YOU PUT YOUR WEIGHT ON THE CORRECT PIECE OF LINE!:eek:

I don't have a picture handy but IIRC you start w/ a loop in the middle of your line, take it over the bar or whatever you're tying off to and then take a couple of successive bights to put tension on the line. I can't describe it but it works. (I've never had the B---s to actually rappel down said line)
 

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Didn't see the movie. It seems you went through a lot of frustration instead of relaxing and enjoying the movie.
 

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Check with the Ashley Book of Knots. The slip knot/hitch should be in there for you to to gander and and learn to tie.
Then learn the chain hitch that is used on the cod end of nets. One pull and the Cod End opens like a zipper. :D
 

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I looked at the seen a couple of times and me thinks it is edited and that is why it is not clear.
 

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Try looking up a "slip clove hitch". We use it to secure fender lines to railings and lifelines. It is easy to tie, easy to untie, and pretty strong. Be careful using stiff, slippery, or polypro line. Make sure to leave a long bight in the slip part. Have fun!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think I've seen that knot in a book. It's a way of tying a line (half of it anyway to an object, rapelling down the GOOD half and then jerking on the other half to release the line and it all comes down.
It looks like it'd work for that. I put my short piece of heavy sprinkler line I use to simulate a railing, or whatever, between my feet, pulled on the standing end as hard as I could with both hands, and had The Admiral release it. She had to give the end a couple of pretty hard yanks, but it came free.

JUST BE CERTAIN YOU PUT YOUR WEIGHT ON THE CORRECT PIECE OF LINE!:eek:
Well, yeah :). When this thing comes free, there's nothing wrapped around anything.

I don't have a picture handy but IIRC you start w/ a loop in the middle of your line, take it over the bar or whatever you're tying off to and then take a couple of successive bights to put tension on the line.
I'll try to describe it. Form a clockwise overhand loop where you want the hitch, with the working end to the inside. Grab the bottom of the loop, bring it under the the rail (or whatever it is to which you want to secure it), away from you, and up under the top half of the loop. Take the bight thus formed, bring it up along the standing part and take an anti-clockwise turn around the standing part. Make a bight in the w'end and pass it through that bight. Let the standing part take the load until everything is snugged-down. I can do it quite quickly, now.

I've tested it by hand, as well as I'm able, loading and unloading it, and it appears quite secure. Once it's tightened-up, it gets to a certain point and doesn't appear to be inclined to move any more. Even under as much load as I was able to put on it by hand, it can still be released.

The rope I've been testing this with I think is Sta Set. It's pretty slippery. (It was a 5' long piece of 5/16" that was just hanging-out at the local WM that I bought for practicing knots.)

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Didn't see the movie.
It's a fun movie. One of Segal's last before he let himself go to pot and got all enviro-preachy. (But we'll save the discussion of Segal and his movies for OT, if anybody's so-inclined.)

It seems you went through a lot of frustration instead of relaxing and enjoying the movie.
Frustration? Nah. It was an interesting challenge. Knots are fun :). (I actually gave up pretty quickly, finished the movie, then went back, found the scene, and got back to figuring-out the knot.)

It's funny how things, and the things you find important, can change. I'd probably watched that movie two or three times, before, and never paid any heed whatsoever to that knot.

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Check with the Ashley Book of Knots. The slip knot/hitch should be in there for you to to gander and and learn to tie.
Don't have that book in my library... yet ;). I'll have to put it on my never-ending wish list.

Then learn the chain hitch that is used on the cod end of nets. One pull and the Cod End opens like a zipper. :D
I wonder if that's similar to what I use to dress excess dock line? (What I do has two names, one of which is "monkey's tail," IIRC. Once again: Google is giving me no joy.) I've also used it, on occasion, to dress short lengths of heavy extension cord. Swedish Furling, discussed in Brion Toss' The Complete Rigger's Apprentice, employs a similar principle.

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Try looking up a "slip clove hitch". We use it to secure fender lines to railings and lifelines. It is easy to tie, easy to untie, and pretty strong.
Yup, I use that one. It's only secure if it remains under load, so I use it sparingly. Yes: It's good for fenders when you're going to be taking them off in short order, but I wouldn't trust it in any situation where said fenders weren't going to be under observation pretty much full-time. Otherwise I prefer a clove hitch or Fisherman's Bend, either backed-up with a half-hitch. (A clove hitch, backed up with a pair of half-hitches is how I secure our dock lines to pilings. I've yet to have one loosen, much less come loose.)

Jim
 

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The other day I was watching Man vs Wild and saw a knot with the same purpose as the one you are describing (although tied differently). IHe called it the kamakaze knot, but t appears to be a sheepshank with the center strand cut. Tension keeps the whole thing together. WHen you get to the bottom, and the tension comes off the knot, it separates. The main piece of line falls to the ground, leaving only a small piece of cord tied to your anchor point.
 

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Of course, the question I have is why the I-beam was so improperly secured on board a naval vessel? (Not to rain on your parade, Jim!) We tend to under-secure things in general and knives are made for "quick-releasing".

Now I'll have to watch that movie again!

You need Ashley, Jim. You've gotten far enough into this that you'll be able to appreciate the book. You can justify the purchase because we've got another couple months of the unmentionable which is just about the amount of time you'll devote to Chapter One! Twenty feet of manila and you'll lack not for winter entertainment. Keeping your eyes on what your hands are doing keeps them from straying to the window and the unmentionable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Of course, the question I have is why the I-beam was so improperly secured on board a naval vessel? ...

Now I'll have to watch that movie again!
Yep, you'll have to watch the movie again. If I told you, it'd be a bit of a spoiler :D

You need Ashley, Jim. You've gotten far enough into this that you'll be able to appreciate the book. You can justify the purchase ...
An' there's the rub. A 10% across-the-board wage reduction by my employer leaves us in a position such that "justification" is no longer sufficient :(. (Not that I'm complaining, mind you! I'm happy to still have a job :).)

I wonder if our public library has it...?

Jim
 

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Semi, dude, you're a card-carrying member of the literati and you watch Steven Segal movies? That guy can't even spell his own name! Ouch. You are one "complex" cat.

I believe the knot you're talking about is the Shotokan Jka Jion (instituted by Master Taiji Kase in 1959). What you saw in the film was only the UNtying part of the kata. Had you watched all the way through the credits (to the outtakes), you would have seen Master Segal pulling the beam into place with the rope and, with a minor flick of his pinky, tying said knot.

Impressough. Truely.
 

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On a side note....

Notice how brown the water is when Seagal is overboard? One of those editorial errors. They're supposed to be in the Pacific, right? Well, the movie was filmed on the USS Alabama in Mobile, AL. Gotta love that muddy water! They used the sub (USS Drum) from Battleship park as well.
 

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I think the point has been missed both by Hollywood and here. I'm unfamiliar with methods of securing weighty items to be hoisted aloft where just a flick of the wrist to release them is a desirable feature. It's sort of like all the movies where you see the container being released to fall upon someone. The bottom might just fall out of one on occasion but there are no container cranes designed for a quick release under a loaded condition. Aside from ruining the whole day of the contents of the container, the crane has a tendency to leap about three feet in the air when this happens and it takes a couple of days to just realign it on it's tracks. Don't ask me how I know this. Hollywood always takes their license at just the part that ruins things for you if you really know the scenario.
 

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Don't you just love the literary license that Hollywood and authors take.
I read one book where the author knew nothing about 17th century ships and tried to use one for the back ground in the plot. "Fending off another ship with a grapnel." :D :D :D :D Yes the author did write that line. :D :p :D :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I think the point has been missed both by Hollywood and here. I'm unfamiliar with methods of securing weighty items to be hoisted aloft where just a flick of the wrist to release them is a desirable feature.
Yes, I can't imagine such a "feature" would usually be desirable. My point wasn't to critique the movie (c'mon, it's a Hollywood shoot-'em-up, after all), but merely to point out an interesting knot, and, as an aside, how my perception of things has changed due to sailing and, as a consequence of that, taking an interest in knots. Two years ago I wouldn't have been able to tie a bowline or clove hitch to save my soul, much less have taken an interest in a knot I'd seen in a movie.

Hollywood always takes their license at just the part that ruins things for you if you really know the scenario.
That's the reason I tend to shun movies about computer and network hacking. Computers and networks are what I do for a living.

Jim
 

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That's why you need Ashley, Jim! If you find it at the library it's likely to be a very old, and potentially valuable, edition of it. It's only recently been back in printing. Course, if you were to show up at the AFOC convention I might know someone who might be willing to lend you his unofficial Taiwanese edition from the '70's!
 
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